I’m considering incest . . .

[Roxanne Appleby]

In a story, that is, about an 18 year old girl who “falls in love” with her beautiful, hardworking, virtuous single mom.

Here’s my question: What do the psychologists say? Is this always the sign of a severely dysfunctional family environment? Are all individuals in such relationships necessarily “damaged goods” in their psyche before entering the thing, or afterwards as a result of it? Is there such a thing as “healthy incest,” which either enhances or makes no difference to a person’s chances of enjoying a happy life? Or is that just a porn fantasy?

I am amazed at how many “sex-positive” people find the subject titillating. But I’m not sure I want to “go there” if it would be glorifying a purely destructive behavior.

 

[rgraham666]

My read on incest is that it is a sign of immaturity. And misuse of power in the case of a parent/child relationship.

A person, in my opinion, is supposed to grow, up and eventually away from their family. Incest, to my mind, shows that this isn't happening.

In the case of parent/child incest, the parent has power over the child. The power to support and shape the child's worldview. By using that power to get their rocks off is a betrayal of their responsibility.

If I ever write an incest story, unlikely, it will be to examine, and not kindly, these beliefs.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

In a story, that is, about an 18 year old girl who “falls in love” with her beautiful, hardworking, virtuous single mom.

Okay, if this is going to be porn, the mom who sleeps with her daughter may have to drop the virtuous tag. Just a suggestion.

Here’s my question: What do the psychologists say? Is this always the sign of a severely dysfunctional family environment? Are all individuals in such relationships necessarily “damaged goods” in their psyche before entering the thing, or afterwards as a result of it? Is there such a thing as “healthy incest,” which either enhances or makes no difference to a person’s chances of enjoying a happy life? Or is that just a porn fantasy?

I'm not a psychologists, nor will I pretend to be one, so if you want to skip my post, I won't be offended, but it seems like there're some boundaries not being expressed in any family where these lines (among the immediate family at least) aren't being learned, taught, or respected. That said, going into said situation would seem to imply some sort of problem. Coming out, especially realizing the damage that such things tend to cause, would seem like a springboard for bigger problems, especially if the aforementioned boundaries are learned or realized after the fact. Guilt's a bitch, y'know?

"Healthy Incest"? I remember hearing Drew and Adam on Loveline describing a cousin as a sexual tackling dummy, meaning someone comfortable enough to experiment with but not in the immediate family, hence without the extreme boundary of a sibling or a parent, etc. That said, and the logic behind it realized, it seems reasonable that some relationships with more distant relatives might not be too damaging, or damaging at all. Healthy might not be the best word, but not so damaging.

I am amazed at how many “sex-positive” people find the subject titillating. But I’m not sure I want to “go there” if it would be glorifying a purely destructive behavior.

Forbidden fruit. We all want what we can't have, the line is drawn in whether or not we pursue it and how.

JMHO,

Q_C

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

My read on incest is that it is a sign of immaturity. And misuse of power in the case of a parent/child relationship. A person, in my opinion, is supposed to grow, up and eventually away from their family. Incest, to my mind, shows that this isn't happening. In the case of parent/child incest, the parent has power over the child. The power to support and shape the child's worldview. By using that power to get their rocks off is a betrayal of their responsibility.

Yeah, that sounds about right to me. But here's my real question: Is it wrong to feed the libido of readers by even catereing to that particular fantasy? It sure is a popular one, but at the same time I'm sure at least 99.99 percent of those who are titillated by it would never consider doing it.

 

[rgraham666]

Yeah, that sounds about right to me. But here's my real question: Is it wrong to feed the libido of readers by even catereing to that particular fantasy? It sure is a popular one, but at the same time I'm sure at least 99.99 percent of those who are titillated by it would never consider doing it.

It is popular, and I'll admit that worries me.

Myself, as I said, I probably won't ever write an incest story, and if I do it sure as hell won't be positive.

 

[R. Richard]

Under normal conditions I would agree with rgraham. However, what if conditions are not normal?

I wrote several chapters of a story titled "Island Retreat." The general theme of the stories is that a woman engineer and her son and daughter are forced to take an assignment on a remote island to escape from a homicidal ex-husband. The daughter is psychologically unable to do without sex for any extended period of time. Thus, the daughter begins an incestuous affair with her brother. Of course, the mother is drawn into the action as there is no other outlet.

In the scenario I used, I do not feel that the incest is perverse. It is a natural result of abnormal conditions.

In a more normal situation, I would question why the incest is taking place. The economic power of an adult woman over her young daughter is ripe for trouble. I would think that such a relationship would be unhealthy for both parties.

Even an incestuous relationship between a sister and a brother has problems. For one thing, it is not wise to have children in such a realtionship. However, I can see a reasonable incest story based on a sister/brother relationship if there is no other outlet or if the incestuous relationship is in addition to and augments other, outside relationships.

