humiliation.

[neonflux]

I draw a line between humiliation and degradation. Humiliation, in small doses, is fine, but I don't do degradation.

Actually, thank you for this, as in the main, I agree. Someone whom I greatly respect differentiated the two this way - humiliation is related to getting someone to do something that they actually might find enjoyable or arousing, but which they find embarrassing so are not likely to do without being "pushed." The end result of humiliation is ultimately to "build someone up." Degradation results in the opposite - breaking someone down for the sake of doing so.

The question for me becomes, are there certain types of degradation that, while in the moment they tear someone down, ultimately provide catharsis or release, so result in enhancing the bottom's sense of self? I think that this is what Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy refer to as "shadow play" in their "New Topping" and "New Bottoming" books. Even more complex, how does one differentiate between one and the other? There seems to be a very fine line between the two (one which I feel far from experienced enough to walk at this point).

Neon

 

[Recidiva]

Actually, thank you for this, as in the main, I agree. Someone whom I greatly respect differentiated the two this way - humiliation is related to getting someone to do something that they actually might find enjoyable or arousing, but which they find embarrassing so are not likely to do without being "pushed." The end result of humiliation is ultimately to "build someone up." Degradation results in the opposite - breaking someone down for the sake of doing so.

The question for me becomes, are there certain types of degradation that, while in the moment they tear someone down, ultimately provide catharsis or release, so result in enhancing the bottom's sense of self? I think that this is what Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy refer to as "shadow play" in their "New Topping" and "New Bottoming" books. Even more complex, how does one differentiate between one and the other? There seems to be a very fine line between the two (one which I feel far from experienced enough to walk at this point).

Neon

Good distinction, thank you.

There is a difference between "hurt" and "harm" and that helps clarify it further. Humiliation can be erotic in a certain context. To me, degradation is not.

 

[neonflux]

Good distinction, thank you.

There is a difference between "hurt" and "harm" and that helps clarify it further. Humiliation can be erotic in a certain context. To me, degradation is not.

I like your distinction between "hurt" and "harm." It just occured to me, in reading your response, that regardless of whether the top or bottom, degradation could certainly harm both parties. One of the primary themes in the Harry Potter books is that of "rending one's soul," with a series of such acts ultimately resulting in Voldemort's demise. For me, causing harm to someone when Topping would certainly be such an act, I would think.

Ultimately, it is hard for me to envision engaging in any activity, either as Top or bottom, which is not done with respect, for both self and other. Certainly, one person's humiliation might be another's degradation, so it also seems to me that the responsibility for ensuring the first rests with both parties.

Neon

 

[BiBunny]

I guess I play on both sides of the humiliation/degradation line. Humiliation is fun because it turns me on. Degradation is fun, not because it breaks me down, but for the time he spends building me back up when it's over. I have no idea how to explain what it does for me. I feel like he really cares about me because he does this because I need it. I know I'm in the minority, but I'm starting to feel a little whacked in the head, LOL.

 

[Recidiva]

I like your distinction between "hurt" and "harm." It just occured to me, in reading your response, that regardless of whether the top or bottom, degradation could certainly harm both parties. One of the primary themes in the Harry Potter books is that of "rending one's soul," with a series of such acts ultimately resulting in Voldemort's demise. For me, causing harm to someone when Topping would certainly be such an act, I would think.

Ultimately, it is hard for me to envision engaging in any activity, either as Top or bottom, which is not done with respect, for both self and other. Certainly, one person's humiliation might be another's degradation, so it also seems to me that the responsibility for ensuring the first rests with both parties.

Neon

Yes, I think that many paths go two ways. You can explore your limits because you want to learn, become stronger, become wiser, become more intimate. That path might hurt, but so does going to the gym.

Or you can obliterate limits because you want limits to no longer mean anything at all to you. Once everything everyone else has and you have loses its meaning, you no longer need to respect it or care if a person or a relationship or anything else, is destroyed to serve your purpose. That path does harm, and it's an end in itself. Gathering power and getting personal status through that destruction.

I get the allure of that, but it's not where I go. That makes me less hard core, and more respectful of certain organic limits I choose to honor and not test after it rebounds hard on me once or twice. I think creation is harder (for me) than destruction, and that's probably why I choose it.

Other people get why destruction is harder in its own way, and go the same iron man or woman path, all according to starting conditions and temperament.

 

[Recidiva]

I guess I play on both sides of the humiliation/degradation line. Humiliation is fun because it turns me on. Degradation is fun, not because it breaks me down, but for the time he spends building me back up when it's over. I have no idea how to explain what it does for me. I feel like he really cares about me because he does this because I need it. I know I'm in the minority, but I'm starting to feel a little whacked in the head, LOL.

But I don't think it's inherently whacked in the head. It makes sense to you. And you like the building back up, so it doesn't do any permanent harm.

 

[neonflux]

I guess I play on both sides of the humiliation/degradation line. Humiliation is fun because it turns me on. Degradation is fun, not because it breaks me down, but for the time he spends building me back up when it's over. I have no idea how to explain what it does for me. I feel like he really cares about me because he does this because I need it. I know I'm in the minority, but I'm starting to feel a little whacked in the head, LOL.

