I sure hope the punish the captain of that sub in Hawaii that sunk the Jap fish ship.
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Sparky Kronkite
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They will....
The joy ride of death.
Still - from what I know - they were flying blind. Just should not have been in that close and would not have if they didn't have all the joy rider's on board.
Whoopee! BAM! Hey - what'er those bodies doing out there?
Surprise Capt.! You are fucked!
The joy ride of death.
Still - from what I know - they were flying blind. Just should not have been in that close and would not have if they didn't have all the joy rider's on board.
Whoopee! BAM! Hey - what'er those bodies doing out there?
Surprise Capt.! You are fucked!
KillerMuffin
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What, sparks, was his active sonar down? He shoulda pinged.
Don't worry Siren, the Captain is fucked. He will be court-martialed for it.
As for the rest of it, not familiar with submarine operation, I do know that it is without windows and since they didn't have sonar running, they probably didn't know there were people in the water. They should have checked, but they didn't.
The arrogance of the navy is astounding at times. If you knew what Navy brass has done to it's sailors and marines since it's inception, you would be nauseous with shame.
[Edited by KillerMuffin on 02-13-2001 at 12:57 PM]
Don't worry Siren, the Captain is fucked. He will be court-martialed for it.
As for the rest of it, not familiar with submarine operation, I do know that it is without windows and since they didn't have sonar running, they probably didn't know there were people in the water. They should have checked, but they didn't.
The arrogance of the navy is astounding at times. If you knew what Navy brass has done to it's sailors and marines since it's inception, you would be nauseous with shame.
[Edited by KillerMuffin on 02-13-2001 at 12:57 PM]
CelestialBody
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Sparky Kronkite
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Look I'm not expert but.......
The only communication on an emergency ascent like that is SONAR - but, but, but....
When filling/pumping the ship full of huge amounts of compressed air and then the following super swift +20mph accent - the fucking noise effectively elliminates anything that the SONAR can ping. They run without ears and they can't see of course - any periscope (even considering it could see at that angle) would be ripped off with the pressure
Now - when they were cruizing, just before the emergency accent - why didn't they read the shadow of the fishing boat?
Probably nobody listening. Probably certain crew members were more mindfull of the 20 civilians on board, all crowed on the bridge no doubt - these joy riders who were about to get the thrill of their lives with their first and only emergency accent in a sub.
And that's why the Capt. and probably the officer who arranged for the civilians to be there - will get the deserved shaft.
As for the rescue - the seas were too high to open any hatches except the one in the conning tower - which is too small to pass life rafts up threw - had to remain closed or swamp/flounder the craft.
The only communication on an emergency ascent like that is SONAR - but, but, but....
When filling/pumping the ship full of huge amounts of compressed air and then the following super swift +20mph accent - the fucking noise effectively elliminates anything that the SONAR can ping. They run without ears and they can't see of course - any periscope (even considering it could see at that angle) would be ripped off with the pressure
Now - when they were cruizing, just before the emergency accent - why didn't they read the shadow of the fishing boat?
Probably nobody listening. Probably certain crew members were more mindfull of the 20 civilians on board, all crowed on the bridge no doubt - these joy riders who were about to get the thrill of their lives with their first and only emergency accent in a sub.
And that's why the Capt. and probably the officer who arranged for the civilians to be there - will get the deserved shaft.
As for the rescue - the seas were too high to open any hatches except the one in the conning tower - which is too small to pass life rafts up threw - had to remain closed or swamp/flounder the craft.
CelestialBody
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The reason I asked
Sparky Kronkite
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PS - I just heard via CNN
That one of the civilian's was actually "at the controls."
Now again - this is a pretty simple manuver - a monkey could sit at the controls and pull it off.
But it was the distraction the civilians pressence caused and the closeness the sub was to shipping lanes, because they didn't want to hike them way out to sea - that caused the circumstances that lead up to the accident.
That one of the civilian's was actually "at the controls."
Now again - this is a pretty simple manuver - a monkey could sit at the controls and pull it off.
But it was the distraction the civilians pressence caused and the closeness the sub was to shipping lanes, because they didn't want to hike them way out to sea - that caused the circumstances that lead up to the accident.
No way should an attack sub just pop up and ram a fishing boat. Apparently what they do before they do this emergency surface is go to periscope depth, have a nice look around, check the sonar, make sure nothing is in the area, and then do the exercise. The fishing boat was running, meaning the sub should've heard it from miles away. I'll be very interested to hear what excuse the captain has, short of "We didn't check to see if anyone was around". Which, coming from the commander of a $1billion dollar sub armed with land-attack missiles, is not very encouraging.
