I can't wait for this culture in this country.

[Ishmael]

From the news:


Last week, a fire swept through an overcrowded school in Mecca. The Saudi religious police, known as the mutaween, or by their official name, the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, prevented firemen from rescuing the schoolgirls. Why? Because the clothed girls weren't wearing the headscarves and cloaks required for women in public.

According to one witness, the police told rescuers, "It is sinful to approach them." So, to protect the delicate sensibilities of everyone involved, the police tried to lock the gates and let the children burn. Three policemen beat a girl who tried to escape. Fifteen girls died, most of them crushed in the panicked stampede to escape.


Yes folks, these is just the sort of "cultural diversity" I want to see in my country. After all, they are acting in the name of God. Who can fault them?

In a moral atmosphere of 'varying shades of grey' we have to excuse this kind of behavior as culturally correct. After all, they may be right.

Jump in here ppman and back me up.

Ishmael

 

[Starblayde]

I'll do it instead of ppman...

if this is true... all it requires is:



bloody religion

 

[Chantal Marchon]

Unfortunately the religion has taken over the minds to such an extent that they would rather see girls dead then shamed.

I will never understand this because there is not logic to it.

Maybe if women in Saudi Arabia had any power there would be reform.

 

[Wiggles]

How do these people sleep at night?

 

[Ishmael]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

I'll do it instead of ppman...

if this is true... all it requires is:



bloody religion

Yes, but is that what you want in your country?

Conversion, or the attempt to do so I understand. Incineration is beyond my meager intelligence to absorb.

Given that you can't 'outlaw' religion. (That's been tried, and failed.) One can only pick the most benign.

Ishmael

 

[Chantal Marchon]

They sleep knowing that they are acting in the righteousness of their god. or so they think.

Women are killed in the middle east all the time for stuff that isn't their fault. If a girl is raped her own father or brother will kill her because she has shamed the family. But the man who did it is almost never punished.

 

[Ishmael]

BTW

It is true, not "if it's true". Has been picked up by the wires, but has been under reported in the main stream press. One wonders why?

Ishmael

 

[Monazwx]

A very sad thread

It's discouraging what fanatics will do (or not do in this case) in the name of religion. A simple thing as a head scarf killed all those poor girls. I pray for the day when women everywhere will have equal rights.

(I know it's sappy, but twisted views of religion really annoy me!)

 

[Starblayde]

Re: BTW

It is true, not "if it's true". Has been picked up by the wires, but has been under reported in the main stream press. One wonders why?

Ishmael

sorry, thought it might be just a thing to provoke ppman... anyway....

bloody religion...the cause of and excuse for more wars than anything else...

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: BTW

sorry, thought it might be just a thing to provoke ppman... anyway....

bloody religion...the cause of and excuse for more wars than anything else...

Star,

I don't provoke without facts. I understand your reply. But for future reference, see preceding statement.

And of course you're right. For the most part it has come about from the interaction of Theocratic states, or those states that embraced a national religion. One of the things that the founders of the US studiously attepted to avoid. Not the ellimination of religion from public discourse, but the elimination of a 'state sanctioned' religion.

Ishmael

 

[erosman]

Fanatic fundamentalism is perhaps the premier antagonist of creation and life.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[erosman]

...but...

A close second would be the arrogance that slings mud and fails to see the ground beneath its own ideals eroded.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[p_p_man]

How can anyone excuse the actions...

of the Religious Police?

They can't and they shouldn't have to.

I've written on these Boards in the past that the Middle East should take responsible for their own actions and come closer to what other people in the world regard as normal, civilised behaviour.

The authorities hide behind religion as a means of keeping themselves in power. But if the various Imams, Ayotollahs and other religious leaders stopped acting like 9th century despots and brought the teachings of their beliefs up to date then these occurances would slowly die away.

But it's not only the religious leaders alone who are to blame. It's also the political authorites who encourage a social system which is so alien to how we think we can only look on it and mutter "savages".

And it's not only the religious or the political leaders who are to blame. It's the people themselves. Other countries have had severe laws under which they lived. What did they do? They started protest groups, pressure groups and eventually turned to violence in the streets. And it's no good saying they can't because I say they can. Other countries have, why not Middle Easterners?

They too must take responsibility for this "incident".

The three together are to blame for the deaths of the schoolgirls.

But the same thing happened in Beirut when Sharon ordered the massacre of the Palestnians and then blocked the roads so that they couldn't escape. Was that based on a motive of politics or religion.

And the same happened during the Witch Hunts when women were burnt to death at the stake for having a mole on their bodies. Again religion or political power?

And the Indian Mutiny when Indians who were forbidden to eat pork refused to bite the musket bullets because they were greased with pork fat. And were tied over cannon muzzles and blown to bits by the British.

Religion or power? Or a mixture of both?

The Middle East and especially the Gulf States have a strange mix of the two. They know how the world thinks when we see stories like this one but they do nothing.

Other countries see it happening but do nothing either, unless it happens to involve one of our own nationals.

Politics or Religion?

Or oil?

ppman

 

[CelestialBody]

They are organizing.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: They are organizing.

They have created pressure groups, but mostly grass roots movements. Those work spectacularly in democracies, but not so well in other systems. The best example of this is RAWA.

Yes but RAWA (Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan) is only relative, at the moment to Afghanistan.

It's the Gulf States who have to get their act together.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[erosman]

As a matter of fact...

