If They Were...

[Recidiva]

Honesty often comes when nobody's looking. I think this is a challenge for authors because they know someone will ultimately look and see what they don't wish to be seen for whatever reason they might have.

If you had this to work with:

A main character who undertakes an action. No limits on what this could be.

A secondary character upon whom action is taken. No limits on what this could be.

The secondary character must possess something ideal to the main character. They have to stand for something powerful. It can be love, it can be hate, it can be revenge, it can be reconciliation, it can be anything desired or feared.

Space with absolutely no consequences. No law. No limits. This will mean that the main character won't be punished, but also won't be rewarded for their actions.

The clearest action toward an ideal without fear of or longing for a consequence.

So this is author Mad Libs. Choose an ideal. Choose a missing consequence. Write about it.

Variations of course, as inspiration strikes or fails to due to the starting place.

 

[captain lola]

No ideas of my own just yet.
This concept reminds me of the story "Fermata" by Nicholson Baker. Someone learned how to freeze time, stop action all around while leaving himself free to move about without anyone else's knowledge. He choose to use this thing he could do to secretly undress women and stare at them from every angle. Then he would put their clothes back on and start time again with no one the wiser.

Now is this something like what you had in mind Recidiva?

 

[Recidiva]

No ideas of my own just yet.
This concept reminds me of the story "Fermata" by Nicholson Baker. Someone learned how to freeze time, stop action all around while leaving himself free to move about without anyone else's knowledge. He choose to use this thing he could do to secretly undress women and stare at them from every angle. Then he would put their clothes back on and start time again with no one the wiser.

Now is this something like what you had in mind Recidiva?

Fermata is a great title. The symbol in music to make you hold a note.

Yeah, something like that. I imagine for everyone it would be different. Makes me wonder whether the author wanted to look at women or condemn what was done to these women, illustrating an example.

Which do you think?

 

[captain lola]

Fermata is a great title. The symbol in music to make you hold a note.

Yeah, something like that. I imagine for everyone it would be different. Makes me wonder whether the author wanted to look at women or condemn what was done to these women, illustrating an example.

Which do you think?

The main character was quite worshipful of women and what they have (to his mind)... I think the story was more about his fantasies and fears than about the women he idolized.

It also reminds me of another story used in the film Talk to Her, where a nurse falls in love with his comatose patient. It's interesting that his love for her probably had a lot to do with and felt safe to him, because of the lack of consequences.

I can imagine that there would be something fundamentally passive about the type of person who would enjoy taking action under the circumstances you outlined.

Your concept also keeps leading me to the idea of memory loss, or comatose or dream states, where things can be said and done and felt deeply and then forgotten.

 

[Recidiva]

The main character was quite worshipful of women and what they have (to his mind)... I think the story was more about his fantasies and fears than about the women he idolized.

It also reminds me of another story used in the film Talk to Her, where a nurse falls in love with his comatose patient. It's interesting that his love for her probably had a lot to do with and felt safe to him, because of the lack of consequences.

I can imagine that there would be something fundamentally passive about the type of person who would enjoy taking action under the circumstances you outlined.

Your concept also keeps leading me to the idea of memory loss, or comatose or dream states, where things can be said and done and felt deeply and then forgotten.

It can help to define layers of motivation.

Why we can talk to strangers at times when we can't talk to the people close to the event. Why we keep secrets.

I think we idealize actions and motivations as if they were pure things, never changing, unquenchable.

People say they'll love forever, and then after some actions are taken, the purity of love can fade. That's in itself pure.

What is "right now" is not forever, and I think it helps people to analyze the action in terms of what happens after it is taken.

I think it's interesting because I wouldn't be a person to run around taking people's clothes off...but I like to know that someone would want to, and why.

Now if that person takes one million pairs of clothes off, they might eventually get sick of putting someone's bra on just right and decide it's too fussy and go play video games instead. They'll need a new game. They're experienced, they're disillusioned, naked ladies can get old.

But the person constantly fantasizing about this...and never doing it...will never wear out that fantasy.

The consequences of a pure action affect why we take it. The ability to take a pure action without consequence can often land people flat on their ass because...well, now I did it. What's next?

An action, once taken, has a consequence of no longer dreaming about that action. The next action is always impacted by the internal reaction to the first action.

I think my point is that we always provide our own consequences internally, real or not.

Most people that don't consider consequences take pure action all the time, no concern about what will happen, they just do it.

So people can write at times enamored of fantasy and consequence, but not action or motivation.

How many authors write the most obvious of outcomes as if it were a revelation simply because that's their fantasy and they haven't gone there themselves...they only idealize it?

 

[Songcatcher]

Don't wast any of your time on Nicholson Baker.

