CelestialBody
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Important: Palestianians
- Thread starter CelestialBody
- Start date
Juan Trickpony
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CelestialBody said:
Exactly what have we been doing, oh grateful world?
CelestialBody
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cymbidia
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CB, why post such a thing here if
1. you're not prepared to defend its assertions?
or
2. you're not prepared to be outraged at its views?
Why did you post that without any commentary explaining your reasoning? What are we supposed to do with it now?
If you're for the views stated there, please say so, and tell us why.
If you're opposed to the views stated in that letter, please indicate that and say why.
Don't just post something like that and leave it lying there, like a dead dog in the middle of the road, stinking to high heaven.
1. you're not prepared to defend its assertions?
or
2. you're not prepared to be outraged at its views?
Why did you post that without any commentary explaining your reasoning? What are we supposed to do with it now?
If you're for the views stated there, please say so, and tell us why.
If you're opposed to the views stated in that letter, please indicate that and say why.
Don't just post something like that and leave it lying there, like a dead dog in the middle of the road, stinking to high heaven.
CelestialBody
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I personally thought
shadowsource
A Flash In The Pain
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The Palestinians -
have never attacked the US in all the years of their struggle. You don't see their names on the list published by the FBI - as you see names from our allies in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Morocco, the UAE, etc.
have never attacked the US in all the years of their struggle. You don't see their names on the list published by the FBI - as you see names from our allies in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Morocco, the UAE, etc.
Thumper
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Re: Re: Important: Palestianians
We have defended the Palestinians?
When.
It seems convenient to turn a blind eye to the situation between Israel and it's Palestinian citizens. Maybe it is because looking at it would be a bit uncomfortable. The majority of the Palestinians are not terrorists or violent. They are oppressed however. Where there is smoke there is fire. The civil rights movement in this country in the 60's wasn't just a fad....it was born out of the seperate but equal(yeah right) lunacy of our societal structure.
Look at both sides of the issue instead of taking Israel's opinions alone.
Juan Trickpony said:
We have defended the Palestinians?
When.
It seems convenient to turn a blind eye to the situation between Israel and it's Palestinian citizens. Maybe it is because looking at it would be a bit uncomfortable. The majority of the Palestinians are not terrorists or violent. They are oppressed however. Where there is smoke there is fire. The civil rights movement in this country in the 60's wasn't just a fad....it was born out of the seperate but equal(yeah right) lunacy of our societal structure.
Look at both sides of the issue instead of taking Israel's opinions alone.
shadowsource
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The first terrorist attacks in the Middle East -
- were committed against the British, by the Israelis. If you rent the movie EXODUS, you'll see the bombing of the King David hotel, which killed numerous British officers after World War II. Shamir, who arranged the bombing, became Prime Minister after Begin, who was also a terrorist.
I don't oppose Israel's right to exist, but I do oppose all settlements.
- were committed against the British, by the Israelis. If you rent the movie EXODUS, you'll see the bombing of the King David hotel, which killed numerous British officers after World War II. Shamir, who arranged the bombing, became Prime Minister after Begin, who was also a terrorist.
I don't oppose Israel's right to exist, but I do oppose all settlements.
The following article was taken from the Friday edition of the International Jerusalem Post. I'm not stating here that all Palestinians are celebrating or even in agreement with the events that occured on September 11, 2001. But it is interesting to note that the Palestinian Authority has seemingly decided that news journalists from around the world should not be given the right of freedom of the press to show the world events which are occuring within the PA's dominion. This especially true after the backlash of horror from news accounts of Palestinians celebrating in the streets. (which, in fact, was celebrating the attack on the US - and not the withdrawal of Israeli forces.)
"Palestinians rally for bin Laden
"Hundreds of Palestinian members of Hamas demonstrated today in Gaza City, in Ramallah, and the Nuseirat refugee camp in Jericho, Israel Radio reported.
At the rallies in Gaza and Ramallah, demonstrators waved pictures of terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden. Palestinian policemen seized videotapes of the event taken by cameramen working for foreign networks and ordered them not to film any further."
In another article, it was stated that a foreign journalist, recording celebrations of the attack on the US, was detained by the Palestinian Authority, his videotape confiscated and told his life would not be in danger if he chose not to record the events further. In other words, typical harassment of the the press to not release pictures to the world of the what is happening under the Palestinian Authority in those areas where they have control.
Of course, it is not strange that the US news nor CNN has not covered this. These journalists are not Isreali. Of course, the news source comes from the "evil" Israeli point of view - something seemingly deemed unworthy on this board.