I didn't think my statement to be the target of your verbal reflex. After reading your post - which posted simultaneously with my own - I thought perhaps that I had missed something in the thread starter's original post, or even all the other accumulated comments. While re-reading the thread, an old farmer's syllogism came to mind: "If you throw dirt, you lose ground."
I simply wanted to state, that the fanatic fundamentalist's imperative that all must conform to his ideals, is only slightly less tolerant of open discussion than the arrogance that sometimes surfaces in our emotional outbursts. When our words are prefaced with degradation, there is the suspicion that what follows is not firmly founded on reason or conviction. I personally thought that the information that you provided was completely inconsistent with the 'stupid fuck-heads' moniker, or the accusation that there was a lack of research. Even now, these words are not meant to 'flame' or inflame, only find the middle ground, where tolerance is the texture of the conversation.

 

[BustyTheClown]

Speaking of tolerance... We already have such "savage" religions being tolerated in this country (which I'm guessing is the US? Sorry if I'm wrong). Maybe it's just the aftermath of the whole attacks thing, but I'm hesitant to point only to the Muslim religion and deem it cruel or inhumane... I agree that allowing the girls to die rather than to be shamed is a relatively heartless act, but I also agree with the person that said they sleep at night knowing that they acted according to the will of God.

One of the "savage" religions we tolerate in this country is that of the Christian Scientists -- in case you're not familiar with that sect of Christianity, they don't believe in medicine. They place their faith in God, and many a sick person has died from easily treatable diseases simply because the Christian Scientists never took them to a hospital. I'm not sure what the law has to say about this, but I don't think this sort of behavior can be outright banned because of the First Amendment.

You might also point to the Chinese cultural/religious practice of binding girls' feet tightly so that they are small and pretty. I'm not sure if they still practice it, so I'm sorry if that's a bad example.

Or you could point to the society (I think this one is also an Eastern religious practice) where the women put gold hoops around their necks for beauty purposes, stretching them out to the extent that they would die if the hoops were removed.

Or the African nations that practice what many might call "mutilating" their bodies by stretching out their lips and ears to insert plates in them.

Or what about the Christian practice of circumcision?

I'm sorry if I've lost track of what this thread is about -- but you'll notice that a lot of the "savagery" involved in world religions have to do with physical appearance and/or shame resulting from it. Anyway, all religions have their fair share of "barbaric" rituals and practices -- although some may be more publicized or more gruesome than others, I hesitate to point to just one that happens to be quite badly publicized (for good reason, some might say) and reject it as savage or anything to that effect.

 

[Ishmael]

???????????????

CB

The situation in Saudi Arabia is not dissimilar from that of many muslim nations, however, it should be stressed that the seperation of sexes is not wholly agreed upon. Indeed the death of those little girls is a tragedy, and those responsible, in my humble opinion should be castrated, drawn and quartered. It is very important to recognize that what people do in the name of religion (ex. blowing up clinics where abortions are performed) is not necessarily representative of that religion.

That is one of the largest loads of mealy mouthed, apologetic bull crap that I've heard in a long time.

1400 years of the same behavior is NOT an abberation, it is the norm. What's a matter with you fucking people, unable to read history?

And what's even worse, after 1400 years, they aren't progressing, they're regressing. Kill the culture off and be done with it. That is the end game, that is the only end game. It's not a matter of politics, only a matter of time and the price that innocents must pay in the interim.

Ishmael

 

[BustyTheClown]

Re: ???????????????

What's a matter with you fucking people, unable to read history?

And what's even worse, after 1400 years, they aren't progressing, they're regressing. Kill the culture off and be done with it. That is the end game, that is the only end game. It's not a matter of politics, only a matter of time and the price that innocents must pay in the interim.

Man, I can do nothing BUT read the history of religions, and I think they should all be abandoned. (Please note that I did NOT use Ishmael's terminology of "kill the culture off" -- too violent; I don't know how else to do it, but violence is not the answer...) Enough of people twisting the words of their prophets and gods and whatnot, and using religion as an excuse to be violent, hateful, and destructive to others -- it's all a bunch of bullshit that we just don't need in today's world. Ishmael's right, 1400(+) years is fucking enough if there's no progression going on.

 

[Problem Child]

Re: Re: ???????????????

Man, I can do nothing BUT read the history of religions, and I think they should all be abandoned. (Please note that I did NOT use Ishmael's terminology of "kill the culture off" -- too violent; I don't know how else to do it, but violence is not the answer...) Enough of people twisting the words of their prophets and gods and whatnot, and using religion as an excuse to be violent, hateful, and destructive to others -- it's all a bunch of bullshit that we just don't need in today's world. Ishmael's right, 1400(+) years is fucking enough if there's no progression going on.

Rock on Busty.

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: ???????????????

Man, I can do nothing BUT read the history of religions, and I think they should all be abandoned. (Please note that I did NOT use Ishmael's terminology of "kill the culture off" -- too violent; I don't know how else to do it, but violence is not the answer...) Enough of people twisting the words of their prophets and gods and whatnot, and using religion as an excuse to be violent, hateful, and destructive to others -- it's all a bunch of bullshit that we just don't need in today's world. Ishmael's right, 1400(+) years is fucking enough if there's no progression going on.

Busty, in a perfect world I'd agree. But you fly over there and preach non-violence. Me, I'll kill off the culture. (Killing a culture is not the same as genocide, with a little luck you'll realize that.)

But enough is enough. You can either deal with it, or play the ostrich.

Ishmael

 

[SINthysist]

I love Starblayde's original response

And Busty,

I've been in China.




They really don't bind feet anymore. You are begining to sound like DCL's alter ego even though you profess to love p_p_man. So I assume you may be...,

No, she prefers Unregistered.