JMHO.

 

[coochie]

"Healthy Incest" is that an oxymoron or something. Excuse me, I'm not as smart as you people, but I have some experience with dealing with the issue.

I can see daughter having a thing for her mother story. This just maybe an idea, but I thought my mom was hot. People say that I inherited my physical features from her. Definately my butt Her hair is long and straight like mine, but her eyes are hazel blue and gray while mine are hazel light-green and light-brown. Her boobs are bigger but we are both tall.

I told her that she looked pretty in a dress she had on one day and she shot me the coldest look I have ever seen. Okay, my mom has always been a distant cold bitch to me. The thing is, she is still pretty. She colors her hair platium blonde, while I still have my original dirty blonde color.

My fantasy would be that I could feel that she loved me, but making out with her would be great too. She is hotter than any girl that I have made out with.

"Damaged Goods" that how everyone sees you.

 

[Pure]

Is it wrong to feed the libido of readers by even catering to that particular [incest] fantasy?

a question is, in feeding a fantasy, are you feeding (promoting) a behavior?

 

[coochie]

Is it wrong to feed the libido of readers by even catering to that particular [incest] fantasy?

a question is, in feeding a fantasy, are you feeding (promoting) a behavior?

I really don't think so. Two people can be exposed to the same stuff and act very differently.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I can think of several psychological models for incest; none is all-encompassing, and I think it's fair to suggest that like the broader category of non-incestuous sex, motivations might differ from person to person. I should note that I'm dealing below with the question of why a child might desire a parent, as that seemed to me the situation in the novel; I'm not here discussing why an adult might desire a child, which I think a different and generally more dangerous situation.

The classic Freudian model of child-for-parent desire suggests that, as Rob notes, it's tied into how we mature. As children, we see adult parents who have things or are things that we want. We can either stay at the child level and attempt to get those things - power, nourishment, security, sex - directly from our parents, our closest sources of them, or we can mature and brave the world outside the family and look for them there. A very reductive way of expressing Freud's model might be to say that immature personalities afraid of the wider world seek to fulfill their sexual and emotional needs by continuing to rely on their parents. Mature ones move on to become the parental figures and operate independently.

A second model I've read about deals specifically with seperated families. I haven't seen a lengthy exegis of the topic, but apparently it's fairly common for adopted children who as adults are reunited with biological family members to experience sexual desire. The author of the brief piece I read offered the theory that was basically about emotional confusion; as an adult, one feels sudden powerful closeness with another adult, and the mind at times interprets this as a sexual attraction because that's our most common model for "powerful feelings for relatively recently met adult." One might, for instance, read Byron's affair with his half-sister in this light; they were not raised together and only met later in life. More broadly, we can extend that to the question of boundaries and understanding the nature of affection; some people do not effectively distinguish between sexual and non-sexual affection, and tend to experience a sexual element to many relationships that others would perceive as non-sexual.

Isolation is another possible model, and essentially the one that R. Richard sets up in his story. There might conceivably be times when the need to reproduce might overcome the incest prohibition; more broadly, there may be circumstances under which isolation so dminishes the pool of potential targets for developing sexual feelings that incestuous desire is the only likely one, whether or not it is acted upon. One possible explanation for the common presence of incest themes in Gothic novels, for instance, might be the isolation common both to the novels and to the lives of some of the minor gentry at the time. Life on a country estate could be very isolated, and one might read some of those veiled suggests of incest and/or abuse as warnings against the dangers inherent to that position.

There is also the ugliest but undeniably present model: some people do not perceive other human beings as valid, real, or important in the way that they perceive themselves to be. Some incest undoubtedly occurs because at least one of the participants views the other as an available sexual receptacle and nothing more. That I think wholly counter to Roxanne's purpose, however; her model sounds more like the Freudian to me.

Shanglan

 

[impressive]

With all of the commentary, there remains to be mentioned the possibility that mother & daughter are simply compatible mates. It's not something that appeals to me ... but what consenting adults do is their own damned business.

 

[BlackShanglan]

With all of the commentary, there remains to be mentioned the possibility that mother & daughter are simply compatible mates. It's not something that appeals to me ... but what consenting adults do is their own damned business.

I agree that it's quite possible that persons related by blood might happen to be compatible mates. That leads to an interesting question: is that attraction a normal thing that we suppress due to our developed mores (which is Freud's point of view), or is the sexual desire for a relative itself the abnormal thing? Freud suggests that, basically, Impressive is right. It's actually the normal thing for the species for us to desire people regardless of (or at times because of) family connections. It's only our learned aversion to violating the incest prohibition that prevents us. That is not to say that the incest prohibition is bad - only that it's not something we're born with.