"Palestinians rally for bin Laden
"Hundreds of Palestinian members of Hamas demonstrated today in Gaza City, in Ramallah, and the Nuseirat refugee camp in Jericho, Israel Radio reported.
At the rallies in Gaza and Ramallah, demonstrators waved pictures of terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden. Palestinian policemen seized videotapes of the event taken by cameramen working for foreign networks and ordered them not to film any further."
In another article, it was stated that a foreign journalist, recording celebrations of the attack on the US, was detained by the Palestinian Authority, his videotape confiscated and told his life would not be in danger if he chose not to record the events further. In other words, typical harassment of the the press to not release pictures to the world of the what is happening under the Palestinian Authority in those areas where they have control.
Of course, it is not strange that the US news nor CNN has not covered this. These journalists are not Isreali. Of course, the news source comes from the "evil" Israeli point of view - something seemingly deemed unworthy on this board.
Thumper
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Israeli viewpoint unworthy!
That is laughable. Truly.
There has been a literal hands off policy in regards to criticizing Israel. In here and in general. As soon as anyone tries to say anything remotely critical of Israel they, and a lot of American conservatives, scream "Anti-Semitism".
Why would the Palestinian Authority try to limit access to and recording of the Hamas celebration? I'll tell you why. Because it is inflammatory and one sided. It hurts any real efforts at peace that the majority of Palestinians are working/hoping for. And maybe, just maybe, it is an attempt at decorum.
How would we look to the world if all that was publicized were the KKK and Aryan Nation rallies? Or if the only people quoted and given "press" from the US were the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson? The world would no doubt regard all Americans as ignorant and as malevolent as the rhetoric spewed by these marginal idiots. The only side we ever see of the Palestinians is of the violent rock throwing element. Israel prefers it that way.
FYI this pic was on the USA Today site...similar ones were in the paper. It is a picture of Palestinian children at a memorial service for the victims of Tuesday's atrocities.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/gallery/wreax3/pales.jpg
I can hear it now....somehow, someone will equate this with an endorsement of terrorism. Demagogues.
That is laughable. Truly.
There has been a literal hands off policy in regards to criticizing Israel. In here and in general. As soon as anyone tries to say anything remotely critical of Israel they, and a lot of American conservatives, scream "Anti-Semitism".
Why would the Palestinian Authority try to limit access to and recording of the Hamas celebration? I'll tell you why. Because it is inflammatory and one sided. It hurts any real efforts at peace that the majority of Palestinians are working/hoping for. And maybe, just maybe, it is an attempt at decorum.
How would we look to the world if all that was publicized were the KKK and Aryan Nation rallies? Or if the only people quoted and given "press" from the US were the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson? The world would no doubt regard all Americans as ignorant and as malevolent as the rhetoric spewed by these marginal idiots. The only side we ever see of the Palestinians is of the violent rock throwing element. Israel prefers it that way.
FYI this pic was on the USA Today site...similar ones were in the paper. It is a picture of Palestinian children at a memorial service for the victims of Tuesday's atrocities.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/gallery/wreax3/pales.jpg
I can hear it now....somehow, someone will equate this with an endorsement of terrorism. Demagogues.
shadowsource
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Very well said, Thumper!
Thumper said:
TygerEyez
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Not helping?
"The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.
As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtse. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.
They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.
The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.
I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.
Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon?
You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.
When the Americans get out of this bind ... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.
Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.
I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.
This year's disasters .. with the year less than half-over… has taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped."
This was said by a Canadian Radio DJ, Gordon Sinclaire.
"The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.
As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtse. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.
They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.
The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.
I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.
Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon?
You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.
When the Americans get out of this bind ... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.
Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.
I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.
This year's disasters .. with the year less than half-over… has taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped."
This was said by a Canadian Radio DJ, Gordon Sinclaire.
Re: Not helping?
When was this written? 'Cause that info about the dollar against the mark is just not true. The exchange rate is the highest it's been in several years. Well, it's a bit down right now, but overall, it's pretty damn high!
Licci~Nicci said:
When was this written? 'Cause that info about the dollar against the mark is just not true. The exchange rate is the highest it's been in several years. Well, it's a bit down right now, but overall, it's pretty damn high!
Thumper
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It is from the 70's April
I remember hearing it and reading it during the hostage crisis.
Which by the way we had a huge hand in causing.
I don't intend to take away from the good things we have done. (A sense of humility makes it difficult for me to say that, I have always thought tooting your own horn is rather boorish)
I am just playing at counterpoint. Incidentally I think doing so is what led to the proper execution of Desert Storm. Patience, intelligence and coordination of our allies. I am sure our government will take the same path this time.
