In Rememberance.......

Whose infamy?

A citizen soldier's tale lands a blow for historians who say the attack on Pearl Harbor was no surprise

by Colby Cosh

EVEN Second World War buffs may not have heard of Canada's Colonel Murton Adams Seymour. He was a type of 20th-century Canadian that future generations will look upon with amazement; he flew fighter planes in the First World War, was a pioneer aviator between the wars while serving as city solicitor of St. Catharine's, and in 1939 personally planted the organizational seedlings that grew into the massive British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. In short, all he did was win a couple of wars, help found an industry, and build a distinguished legal career.

He died 25 years ago, but his voice was heard last week as the continent is abuzz over a subject near to his heart: the December 7, 1941 Japanese raid on Pearl Harbor that brought the United States into the Second World War. The epic Michael Bay tearjerker Pearl Harbor is currently playing on more than 3,000 cinema screens, bringing with it an orgy of nostalgia and argument. The film avoids the question of whether U.S. politicians and military commanders knew in advance of the attack, but it pushed the long-standing debate on that issue to the forefront. Last month, the St. Catharine's Museum released an affidavit, written by Seymour in 1967, which seems to suggest that someone had foreknowledge.


The affidavit was deposited at the museum by Seymour's widow Elizabeth in 1998. "We've known about it for several years," says curator Arden Phair, "but we issued the news release now to coincide with the movie." In the document, the lifelong Tory Seymour explains that, with the world crisis deepening, the Liberal King government sought him out repeatedly for his aviation and legal know-how. In late 1940, after he proposed forming a company to attract restless American fliers to the Imperial cause, he was "stunned" to find himself put in charge of the entity--the Dominion Aeronautical Association.


On November 30, 1941, Seymour was summoned to the Chateau Laurier in Ottawa by J.L. "Lennie" Apedaile, a fellow officer of the DAA. The next morning, Apedaile informed a thunderstruck Seymour that British military intelligence had received word of a surprise Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, scheduled for December 8. It would be necessary to dissolve the DAA, Apedaile said; the U.S. would soon need all its own pilots. In a difficult December 6 meeting, Seymour told bewildered DAA board members that the company would be winding up, but he could not tell them why. The next day, he heard newsboys crying the incredible news in the streets. It was still only December 7 in Ottawa, but in Japan, it was already the 8th.


Nearly 20 years later, Seymour began to consider writing his story down. He told his tale to C.G. "Chubby" Power, the wartime Air Minister, but Power's only comment was "I wonder why Lennie told you that." In 1972, he wrote to an old school friend--the former Prime Minister, Lester Pearson. Pearson denied that the Brits could have had exact knowledge of the date of the attack, but conceded that both the British and the Americans "had good reason to believe that the Japanese might launch an attack, and on Pearl Harbor, in the early part of December." He advised Seymour not to publish the affidavit, and Seymour kept mum until his death.


The affidavit, while extraordinary, is not likely to change any settled opinions on the issue of whether the British or president Roosevelt knew in advance that Pearl Harbor was to be bombed. Some historians believe that Roosevelt deliberately allowed the bombing in order to wash away strong isolationist sentiment and unite his country behind him. Most concur with the explanation put forth by historian Roberta Wohlstetter in 1962: there were real indications that an attack was imminent, but the "signal" was obscured by contradictory news from other sources and by a fractured chain of command.


Yet troubling facts remain. Roosevelt and his cabinet, we now know, did intend to "maneuver [Japan] into the position of firing the first shot," in the words of Secretary of War Henry Stinson. Other people have come forth with tales similar to Seymour's, although there is no direct corroboration for his story. It is widely agreed that the army and navy commanders at Pearl Harbor, both demoted for "lack of readiness," were deliberately scapegoated by the American high command. Key documents remain classified, 60 years on. And as sure as Pearl Harbor will not be the last movie made about Pearl Harbor, it is certain that Col. Seymour will not be the last eyewitness to throw historians a posthumous curve.