I agree with Recidiva on this, BiBunny. I don't find it whacked at all. It sounds like the play is ultimately healing? That the end result is positive? I wonder if this isn't then part of the "shadow play" concept?

Neon

 

[Shankara20]

random thought = a few ProDomms I knew in my past life did a thriving business with clients wanting degradation play. I wonder if that sort of play works out more in money based relationships more then in emotional based relationships. I know a few men that feel a real need to be on the receiving end for the "you pile of shit" stuff once in a while.

I'm not saying it is healthy, only that it happens.

 

[BiBunny]

I agree with Recidiva on this, BiBunny. I don't find it whacked at all. It sounds like the play is ultimately healing? That the end result is positive? I wonder if this isn't then part of the "shadow play" concept?

Neon

It is ultimately healing for me. I think it's mostly an "I love you in spite of all your flaws" thing. The end result is positive, and I think it does fall under the "shadow play" concept, at least for me.

 

[Recidiva]

random thought = a few ProDomms I knew in my past life did a thriving business with clients wanting degradation play. I wonder if that sort of play works out more in money based relationships more then in emotional based relationships. I know a few men that feel a real need to be on the receiving end for the "you pile of shit" stuff once in a while.

I'm not saying it is healthy, only that it happens.

It's at least easier to approach when it's irrelevant emotionally and it's voluntary and you're requesting it. Those guys are often also the ones who have a high pressure jobs, where I almost consider it as necessary as a chiropractic adjustment, putting balance back into the power plays of their lives.

I have known some guys who were really into it and wanted it from me, and I just couldn't oblige long term. But they were highly ambitious and believed a great deal in social degradation in business as a tool.

 

[Shankara20]

It's at least easier to approach when it's irrelevant emotionally and it's voluntary and you're requesting it. Those guys are often also the ones who have a high pressure jobs, where I almost consider it as necessary as a chiropractic adjustment, putting balance back into the power plays of their lives.

I have known some guys who were really into it and wanted it from me, and I just couldn't oblige long term. But they were highly ambitious and believed a great deal in social degradation in business as a tool.

I hold a similar POW.

The one ProDomme I lived with enjoyed that sort of work (degradation) for many years, but eventually she got to where it just took more energy from her then it was worth. She also got fed up with the foot worshipers, but that is for some other thread.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

i just can't do it.

it's one of the bdsm stereotypes though. all should love it.
so i want an idea of numbers.

Being new to this and coming into myself as a sub, I haven't yet found anything that I wouldn't do for my Dom. However, he's very gentle and reassuring with me in the way he treats me, especially if he thinks that something is bothering me.

That being said, depending on what he asked in the way of humiliation, I would probably not be abject to doing it for him, to please him, because I know he would be gentle with me. I also know that if there were something that I could truly not do for him, he wouldn't push and make me feel like he cares about me any less.

 

[Recidiva]

I hold a similar POW.

The one ProDomme I lived with enjoyed that sort of work (degradation) for many years, but eventually she got to where it just took more energy from her then it was worth. She also got fed up with the foot worshipers, but that is for some other thread.

Yes, that's where I fail as a Domme in a private, emotional relationships. I want things ultimately to be for your own good. If I really could see that it was, I could do it. But ultimately I do get really sick of fetish repeated without deviation.

Hell, man, I don't even like making a recipe the same way twice. It's not something I enjoy.

But sure, if you're paying me, that's a different story.

 

[neonflux]

I hold a similar POW.

The one ProDomme I lived with enjoyed that sort of work (degradation) for many years, but eventually she got to where it just took more energy from her then it was worth. She also got fed up with the foot worshipers, but that is for some other thread.

Did she ever talk to you about what it gave her clients? I know of someone (black & sub) who talks about how "race play" helps him go out and deal with the real world. I would iimagine that any Pro Domme worth their salt would find it exhausting - one walks such a fine line here between, as Recidiva phrased it earlier, "harm" and "hurt." I don't think I could do it because of the possible repercussions. Plus, honestly, degradation and emotional sadism just isn't my thing... I can't connect to it emotionally. Neon

 

[Netzach]

I actually got really charged up about it. It was like plugging me in on a day I was dragging. I decided not to overthink something that got me that excited and I haven't killed anyone yet doing so, 'cause I look for the signs to stop and ask the questions to know not to go there when I shouldn't go there, and leave it to people to take care of their boundaries to some extent. I think caution and prudence are fine, but I also think sometimes a hard on is just a hard on, and not everything has to be analyzed out of the zone of the erotic.

Some people really get off on negativity for reasons as complex as anything under the sun. I'm just glad there are people compatibly fucked up with me.

 

[BiBunny]

I actually got really charged up about it. It was like plugging me in on a day I was dragging. I decided not to overthink something that got me that excited and I haven't killed anyone yet doing so, 'cause I look for the signs to stop and ask the questions to know not to go there when I shouldn't go there, and leave it to people to take care of their boundaries to some extent. I think caution and prudence are fine, but I also think sometimes a hard on is just a hard on, and not everything has to be analyzed out of the zone of the erotic.