I don't know about the sub crew not trying to help those in the water. I heard there were "three to four foot waves" that prevented them from going in after them. Uh, you ram a civilian ship and people are dying, you make extraordinary efforts to save them. I want to hear more before I make a judgement, but it's a disgrace if they sat there while those people were in the water.
I don't know about the sub crew not trying to help those in the water. I heard there were "three to four foot waves" that prevented them from going in after them. Uh, you ram a civilian ship and people are dying, you make extraordinary efforts to save them. I want to hear more before I make a judgement, but it's a disgrace if they sat there while those people were in the water.
Cheyenne
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2 Civilians at Helm Spots on Sub
By Jean Christensen
Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, Feb. 13, 2001; 9:03 p.m. EST
HONOLULU –– Two civilian guests were seated at controls of the USS Greeneville when the submarine surfaced and sank a Japanese fishing vessel off the Hawaiian coast, a Navy spokesman said Tuesday.
"There were two civilians at two separate watch stations under the very close supervision of a qualified watch stander," said Lt. Cmdr. Conrad Chun, a Pacific Fleet spokesman.
He declined to identify which stations were involved, but said they could include the helm, sonar or the ballast control. The Navy has refused to identify who was aboard, but Chun said the 16 civilians included local business leaders.
A defense official in Washington said one of the civilians was at the helm. However, there is no indication the civilian played any role in Friday's collision, said the official, who is familiar with the investigation and
spoke only on condition of anonymity.
A Pentagon spokesman, Rear Adm. Craig Quigley, said no information about the circumstances at the time of the accident would be released until the Navy has completed its investigation.
The Pentagon said it has not given up searching for nine people missing from the Japanese vessel, a 190-foot ship owned by Uwajima Fisheries High School in southwestern Japan. Twenty-six people were rescued at sea an hour after
the Ehime Maru was rammed by the 360-foot submarine and sank in 1,800 feet of water.
The Greeneville was conducting a drill in which the submarine dives to about 400 feet and then makes a rapid ascent – known as an "emergency main ballast blow."
The sub commander usually ensures that nothing is in the way before rocketing to the surface, but the Greeneville somehow failed to detect the presence of the fishing vessel.
The Navy takes civilians aboard its ships and submarines as a means of promoting its service, educating civilians about the Navy and to accommodate journalist's requests.
Chun said it was routine for civilians to be allowed at the controls under close supervision.
"The guy's right over their shoulder," he said. "The guy's right there."
He would not say whether such situations are normal when a submarine is conducting an emergency drill. Another Navy spokesman, Cmdr. Greg Smith, said any civilian at a control position would have a qualified helmsman beside him or her in case something went wrong.
The National Transportation Safety Board also is investigating.
NTSB member John Hammerschmidt, who is leading the investigation here, said he only learned civilians were involved from news reports after investigators toured the sub Tuesday.
The news angered one of the crewmen of the sunken vessel.
"A civilian wouldn't know what to do (at the controls)," said Ryoichi Miya, first mate of the Ehime Maru.
"I don't know if the emergency surfacing was a drill or what, but it's absolutely unforgivable if a civilian was operating it," he said, his voice rising in anger.
Japan has asked the United States to salvage the sunken boat. The U.S. Navy has sent a submersible underwater device equipped with sonar and video cameras to investigate the wreck and see if that was possible.
As the search area grew to more than 12,00 square miles, an area the size of Maryland, President Bush telephoned Japan's prime minister, Yoshiro Mori, to express condolences for the collision and the apparent loss of life.
"He asked me to do everything I could" to locate the nine Japanese still missing, Bush said, "which we are doing."
Bush suggested that he was not ready to order the raising of the sunken boat. "We haven't ascertained all the facts yet," he said.
By Jean Christensen
Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, Feb. 13, 2001; 9:03 p.m. EST
HONOLULU –– Two civilian guests were seated at controls of the USS Greeneville when the submarine surfaced and sank a Japanese fishing vessel off the Hawaiian coast, a Navy spokesman said Tuesday.
"There were two civilians at two separate watch stations under the very close supervision of a qualified watch stander," said Lt. Cmdr. Conrad Chun, a Pacific Fleet spokesman.
He declined to identify which stations were involved, but said they could include the helm, sonar or the ballast control. The Navy has refused to identify who was aboard, but Chun said the 16 civilians included local business leaders.