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Worth noting

That the Pearl Harbor Memorial in Hawaii.......has been SANITIZED by the PC crowd....so as not to OFFEND the great number of Japanese tourists that visit.......:mad:
 
remembering....

http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/american-flag/images/photo-06.jpg

one of my dad's older marine buddies....was stationed on the Arizona...he left the morning before the attack for leave....last year...he was all set to go to 50th anniversary there and pay his respects to his friends....and after 9/11 his wife was worried about the flying and stuff...so they didn't go....i hope he gets to travel out there one of these years....<soft smile>
 
Again taking this moment to remember

all the service people past and present. A special sweet thought for one over there now. You know who you are.

Peace,
Tulip
 
Reading through all this thread & posts...

Is a way to memorialize the dead/wounded/survivors. We are losing over a thousand WW2 veterans a day, give one a hug, and say, "Thankyou." :rose: :heart: :rose:
 
I live several miles from Pearl Harbor. I've been to the memorial and it's amazing how when you get aboard the memorial how quiet the place is, even with the tourists. It's as if everyone knows not to talk when they're atop the Arizona...
 
agezinder said:
I live several miles from Pearl Harbor. I've been to the memorial and it's amazing how when you get aboard the memorial how quiet the place is, even with the tourists. It's as if everyone knows not to talk when they're atop the Arizona...

That was how it was when I was there as well, a very hallowed place.

:heart:
 
Re: December 7th....

Lost Cause said:
I put my flag out at midnight, it's lit up so it's legal to hang. It'll stay until midnight tomorrow in rememberance. :rose: :rose:


*I doubt the news agencies will remember anything but a passing sentence.

My flag is always up - we do not dip at sunset here. On November 11, the Maple Leaf is at half-staff for 24 hrs.

Lest we forget. :rose:

In Flanders Fields
the poppies blow
between the crosses,
row on row
that mark our place.
 
I truely thank you all who posted here thorugh the weeks I posted this thread! Marksgirl and I kept it alive from time to time.

As you have read her grandfather was there and one of the Navy Divers to rescue Sailors and entomb others in the Memorial.

Like so many others I too had a relative there. My uncle Joe was suppposed to sail out the moring after church service from Pearl. Lukily his Commander convinced the crew to sail the night before.

They left Pearl around 10 PM and heard of the attack the next morning over the Short Wave Radio. There was saddness and anger from him and his crew, but they could do nothing.

You see my uncle worked on board an oil fuel tanker. They had dropped their load off at Pearl the day and night, before leaving to California. Their tanker had minimal armorment and only machineguns for protection.

They were the lucky ones due to their Commander.

To my Uncle Joe D. Charles and Robert T. Alexander, I salute you where ever you are in the Lords Realm.

:rose: :rose:
 
Innocence ended December 8th, 1941...

To the Congress of the United States:
Yesterday, Dec. 7, 1941 - a date which will live in infamy - the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.

The United States was at peace with that nation and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with the government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific.

Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in Oahu, the Japanese ambassador to the United States and his colleagues delivered to the Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent American message. While this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or armed attack.

It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time, the Japanese government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.

The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. Very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu.

Yesterday, the Japanese government also launched an attack against Malaya.

Last night, Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong.

Last night, Japanese forces attacked Guam.

Last night, Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands.

Last night, the Japanese attacked Wake Island.

This morning, the Japanese attacked Midway Island.

Japan has, therefore, undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.

As commander in chief of the Army and Navy, I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense.

Always will we remember the character of the onslaught against us.

No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory.

I believe I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but will make very certain that this form of treachery shall never endanger us again.

Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger.

With confidence in our armed forces - with the unbounding determination of our people - we will gain the inevitable triumph - so help us God.

I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, Dec. 7, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese empire.

FDR to Congress :rose:
 
60 Years later, a similar speech...

"In the normal course of events, Presidents come to this chamber to report on the state of the Union. Tonight, no such report is needed. It has already been delivered by the American people.

We have seen it in the courage of passengers, who rushed terrorists to save others on the ground -- passengers like an exceptional man named Todd Beamer. And would you please help me to welcome his wife, Lisa Beamer, here tonight. (Applause.)