Anyway, the hostage crisis in 1979 was a direct result of US meddling in the internal affairs of Iran. Their people duly elected a leader which our administration was not fond of. He wasn't "pro west/anti communist enough. Our CIA played a large part in ousting him and installing the Shah who, by the CIA's own description. was a coward. But he served our purpose in being staunchly pro western. He was also a despot. I remember when he visited in the early 70's and seeing the Iranian students protesting against him and his secret police, the "Savak". They knew he was a puppet of the US and they grew to hate us as much as they did him. When he became ill and was deposed they naturally took out their anger, not only on the puppet, but also those they saw as pulling his strings. Those wounds are starting to heal....if we let them.
None of this suggests that the events of 22 years ago or last Tuesday are excusable. They aren't. Understanding the source of the hatred will maybe just make it possible that our children don't have to witness what happened on Tuesday. We now need to weed the garden. If all we do is tear out the noxious weeds and then leave it as is...they will grow back in time.
shadow was dead on..."The enemy of my enemy is my friend" philosophy gave us a lot of enemies.
Now....going to Home Depot to get a hoe. (They got the best looking hoes)
Gonna do some weedin'
I remember hearing it and reading it during the hostage crisis.
Which by the way we had a huge hand in causing.
I don't intend to take away from the good things we have done. (A sense of humility makes it difficult for me to say that, I have always thought tooting your own horn is rather boorish)
I am just playing at counterpoint. Incidentally I think doing so is what led to the proper execution of Desert Storm. Patience, intelligence and coordination of our allies. I am sure our government will take the same path this time.
Anyway, the hostage crisis in 1979 was a direct result of US meddling in the internal affairs of Iran. Their people duly elected a leader which our administration was not fond of. He wasn't "pro west/anti communist enough. Our CIA played a large part in ousting him and installing the Shah who, by the CIA's own description. was a coward. But he served our purpose in being staunchly pro western. He was also a despot. I remember when he visited in the early 70's and seeing the Iranian students protesting against him and his secret police, the "Savak". They knew he was a puppet of the US and they grew to hate us as much as they did him. When he became ill and was deposed they naturally took out their anger, not only on the puppet, but also those they saw as pulling his strings. Those wounds are starting to heal....if we let them.
None of this suggests that the events of 22 years ago or last Tuesday are excusable. They aren't. Understanding the source of the hatred will maybe just make it possible that our children don't have to witness what happened on Tuesday. We now need to weed the garden. If all we do is tear out the noxious weeds and then leave it as is...they will grow back in time.
shadow was dead on..."The enemy of my enemy is my friend" philosophy gave us a lot of enemies.
Now....going to Home Depot to get a hoe. (They got the best looking hoes)
Gonna do some weedin'
Cheyenne
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Re: Not helping?
I've actually had that editorial sent to me over and over in email this week, every time by people who obviously didn't read it and figure out that it couldn't have been written recently. It is at least 20 years old and could be up to 30 years old.
We learned from Bratcat that this guy has been dead for 20 years in another thread.Licci~Nicci said:
I've actually had that editorial sent to me over and over in email this week, every time by people who obviously didn't read it and figure out that it couldn't have been written recently. It is at least 20 years old and could be up to 30 years old.
Bigdog
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"Hands off policy in regards to criticizing Israel'??
Now, THAT is laughable - obviously you don't watch any American TV news whatsoever. The Israelis are always the the ones being criticized. And the underlying evidence here has been the same.
I was only trying to point out that the PA does, in fact, practice censorship to its own end. That is something that gets to me. (Granted it happens in all societies to a degree) I had thought those who posted here were also opposed to censorship. I was obviously mistaken.
Yes, I've seen the pic you posted the link to. And?? What is the point? I never said all Palestinians were celebrating. I also ascribe to the "believe only half of what you see and nothing of what you hear". A picture is a picture - easily set up to make a viewer believe what they wish.
It is also interesting that in the beginning post regarding an email sent, it refers to bombing occuring around Bethlehem. As far as I have been able to research, there is no activity in that area - and hasn't been for a while. Action is occuring around Jericho. Puts doubt in my mind as to the origin of the email and the truth behind it.
But then - who's doing much research during this time?
Now, THAT is laughable - obviously you don't watch any American TV news whatsoever. The Israelis are always the the ones being criticized. And the underlying evidence here has been the same.
I was only trying to point out that the PA does, in fact, practice censorship to its own end. That is something that gets to me. (Granted it happens in all societies to a degree) I had thought those who posted here were also opposed to censorship. I was obviously mistaken.