 

[Recidiva]

Don't wast any of your time on Nicholson Baker.

Okay, want me to waste it on you instead?

 

[Songcatcher]

Yes, pleaz.

 

[Recidiva]

Yes, pleaz.

Okay! Well, where shall I direct my attention?

 

[captain lola]

An action, once taken, has a consequence of no longer dreaming about that action. The next action is always impacted by the internal reaction to the first action.

The magical definition of the chase.

 

[Recidiva]

The magical definition of the chase.

Well, that's exactly it. Guys will often chase a woman until they catch her...then something's gone, something they want back.

You're not going to "DO" a long term relationship well unless you set another goal. Not "get her/him in bed" but set the next goal, the bar a little higher...whether it's to get them to beg or get them to cry because you know they need it.

You're not going to "DO" short term relationships well unless you're completely comfortable being alone at any time.

Behind every attained goal is another one. Some people feel they're walking in place because they just won't take that next step, it's a doozy and they're not on solid ground, so they won't go.

 

[Stella_Omega]

That's the thing of it. I often write about idolisation, about someone with a crush on another person. Usually in my stories, the protagonist gets a chance at their crush, and then- where do you go from there? You become two people, every time. You don't get to worship from afar any longer.
Your idol turns out to have... a drinking problem, or a senile mother, or a job they hate, or any number of intrusive issues.
My characters Tracy and Stella- He's the Rock Star, that she goes after. But she's the one who becomes the goddess in his mind, and it's partly because she has less baggage than he does. She has a decent family, her talents don't entail bi-polar disorder, she's willing to be a fan instead of compete with him in his field.
And his nuttiness doesn't push any buttons for her. She's willing to let him act out, or cope, depending.
I think it makes her seem a little bit distanced, to him, he can still worship from afar, even if it's only in his own mind. And she's savvy enough to know that, and keep herself independent as best as she's able.
It occurs to me, you're going to like this guy, Recidiva, he's your kind...

Sorry if this is incoherent!

 

[Recidiva]

That's the thing of it. I often write about idolisation, about someone with a crush on another person. Usually in my stories, the protagonist gets a chance at their crush, and then- where do you go from there? You become two people, every time. You don't get to worship from afar any longer.
Your idol turns out to have... a drinking problem, or a senile mother, or a job they hate, or any number of intrusive issues.
My characters Tracy and Stella- He's the Rock Star, that she goes after. But she's the one who becomes the goddess in his mind, and it's partly because she has less baggage than he does. She has a decent family, her talents don't entail bi-polar disorder, she's willing to be a fan instead of compete with him in his field.
And his nuttiness doesn't push any buttons for her. She's willing to let him act out, or cope, depending.
I think it makes her seem a little bit distanced, to him, he can still worship from afar, even if it's only in his own mind. And she's savvy enough to know that, and keep herself independent as best as she's able.
It occurs to me, you're going to like this guy, Recidiva, he's your kind...

Sorry if this is incoherent!

No, it makes perfect sense. This is what I have to do when I write. I have to dissect motivations back to the purest action, the purest need, and then refuse to fuck it up again somehow to make it real enough to create a conflict.

Take a horror movie. You can't put me in one. If I see a ghost and I'll say "Okay, what do you need, you want me to dig here?" I'll dig up the thing, conflict over. Movie takes 5 minutes. So that's why my stories are short. Most people are conflicted over the stupidest stuff. If you sit still and listen...there's no conflict. Only unexpressed need and people unwilling to hear. So most of my characters just...get along...because they can express needs and then fulfill them. That's MY ideal.

In order to make a huge long compelling story you need believable conflicts. Most of those, as a matter of fact, are all internal. If people would know themselves well enough to come right out and name what they need, that does take some of the fun out of it, but it's what we're after. Raw need. Stated and clear.

There's no attraction unless both sides are attracted to each other. Otherwise it falls completely flat.

Even if you have this incredibly magnetic character, they are only magnetic because there's something they NEED. That's the pull. They don't need middle of the road, they need their opposite. Then there is a current, and it's undeniable. The opposite pole.

Some people only write because they think the ideal is to not need anything yet provide everything. That's actually dull as hell. In fantasy as well as real life.

Someone just going through the motions and getting nothing for themselves...doesn't exist. Even if what they're getting is the need to fuel their own ego.

 

[Stella_Omega]

....

Even if you have this incredibly magnetic character, they are only magnetic because there's something they NEED. That's the pull. They don't need middle of the road, they need their opposite. Then there is a current, and it's undeniable. The opposite pole.

Some people only write because they think the ideal is to not need anything yet provide everything. That's actually dull as hell. In fantasy as well as real life.