We have seen the state of our Union in the endurance of rescuers, working past exhaustion. We have seen the unfurling of flags, the lighting of candles, the giving of blood, the saying of prayers -- in English, Hebrew, and Arabic. We have seen the decency of a loving and giving people who have made the grief of strangers their own.

My fellow citizens, for the last nine days, the entire world has seen for itself the state of our Union -- and it is strong. (Applause.)

Tonight we are a country awakened to danger and called to defend freedom. Our grief has turned to anger, and anger to resolution. Whether we bring our enemies to justice, or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done. (Applause.)

I thank the Congress for its leadership at such an important time. All of America was touched on the evening of the tragedy to see Republicans and Democrats joined together on the steps of this Capitol, singing "God Bless America." And you did more than sing; you acted, by delivering $40 billion to rebuild our communities and meet the needs of our military.

Speaker Hastert, Minority Leader Gephardt, Majority Leader Daschle and Senator Lott, I thank you for your friendship, for your leadership and for your service to our country. (Applause.)

And on behalf of the American people, I thank the world for its outpouring of support. America will never forget the sounds of our National Anthem playing at Buckingham Palace, on the streets of Paris, and at Berlin's Brandenburg Gate.

We will not forget South Korean children gathering to pray outside our embassy in Seoul, or the prayers of sympathy offered at a mosque in Cairo. We will not forget moments of silence and days of mourning in Australia and Africa and Latin America.

Nor will we forget the citizens of 80 other nations who died with our own: dozens of Pakistanis; more than 130 Israelis; more than 250 citizens of India; men and women from El Salvador, Iran, Mexico and Japan; and hundreds of British citizens. America has no truer friend than Great Britain. (Applause.) Once again, we are joined together in a great cause -- so honored the British Prime Minister has crossed an ocean to show his unity of purpose with America. Thank you for coming, friend. (Applause.)

On September the 11th, enemies of freedom committed an act of war against our country. Americans have known wars -- but for the past 136 years, they have been wars on foreign soil, except for one Sunday in 1941. Americans have known the casualties of war -- but not at the center of a great city on a peaceful morning. Americans have known surprise attacks -- but never before on thousands of civilians. All of this was brought upon us in a single day -- and night fell on a different world, a world where freedom itself is under attack.

Americans have many questions tonight. Americans are asking: Who attacked our country? The evidence we have gathered all points to a collection of loosely affiliated terrorist organizations known as al Qaeda. They are the same murderers indicted for bombing American embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, and responsible for bombing the USS Cole.

Al Qaeda is to terror what the mafia is to crime. But its goal is not making money; its goal is remaking the world -- and imposing its radical beliefs on people everywhere.

The terrorists practice a fringe form of Islamic extremism that has been rejected by Muslim scholars and the vast majority of Muslim clerics -- a fringe movement that perverts the peaceful teachings of Islam. The terrorists' directive commands them to kill Christians and Jews, to kill all Americans, and make no distinction among military and civilians, including women and children.

This group and its leader -- a person named Osama bin Laden -- are linked to many other organizations in different countries, including the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. There are thousands of these terrorists in more than 60 countries. They are recruited from their own nations and neighborhoods and brought to camps in places like Afghanistan, where they are trained in the tactics of terror. They are sent back to their homes or sent to hide in countries around the world to plot evil and destruction.

The leadership of al Qaeda has great influence in Afghanistan and supports the Taliban regime in controlling most of that country. In Afghanistan, we see al Qaeda's vision for the world.

Afghanistan's people have been brutalized -- many are starving and many have fled. Women are not allowed to attend school. You can be jailed for owning a television. Religion can be practiced only as their leaders dictate. A man can be jailed in Afghanistan if his beard is not long enough.

The United States respects the people of Afghanistan -- after all, we are currently its largest source of humanitarian aid -- but we condemn the Taliban regime. (Applause.) It is not only repressing its own people, it is threatening people everywhere by sponsoring and sheltering and supplying terrorists. By aiding and abetting murder, the Taliban regime is committing murder.

And tonight, the United States of America makes the following demands on the Taliban: Deliver to United States authorities all the leaders of al Qaeda who hide in your land. (Applause.) Release all foreign nationals, including American citizens, you have unjustly imprisoned. Protect foreign journalists, diplomats and aid workers in your country. Close immediately and permanently every terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, and hand over every terrorist, and every person in their support structure, to appropriate authorities. (Applause.) Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps, so we can make sure they are no longer operating.