Yes, I've seen the pic you posted the link to. And?? What is the point? I never said all Palestinians were celebrating. I also ascribe to the "believe only half of what you see and nothing of what you hear". A picture is a picture - easily set up to make a viewer believe what they wish.
It is also interesting that in the beginning post regarding an email sent, it refers to bombing occuring around Bethlehem. As far as I have been able to research, there is no activity in that area - and hasn't been for a while. Action is occuring around Jericho. Puts doubt in my mind as to the origin of the email and the truth behind it.
But then - who's doing much research during this time?
alexander tzara
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SexyChele said:
I'm pretty sure Israel uses its own forms of censorship and propaganda, too. Different countries and society's live by different philosophies and rules. You can't expect the whole world to step in line with the American Constitution or ideas about freedom of press just because it works for you. Even in the UK, one of the closest countries to America in philosophy and culture, we don't have absolute freedom of speech, and I'm happy with that. I personally believe in a certain degree of censorship. I'm glad, for instance, that hateful organisations like the National Front or the Irish Republican and Loyalist terrorists aren't allowed to openly preach hate through the UK media. We live by a different set of rules and philosophies than you do in America. Doesn't neccessarily mean that your system is better than ours, or vice versa, just different.
I know you're only expressing your opinion about censorship, and there's nothing at all wrong with that, but I'm just wondering why some people here are so keen to see Palestine as our enemy when there's no evidence that it is. Is it because they're an Arab country or because they're anti-Israeli?
I agree that there seems something not quite right about the email you were sent, Celestial Body. I don't know why but I get the impression for some reason that it might have been written by someone in the West.
Last edited:
Cheyenne
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Bigdog said:
For those like me who are usually too lazy to click to the links:
Origins: On June 5 1973, Canadian radio commentator Gordon Sinclair decided he'd had enough of the stream of criticism and negative press recently directed at the United States of America by foreign journalists (primarily over America's long military involvement in Vietnam, which had ended with the signing of the Paris Peace Accords six months earlier). When he arrived at radio station CFRB in Toronto that morning, he spent twenty minutes dashing off a two-page editorial defending the USA against its carping critics which he then delivered in a defiant, indignant tone during his "Let's Be Personal" spot at 11:45 AM that day.
The unusualness of any foreign correspondent -- even one from a country with such close ties to the USA as Canada -- delivering such a caustic commentary about those who would dare to criticize the USA is best demonstrated by the fact that even thirty years later, many Americans doubt that this piece (which has been circulating on the Internet in the slightly-altered form quoted above as something "recently" printed in a Toronto newspaper) is real. It is real, and it received a great deal of attention in its day. After Sinclair's editorial was rebroadcast by a few American radio stations, it spread like wildfire all over the country. It was played again and again (often superimposed over a piece of inspirational music such as "Battle Hymn of the Republic" or "Bridge Over Troubled Waters"), read into the Congressional Record multiple times, and finally released on a record (titled "The Americans"), with all royalties donated to the American Red Cross. (A Detroit radio broadcaster named Byron MacGregor recorded and released an unauthorized version of the piece which hit the record stores before Sinclair's official version; an infringement suit was avoided when MacGregor agreed to donate his profits to the Red Cross as well).
Sinclair passed away in 1984, but he will long be remembered on both sides of the U.S.-Canadian border -- both for his contributions to journalism, and for his loudly proclaiming what no one else at the time would stand up and say.
Thumper
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Laughing
Since when has any American President or other high ranking politico said anything remotely critical of Israel's policies regarding Palestine?
Sure we may suggest they be "nicer"
The Palestinian Authority should be concerned about inflammatory reporting. How can they work towards a peaceful solution if the whole world only sees the militant minority?
Staged? I thought some would think that. I suppose that if something doesn't agree with your already set in stone beliefs it must be a lie or doctored up. It is easier and more convenient to see all Palestinians as terroristic militants than to get at the truth. That stance fits our image and our policies.
I do watch the news and read the papers and also the news magazines...
Since when has any American President or other high ranking politico said anything remotely critical of Israel's policies regarding Palestine?
Sure we may suggest they be "nicer"
The Palestinian Authority should be concerned about inflammatory reporting. How can they work towards a peaceful solution if the whole world only sees the militant minority?
Staged? I thought some would think that. I suppose that if something doesn't agree with your already set in stone beliefs it must be a lie or doctored up. It is easier and more convenient to see all Palestinians as terroristic militants than to get at the truth. That stance fits our image and our policies.
I do watch the news and read the papers and also the news magazines...
M
miles
Guest
SexyChele
Very nice av, Sexy Chele.
Very nice av, Sexy Chele.