There's this, though. Even if the inherent sexual desire might be natural, as for someone who simply happens to be well-suited to be a mate - would it not, in the general run of social life, take a great deal for someone to overcome that incest prohibition? Even if it's a learned behavior, it is learned; we know that incest is considered one of the great primal sins. Surely that must be part of the daughter's consciousness. Even if she might under other circumstances have seen her mother as an attractive mate, her interactions with her must be heavily affected or even dominated by knowing that sexual contact is forbidden. That would give the desire a different feel - no?

Shanglan

 

[MichelleLovesTo]

All In The Family

In real life I don't think incest can be healthy unless it was one of those freaky coincidences you see on talk shows where a couple meet, fall in love, marry, and then find out they're related. They never knew about the relationship so it wasn't a deliberate case of a warped family dynamic.

Parents, in particular, are meant to give unconditional love. There can be no crossing of that line without a loss of the more primary relationship.

That being said, I enjoy the fantasy and have even done some work on a mother/son story -- just to see if I could and to exploe new areas in my writing. I've always had a very firm opinion that fantasy and reality are distinct and different things. We all have, what I call, Dark Furniture. These are the fantasies and desires we try to not dwell on, that we possibly are least proud of, and that can find an outlet in fiction.

You can't write interesting fiction unless you write about some Dark Furniture. Whether your protagonist espouses or condemns these things is another matter, but many of the topics which interest people are not hearts and puppy dogs.

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[oggbashan]

I wrote incest because the story gets more attention.

Og

 

[R. Richard]

With all of the commentary, there remains to be mentioned the possibility that mother & daughter are simply compatible mates. It's not something that appeals to me ... but what consenting adults do is their own damned business.

If a consenting adult wants to jump off a bridge to his/her death it is NOT his/her own damned business.

If you consider the real world situation, there are enormous problems. At first, the mother has economic control over the daughter. She may or may not ecxercise that control, but she does have the control.

Assuming that the mother does not exercise the economic control over her daughter and instead allows the daughter a real life out side of the relationship, it is quite likely that the daughter will develop economic power of her own. Then we have the situation of an 18-year-old daughter in love with her perhaps 37-year-old mother. By the time we have a 30-year-old daughter in love with her 49-year-old mother, problems likely develop. The daughter is now likely more economically powerful than her mother and the daughter is now a target for other 30-year-olds. There is a temptation for the daughter to abandon her mother for a lover more nearly her age.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I write erotica and porn because it gets me off.
And if I find myself too wrapped up in the ethics of a situation, then I don't get off, so I don't write that particular story!
If I can find a way around the ethics, I go for it.
It could be your scenario might never come about- but the character might spend a good long time thinking about it, and embroidering on it, and- not acting on her thoughts...

You'll also notice that the million-and-a-half incest stories posted here on Lit are by writers who are not bothered in the least by our ethical qualms!
I was going to say that these stories take place in little bubbles of reality. But It's extraordinary to me how many of them start out with paragraphs and pages of explanation of what happened and what makes it all okay now.... I find that interesting, in a sqeamish kind of way....

 

[MichelleLovesTo]

Justify My (Taboo) Love.

I was going to say that these stories take place in little bubbles of reality. But It's extraordinary to me how many of them start out with paragraphs and pages of explanation of what happened and what makes it all okay now.... I find that interesting, in a sqeamish kind of way....

I've written a lot of mind control. In reality I think that it would be a loathsome and immoral thing to DO under any circumstances. And my characters do tend to either struggle with the issue -- or are pretty much textbook sociopaths. If MC is a reader's kink, the justifications might get in the way, and delay the "good stuff." But if you want to write a character who is basically "decent," they are almost obligated to struggle for some justification.

I imagine incest is the same -- you can write characters that address and deal with the stigma/taboo, or you can have characters that don't give a damn, but they are two very different sorts of "people."

(Oh, I realized that in my earlier post I acted like the story I'm working on is my first incest story. I've done sibling stuff with Gingerbread being one example, but parent/child is a whole other level, imo.)

 

[Stella_Omega]

I've written a lot of mind control. In reality I think that it would be a loathsome and immoral thing to DO under any circumstances. And my characters do tend to either struggle with the issue -- or are pretty much textbook sociopaths. If MC is a reader's kink, the justifications might get in the way, and delay the "good stuff." But if you want to write a character who is basically "decent," they are almost obligated to struggle for some justification.

I imagine incest is the same -- you can write characters that address and deal with the stigma/taboo, or you can have characters that don't give a damn, but they are two very different sorts of "people."

Yes, and those two approaches- would have to lead to two very different types of stories, wouldn't they?

 

[rgraham666]

I've been working on a Mind Control story for months now.

I always feel like scrubbing my mind down with Lysol™ after each session of writing it as the central character is such a psychopath.