A defense official in Washington said one of the civilians was at the helm. However, there is no indication the civilian played any role in Friday's collision, said the official, who is familiar with the investigation and
spoke only on condition of anonymity.
A Pentagon spokesman, Rear Adm. Craig Quigley, said no information about the circumstances at the time of the accident would be released until the Navy has completed its investigation.
The Pentagon said it has not given up searching for nine people missing from the Japanese vessel, a 190-foot ship owned by Uwajima Fisheries High School in southwestern Japan. Twenty-six people were rescued at sea an hour after
the Ehime Maru was rammed by the 360-foot submarine and sank in 1,800 feet of water.
The Greeneville was conducting a drill in which the submarine dives to about 400 feet and then makes a rapid ascent – known as an "emergency main ballast blow."
The sub commander usually ensures that nothing is in the way before rocketing to the surface, but the Greeneville somehow failed to detect the presence of the fishing vessel.
The Navy takes civilians aboard its ships and submarines as a means of promoting its service, educating civilians about the Navy and to accommodate journalist's requests.
Chun said it was routine for civilians to be allowed at the controls under close supervision.
"The guy's right over their shoulder," he said. "The guy's right there."
He would not say whether such situations are normal when a submarine is conducting an emergency drill. Another Navy spokesman, Cmdr. Greg Smith, said any civilian at a control position would have a qualified helmsman beside him or her in case something went wrong.
The National Transportation Safety Board also is investigating.
NTSB member John Hammerschmidt, who is leading the investigation here, said he only learned civilians were involved from news reports after investigators toured the sub Tuesday.
The news angered one of the crewmen of the sunken vessel.
"A civilian wouldn't know what to do (at the controls)," said Ryoichi Miya, first mate of the Ehime Maru.
"I don't know if the emergency surfacing was a drill or what, but it's absolutely unforgivable if a civilian was operating it," he said, his voice rising in anger.
Japan has asked the United States to salvage the sunken boat. The U.S. Navy has sent a submersible underwater device equipped with sonar and video cameras to investigate the wreck and see if that was possible.
As the search area grew to more than 12,00 square miles, an area the size of Maryland, President Bush telephoned Japan's prime minister, Yoshiro Mori, to express condolences for the collision and the apparent loss of life.
"He asked me to do everything I could" to locate the nine Japanese still missing, Bush said, "which we are doing."
Bush suggested that he was not ready to order the raising of the sunken boat. "We haven't ascertained all the facts yet," he said.
CreamyLady
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Well, one thing he needs to know is if the ship can be raised at all. There are a lot of things to consider in raising a damaged ship. It might just break apart.
As for the time issue, realistically, the chances of anyone being alive in the ship are very, very slim.
Another thing regarding the sub's failure to participate in the rescue: submarines are not designed to work well on the surface, regardless of what you may have seen in the movies. The first mission of the crew of the submarine, NO MATTER WHAT WAS GOING ON ELSEWHERE, was to ascertain the damage to their boat and any injuries among the crew. It is not fair to think of them as selfish.
Finally, can we keep cool about this? Horrible as it is, it is not the only time it has happened, and not only to our own Navy. It is a tragedy. However, to angrily demand action and punishment without a thorough knowledge of the facts is stupid.
In this case, the only right thing to be done was to not have the accident in the first place. Since it has already happened, the formal apologies and investigation are the best that can be done at this moment, and all the screaming in the world won't change that.
As for the time issue, realistically, the chances of anyone being alive in the ship are very, very slim.
Another thing regarding the sub's failure to participate in the rescue: submarines are not designed to work well on the surface, regardless of what you may have seen in the movies. The first mission of the crew of the submarine, NO MATTER WHAT WAS GOING ON ELSEWHERE, was to ascertain the damage to their boat and any injuries among the crew. It is not fair to think of them as selfish.
Finally, can we keep cool about this? Horrible as it is, it is not the only time it has happened, and not only to our own Navy. It is a tragedy. However, to angrily demand action and punishment without a thorough knowledge of the facts is stupid.
In this case, the only right thing to be done was to not have the accident in the first place. Since it has already happened, the formal apologies and investigation are the best that can be done at this moment, and all the screaming in the world won't change that.
Cheyenne
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??? I haven't seen anyone suggest that there could be a living soul left on a fishing boat that sunk at sea in 1,800 feet of water! That just isn't realistic as much as you might hope for it, Siren. Getting the boat off the bottom now is a matter of body recovery, only, I believe. And sometimes there is too much danger to recover bodies from wrecks, it is better to leave the boat at the bottom rather than risk additional lives. At 1,800 feet, it would be a major production to salvage the sunken boat, if it is even possible to do.