These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion. (Applause.) The Taliban must act, and act immediately. They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate.

I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It's practiced freely by many millions of Americans, and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah. (Applause.) The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them. (Applause.)

Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated. (Applause.)

Americans are asking, why do they hate us? They hate what we see right here in this chamber -- a democratically elected government. Their leaders are self-appointed. They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other.

They want to overthrow existing governments in many Muslim countries, such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. They want to drive Israel out of the Middle East. They want to drive Christians and Jews out of vast regions of Asia and Africa.

These terrorists kill not merely to end lives, but to disrupt and end a way of life. With every atrocity, they hope that America grows fearful, retreating from the world and forsaking our friends. They stand against us, because we stand in their way.

We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before. They are the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions -- by abandoning every value except the will to power -- they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies. (Applause.)

Americans are asking: How will we fight and win this war? We will direct every resource at our command -- every means of diplomacy, every tool of intelligence, every instrument of law enforcement, every financial influence, and every necessary weapon of war -- to the disruption and to the defeat of the global terror network.

This war will not be like the war against Iraq a decade ago, with a decisive liberation of territory and a swift conclusion. It will not look like the air war above Kosovo two years ago, where no ground troops were used and not a single American was lost in combat.

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. (Applause.) From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.

Our nation has been put on notice: We are not immune from attack. We will take defensive measures against terrorism to protect Americans. Today, dozens of federal departments and agencies, as well as state and local governments, have responsibilities affecting homeland security. These efforts must be coordinated at the highest level. So tonight I announce the creation of a Cabinet-level position reporting directly to me -- the Office of Homeland Security.

And tonight I also announce a distinguished American to lead this effort, to strengthen American security: a military veteran, an effective governor, a true patriot, a trusted friend -- Pennsylvania's Tom Ridge. (Applause.) He will lead, oversee and coordinate a comprehensive national strategy to safeguard our country against terrorism, and respond to any attacks that may come.

These measures are essential. But the only way to defeat terrorism as a threat to our way of life is to stop it, eliminate it, and destroy it where it grows. (Applause.)

Many will be involved in this effort, from FBI agents to intelligence operatives to the reservists we have called to active duty. All deserve our thanks, and all have our prayers. And tonight, a few miles from the damaged Pentagon, I have a message for our military: Be ready. I've called the Armed Forces to alert, and there is a reason. The hour is coming when America will act, and you will make us proud. (Applause.)

This is not, however, just America's fight. And what is at stake is not just America's freedom. This is the world's fight. This is civilization's fight. This is the fight of all who believe in progress and pluralism, tolerance and freedom.

We ask every nation to join us. We will ask, and we will need, the help of police forces, intelligence services, and banking systems around the world. The United States is grateful that many nations and many international organizations have already responded -- with sympathy and with support. Nations from Latin America, to Asia, to Africa, to Europe, to the Islamic world. Perhaps the NATO Charter reflects best the attitude of the world: An attack on one is an attack on all.

The civilized world is rallying to America's side. They understand that if this terror goes unpunished, their own cities, their own citizens may be next. Terror, unanswered, can not only bring down buildings, it can threaten the stability of legitimate governments. And you know what -- we're not going to allow it. (Applause.)

Americans are asking: What is expected of us? I ask you to live your lives, and hug your children. I know many citizens have fears tonight, and I ask you to be calm and resolute, even in the face of a continuing threat.

I ask you to uphold the values of America, and remember why so many have come here. We are in a fight for our principles, and our first responsibility is to live by them. No one should be singled out for unfair treatment or unkind words because of their ethnic background or religious faith. (Applause.)

I ask you to continue to support the victims of this tragedy with your contributions. Those who want to give can go to a central source of information, libertyunites.org, to find the names of groups providing direct help in New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia.

The thousands of FBI agents who are now at work in this investigation may need your cooperation, and I ask you to give it.