I just wish the story didn't demand that I work on it.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I can't write incest, because to do it right I'd have to draw on my own experiences with my own family and imagine what it would be like to fuck my own mother or sister (or dad, for that matter) and that just gives me the willies.

But then, I feel funny even dating a friend's ex-girfriend.

We had a big discussion about incest a while ago, and the consensus seemed to be that while people don't like to think about doing it themselves, they seem to like reading about other people doing it. Go figure.

 

[MichelleLovesTo]

The Best and Worst Intentions.

Yes, and those two approaches- would have to lead to two very different types of stories, wouldn't they?

Absolutely. In the MC world stories are often considered either 'pathic or 'mantic. A lot of writers reject the 'pathic label, but I'm okay with it.

I like writing evil characters -- it's freeing and (don't know what this says about me) easier for me. It's harder to take a good person and make their decision to do something "bad" seem credible. On the other hand, the MC story (posted elsewhere) which got me the most praise is all about a "good" character coming to grips with her power and finding a moral code she could accept. People responded well to her guilt when she saw the results of some of her choices.

But if you begin from a position of incest being someone's "thing," they have bought into the essential premise, and would be okay with very little struggle. I, on the other hand, think most incest suffers from people asking without any link to normal behavior. Fathers who've never been anything less than model parents deciding to have sex with daughters who are late coming home from a date. Brothers and sisters having sudden epiphanies that their sibling is the sexiest creature on earth (the second they both turn 18.) Oh, and a dearth of realistic dialogue. But many of these stories do well because the writer is preaching to the choir -- the reader doesn't need the realism so much as a lot of, "Oh Daddy, fill your daughter with baby juice!"

I had a story which did quite well among the MC crowd, even tying for first with another in a writing event. I posted it here and also got a nice response, but I also got a crit which said the sudden introduction of hypno was too abrupt. Well, in circumstance A I was marketing it to people who go looking for MC, and would be more pissed if there WASN'T MC or if I justified it too long. When I went to a more general crowd they expected more justification -- and rightfully so. It was a learning experience.

I belief a writer, in order to do the best story possible, has to be clear on their goals. When writing in any genre, it helps to know if you are writing for the hardcore enthusiasts, or hoping to appeal to a broader audience.

 

[MichelleLovesTo]

I've been working on a Mind Control story for months now.

I always feel like scrubbing my mind down with Lysol™ after each session of writing it as the central character is such a psychopath.

I just wish the story didn't demand that I work on it.

Sometimes I feel pretty alone in not sweating it when I write a dark character. I promise that in real life I'm almost too worried about not hurting others, but I figure fiction has it's own rules.

I'm interested to read the story when it's done, by the way!

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

The "morality" of writing a certain genre is a matter I'm more than willing to leave to the individual writer's value system. For me, the only type I'm interested in writing about involve consenting peers. If I ever made an exception, it'd be along the "exceptional" lines R. Richard mentioned.

Roxanne, you're a writer--and a good one. IMHO, you should write the story and then decide what to do.

Just a couple "for whatever it's worth" type thoughts about the genre.

This is a huge generalization, but the closer the relationship in an incest story, the greater the chance it'll score high. Child/parent tend to do better than brother/sister which do better than cousins. I can't remember where niece-nephew/aunt-uncle stories fit in. In other words, the "safer" the type, the less it seems to appeal to incest readers.

IMHO, incest stories are like Romance and many Gay/Lesbian stories in that they almost force the writer to create a complete story (beginning, middle, end). The problem is the primary tension in most incest story is: will they/won't they. It the story doesn't end with that issue being resolved, then it becomes a fairly standard sex-capade, though possibly with more complications.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Pure]

Hard questions

RA What do the psychologists say? Is this always the sign of a severely dysfunctional family environment? Are all individuals in such relationships necessarily “damaged goods” in their psyche before entering the thing, or afterwards as a result of it? Is there such a thing as “healthy incest,” which either enhances or makes no difference to a person’s chances of enjoying a happy life?

I think the psychiatrists and psychologists generally say incest is NOT healthy; they document a number of ill effects. Such a family would be 'dysfunctional' by definition, since boundaries are not maintained.

Freud would not dissent, I don't think. The *impulse* is natural, but not its gratification. He was not a sexual liberal/libertarian.

AS to whether there is any real case of 'healthy incest', I think that's a politically charged question. It's a bit like the question whether 'molestation' of a child (sexual activity of an adult, with them)has ill effects.

The unavoidable issue is that what a society says about 'forbidden' and 'damaging' tends to become the reality. A few decades back, the 'harms' of homosexual lifestyle were pointed to; but what was not pointed to was that the lifestyle was viewed as sick, depraved, and illegal, and THAT would influence its so called 'effects.'

I believe the Egyptians countenanced brother sister incest in the royal family.