The correct answer is exactly the one that was given, "We haven't ascertained all the facts yet."
The correct answer is exactly the one that was given, "We haven't ascertained all the facts yet."
Bigdog
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A few facts
It doesn't matter whether or not civilians were at any of the control stations when the sub surfaced. Only one mistake was made during the exercise, the captain failed to check the surface for any vessels before diving to the start depth of 400 feet. Normal procedure is to ascend to periscope depth (60 feet) and check for ship traffic. The conditions at the time of this mishap were 8 foot swells, which should have allowed visual sight ability of almost 10 miles.
As for the sub not attempting to rescue victims, it would have been almost suicidal for them to try. Submarines are very unstable on the surface, in 8 foot seas there was a very good chance of being capsized and sinking.
All in all, a very bad situation that will probably get uglier in the next week or so. One thing for sure, the captain's days in the Navy are numbered.
It doesn't matter whether or not civilians were at any of the control stations when the sub surfaced. Only one mistake was made during the exercise, the captain failed to check the surface for any vessels before diving to the start depth of 400 feet. Normal procedure is to ascend to periscope depth (60 feet) and check for ship traffic. The conditions at the time of this mishap were 8 foot swells, which should have allowed visual sight ability of almost 10 miles.
As for the sub not attempting to rescue victims, it would have been almost suicidal for them to try. Submarines are very unstable on the surface, in 8 foot seas there was a very good chance of being capsized and sinking.
All in all, a very bad situation that will probably get uglier in the next week or so. One thing for sure, the captain's days in the Navy are numbered.
Closet Desire
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Ditto...
...topside on a sub in 8 foot waves is no place to be. Subs don't have the equipment to rescue people in that situation and even getting alongside them in the water can be dangerous due to intakes and exhausts of cooling water for the engineering plants (turbulence and such). Modern subs aren't surface ships that happen to dive, they are are underwater boats that can almost float on the surface.
I agree that a lot of things came together to make this tragedy and no argument will change the fact that the Navy made a mistake or many mistakes in judgement. I wouldn't lay it all on the CO, but on policy as well. I always found the presence of civilians (except for techs and engineers from the shipyard) or dignitaries on my ship to be a distraction and would have been distressed to do anything other than split, crit, same old shit with them on board. In other words, no drills, no chances.
I guess you could say a lot of things like the Maru was small at 400 tons, could have been missed. You could say what are the chances of actually coming up and hitting something. Astronomical I would think. Probably a better chance of getting hit by Mir as she comes down. But, they were within US waters rather than open ocean where the odds would have been better. Did he follow procedures or not? Truth is, they can hear and they can ping no matter what sort of noises are going on in the boat. The sonar array is completely isolated from noises within the hull and unless the screw is cavitating there's no noise from that either. They can hear shrimp screwing in Florida from Virginia. So what happened? Laxness? Carelessness? It happens.
Bottom line, no excuses. We fucked up and might as well admit it, apologise, and try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
...topside on a sub in 8 foot waves is no place to be. Subs don't have the equipment to rescue people in that situation and even getting alongside them in the water can be dangerous due to intakes and exhausts of cooling water for the engineering plants (turbulence and such). Modern subs aren't surface ships that happen to dive, they are are underwater boats that can almost float on the surface.
I agree that a lot of things came together to make this tragedy and no argument will change the fact that the Navy made a mistake or many mistakes in judgement. I wouldn't lay it all on the CO, but on policy as well. I always found the presence of civilians (except for techs and engineers from the shipyard) or dignitaries on my ship to be a distraction and would have been distressed to do anything other than split, crit, same old shit with them on board. In other words, no drills, no chances.
I guess you could say a lot of things like the Maru was small at 400 tons, could have been missed. You could say what are the chances of actually coming up and hitting something. Astronomical I would think. Probably a better chance of getting hit by Mir as she comes down. But, they were within US waters rather than open ocean where the odds would have been better. Did he follow procedures or not? Truth is, they can hear and they can ping no matter what sort of noises are going on in the boat. The sonar array is completely isolated from noises within the hull and unless the screw is cavitating there's no noise from that either. They can hear shrimp screwing in Florida from Virginia. So what happened? Laxness? Carelessness? It happens.
Bottom line, no excuses. We fucked up and might as well admit it, apologise, and try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
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