I ask for your patience, with the delays and inconveniences that may accompany tighter security; and for your patience in what will be a long struggle.

I ask your continued participation and confidence in the American economy. Terrorists attacked a symbol of American prosperity. They did not touch its source. America is successful because of the hard work, and creativity, and enterprise of our people. These were the true strengths of our economy before September 11th, and they are our strengths today. (Applause.)

And, finally, please continue praying for the victims of terror and their families, for those in uniform, and for our great country. Prayer has comforted us in sorrow, and will help strengthen us for the journey ahead.

Tonight I thank my fellow Americans for what you have already done and for what you will do. And ladies and gentlemen of the Congress, I thank you, their representatives, for what you have already done and for what we will do together.

Tonight, we face new and sudden national challenges. We will come together to improve air safety, to dramatically expand the number of air marshals on domestic flights, and take new measures to prevent hijacking. We will come together to promote stability and keep our airlines flying, with direct assistance during this emergency. (Applause.)

We will come together to give law enforcement the additional tools it needs to track down terror here at home. (Applause.) We will come together to strengthen our intelligence capabilities to know the plans of terrorists before they act, and find them before they strike. (Applause.)

We will come together to take active steps that strengthen America's economy, and put our people back to work.

Tonight we welcome two leaders who embody the extraordinary spirit of all New Yorkers: Governor George Pataki, and Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. (Applause.) As a symbol of America's resolve, my administration will work with Congress, and these two leaders, to show the world that we will rebuild New York City. (Applause.)

After all that has just passed -- all the lives taken, and all the possibilities and hopes that died with them -- it is natural to wonder if America's future is one of fear. Some speak of an age of terror. I know there are struggles ahead, and dangers to face. But this country will define our times, not be defined by them. As long as the United States of America is determined and strong, this will not be an age of terror; this will be an age of liberty, here and across the world. (Applause.)

Great harm has been done to us. We have suffered great loss. And in our grief and anger we have found our mission and our moment. Freedom and fear are at war. The advance of human freedom -- the great achievement of our time, and the great hope of every time -- now depends on us. Our nation -- this generation -- will lift a dark threat of violence from our people and our future. We will rally the world to this cause by our efforts, by our courage. We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail. (Applause.)

It is my hope that in the months and years ahead, life will return almost to normal. We'll go back to our lives and routines, and that is good. Even grief recedes with time and grace. But our resolve must not pass. Each of us will remember what happened that day, and to whom it happened. We'll remember the moment the news came -- where we were and what we were doing. Some will remember an image of a fire, or a story of rescue. Some will carry memories of a face and a voice gone forever.

And I will carry this: It is the police shield of a man named George Howard, who died at the World Trade Center trying to save others. It was given to me by his mom, Arlene, as a proud memorial to her son. This is my reminder of lives that ended, and a task that does not end. (Applause.)

I will not forget this wound to our country or those who inflicted it. I will not yield; I will not rest; I will not relent in waging this struggle for freedom and security for the American people.

The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them. (Applause.)

Fellow citizens, we'll meet violence with patient justice -- assured of the rightness of our cause, and confident of the victories to come. In all that lies before us, may God grant us wisdom, and may He watch over the United States of America."

President George W. Bush to Congress 2001 :rose:
 
Remember them indeed as we all should but...

Bush is about to provide us all with a new lot to remember in 60 years time...

ppman
 
Leave it to pp to piss on a memorial...

This thread was about an significant change of American world innocence through an event. It's not about pissant partisan politics, but your hatred could not let you be civil. Don't you have an event to memorialize like "peace in our time" or Dunkirk, or Galipoli?
 
Re: Leave it to pp to piss on a memorial...


Honour the dead but remember the living...

ppman
 
Salute

Thank you to Tank for starting this thread. Perhaps I'm a bit late in posting my salute, please forgive me as I just found this thread today.

I too am a veteran of the U. S. Navy. I'm proud to have served my country, and would do it again. To ALL the service men and women who are now in the military, I salute you. To all the veterans who have served in the past I also salute you. To those who will serve in the future, I pray that you will remember the sacrifice that has been given in the past, and will uphold the honor of those men and women.

Again Tank, Thank you!
 
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