Some people really get off on negativity for reasons as complex as anything under the sun. I'm just glad there are people compatibly fucked up with me.

Emotional masochism gets me off like nothing else. I have no idea why the reverse isn't true.

 

[neonflux]

I actually got really charged up about it. It was like plugging me in on a day I was dragging. I decided not to overthink something that got me that excited and I haven't killed anyone yet doing so, 'cause I look for the signs to stop and ask the questions to know not to go there when I shouldn't go there, and leave it to people to take care of their boundaries to some extent. I think caution and prudence are fine, but I also think sometimes a hard on is just a hard on, and not everything has to be analyzed out of the zone of the erotic.

Some people really get off on negativity for reasons as complex as anything under the sun. I'm just glad there are people compatibly fucked up with me.

You do check in, though. One of the things that I definitely agree with you on is the "joint responsibility" both people have for ensuring their needs are met and things don't go too far. Re: over-analyzing, I suspect that at times I resemble that remark, LOL.

I guess that the bottom line for me is that while I can be quite impish when I top, and I enjoy activities like predicament bondage and increasing a bottom's anxiety, and I do sometimes really enjoy humiliation play, that's where I stop. When bottoming, anything but very humiliation is actually one of my hard limits (I know, hard to define).

Question: do you enjoy degradation play equally with men and women, or is there a difference? You once mentioned in another thread that you are harder on men, but I assumed that within the context of the thread that had to do with physical play...

Neon

 

[Chris_Xavier]

Disappointed

I have to say that I am somewhat disappointed in some of the posts that I've just read. Alot of the subs who are always so quick to fall all over themselves trying to prove that they are "subbier than thou" are the ones saying "nope, not me".

While I realize that each of us have our own triggers I thought alot of subs would like being call "slut", "whore" and other not so polite adjectives. I remember reading that a few of them said if the possessive "my" is put in front of the negative comment it makes it alright.. but what is the difference? All the possessive does is just focus the source of the humiliation.. not reduce it.

The one sub I didn't think would be into humiliation is the one who seems to crave it the most.

 

[BiBunny]

I have to say that I am somewhat disappointed in some of the posts that I've just read. Alot of the subs who are always so quick to fall all over themselves trying to prove that they are "subbier than thou" are the ones saying "nope, not me".

While I realize that each of us have our own triggers I thought alot of subs would like being call "slut", "whore" and other not so polite adjectives. I remember reading that a few of them said if the possessive "my" is put in front of the negative comment it makes it alright.. but what is the difference? All the possessive does is just focus the source of the humiliation.. not reduce it.

The one sub I didn't think would be into humiliation is the one who seems to crave it the most.

I try not to let my own bullshit insecurities get in the way of our good time.

 

[Netzach]

You do check in, though. One of the things that I definitely agree with you on is the "joint responsibility" both people have for ensuring their needs are met and things don't go too far. Re: over-analyzing, I suspect that at times I resemble that remark, LOL.

I guess that the bottom line for me is that while I can be quite impish when I top, and I enjoy activities like predicament bondage and increasing a bottom's anxiety, and I do sometimes really enjoy humiliation play, that's where I stop. When bottoming, anything but very humiliation is actually one of my hard limits (I know, hard to define).

Question: do you enjoy degradation play equally with men and women, or is there a difference? You once mentioned in another thread that you are harder on men, but I assumed that within the context of the thread that had to do with physical play...

Neon

I like it better with men, but I meet far more men into it. I suspect strongly that if I met a woman into serious objectification, who appeared to be counteracting a very strong ego, someone I could relate to, I'd be ALL over it. Maybe it's my own projection, but I am much more *comfortable* with "thing" "idiot" and "stupid cow" than I am with "whore" and "slut" - I'd love it if more girls clocked in where I do. As it stands, men seem to be more able to take blows above the belt when it comes to the source of shame.

I also have to say that I'm rethinking the whole "if it doesn't feel horrible it's not really humiliation" trap. Hello - if someone likes physical pain we don't say "well that's not really pain then if you like it..." Maybe it's not suffering, but it's still pain. Likewise with emotional play / hum / shame.

 

[BiBunny]

I like it better with men, but I meet far more men into it. I suspect strongly that if I met a woman into serious objectification, who appeared to be counteracting a very strong ego, someone I could relate to, I'd be ALL over it. Maybe it's my own projection, but I am much more *comfortable* with "thing" "idiot" and "stupid cow" than I am with "whore" and "slut" - I'd love it if more girls clocked in where I do. As it stands, men seem to be more able to take blows above the belt when it comes to the source of shame.

Ummm...pick me? *Raises hand shyly*

 

[Netzach]

Ummm...pick me? *Raises hand shyly*

Meow! If only you weren't so damn far.

 

[BiBunny]

Meow! If only you weren't so damn far.

Tell me about it. *Pout* Maybe I'll find myself up that way one day, and I can bring B., too. Two for the price of one.

 

[Chris_Xavier]

Ummm...pick me? *Raises hand shyly*

Jeez you're such an easy lil sub..

 

[BiBunny]

Jeez you're such an easy lil sub..

Yeah, pretty much.