Someone just going through the motions and getting nothing for themselves...doesn't exist. Even if what they're getting is the need to fuel their own ego.

NEEDis the thing that draws me in, every goddamn time. I need - need.

When I first started this novel, Stella went after Tracy for your basic groupie motives. And when he pulled her, and displayed some odd behaviors, she went along with it without thinking much about what they might mean. Neither did I, for that matter, I was just writing an entertaining sequence of situations.

It wasn't until I started writing some back story files- and then his journal- that I realised what a twisted little guy he was. Everything had a motive! Everything that she just thought was for fun- had resonance in his mind. He's a cross between Machiavelli and Pinky (and the brain)...
WHy I'm thinking of these characters in reference to your original question, is that they DO, in fact, do exactly what they want. And Tracy, at least, got popped for it a few times, in his early years. He's learned to keep his needs under control, and with Stella, he's found the outlet.

 

[Recidiva]

NEEDis the thing that draws me in, every goddamn time. I need - need.

When I first started this novel, Stella went after Tracy for your basic groupie motives. And when he pulled her, and displayed some odd behaviors, she went along with it without thinking much about what they might mean. Neither did I, for that matter, I was just writing an entertaining sequence of situations.

It wasn't until I started writing some back story files- and then his journal- that I realised what a twisted little guy he was. Everything had a motive! Everything that she just thought was for fun- had resonance in his mind. He's a cross between Machiavelli and Pinky (and the brain)...
WHy I'm thinking of these characters in reference to your original question, is that they DO, in fact, do exactly what they want. And Tracy, at least, got popped for it a few times, in his early years. He's learned to keep his needs under control, and with Stella, he's found the outlet.

I see people worked up over the most obscured motivations, and they're the most diluted, so if they're given even the tiniest bit of satisfaction, it seems huge. Like forcing yourself to be thirsty so one drop of water seems like heaven.

But I live in the place where the torrent is what is needed and the need matches it. One drop of water ain't gonna cut it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I see people worked up over the most obscured motivations, and they're the most diluted, so if they're given even the tiniest bit of satisfaction, it seems huge. Like forcing yourself to be thirsty so one drop of water seems like heaven.

But I live in the place where the torrent is what is needed and the need matches it. One drop of water ain't gonna cut it.

You're gonna like my boy Trace, then...

 

[Recidiva]

You're gonna like my boy Trace, then...

I like boys. In general. When they're really specific, I like them even more.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I like boys. In general. When they're really specific, I like them even more.

His cousin calls him "You yellow-color mule-head cocksucker" and he says "You want me to suck your cock, Tony? I'd do anything for you!" Everybody laughs at the joke, but he means it.

 

[Recidiva]

His cousin calls him "You yellow-color mule-head cocksucker" and he says "You want me to suck your cock, Tony? I'd do anything for you!" Everybody laughs at the joke, but he means it.

Oh yes. I love the truth spoken as a taunt. Nobody ever catches it, but you get to say it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh yes. I love the truth spoken as a taunt. Nobody ever catches it, but you get to say it.

It makes a great plot device, too...

 

[Recidiva]

It makes a great plot device, too...

That too! Overall, I'm a big fan of the least obvious, the most unexpected...and also...the happy ending or at least the acknowledgement that endings are virtual.

My father once went to see "Children Of A Lesser God" and everyone walked out of that place shell shocked. I loved it as an artist, but I really felt for him when he said "For $60 bucks a ticket, is it too much to ask to have a happy ending?"

Took that to heart. The happy ending is satisfying. Particularly when you can make people believe in it. It's easy to believe in miserable endings. It's mostly where you choose to end the story.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I like happy endings. Which are not always happy-ever-after endings, at that- but my characters are always satisfied with what's happened and they did a little bit of growing, even if it's only in the small world of sex play.
I like transformation. And I prefer transformation on the side of the light

 

[Recidiva]

I like happy endings. Which are not always happy-ever-after endings, at that- but my characters are always satisfied with what's happened and they did a little bit of growing, even if it's only in the small world of sex play.
I like transformation. And I prefer transformation on the side of the light

Yeah, I'm afraid that's my preference. And kinda my motto, if someone thinks I've lost, I'm not finished yet. I think I'm just incredibly stubborn, and I will choose when the war is over on a high point, if not after every battle.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yeah, I'm afraid that's my preference. And kinda my motto, if someone thinks I've lost, I'm not finished yet. I think I'm just incredibly stubborn, and I will choose when the war is over on a high point, if not after every battle.

Are you sure you're not me?

 

[Recidiva]

Are you sure you're not me?

*pats herself down* Pretty sure. Did you feel that?