human rights

[Debbie]

Supposedly human rights include the right to life and liberty, freedom from slavery and torture, freedom of opinion and expression, the right to work and education, and many more. Everyone is entitled to these rights, without discrimination.

I'd like to add being able to end my life with dignity if I am diagnosed with a debilitating illness or being in chronic pain with no likelihood of getting better and including losing my marbles.

I like my marbles.

 

[Que]

I don't know how anybody could reasonably argue with you on this.

I find the concept of a suicide personally repugnant but I can't argue with the idea that others clearly have the right to make that choice.

I've had suicidal ideations most of my life but I can't imagine actually doing such a thing ever. For any reason.

I view emotional pain as always survivable. Tomorrow is another day. Physical pain I've experienced without the benefit of any pain medication to even blunt it because it was contra-indicated due to my concurrent, but non-serious facial lacerations would be hard to exceed and stay conscious.

I do kind of get though how even nagging pain that's prolonged systemic and enduring might actually be worse.

It's also hard for me to appropriately empathize because I've got a very high pain and endurance threshold.

We already have so many options for pain management that I can't see why one wouldn't want to just quietly be eased into that good night in a hospice setting where it isn't straight up assisted suicide but it might as well be. I don't really look down upon those sort of options although even that I don't think I would accept for myself.

I hope that you and yours are currently healthy and well in this is just idle musing and not related to anything in real life. Be well.

 

[KimGordon67]

Supposedly human rights include the right to life and liberty, freedom from slavery and torture, freedom of opinion and expression, the right to work and education, and many more. Everyone is entitled to these rights, without discrimination.

I'd like to add being able to end my life with dignity if I am diagnosed with a debilitating illness or being in chronic pain with no likelihood of getting better and including losing my marbles.

I like my marbles.

I'm totally in favour of this ... although it seems odd that it's Seymour who's introduced the bill. I don't know why I think that ... probably just because I usually disagree with most things he says.

I haven't been watching the media on this issue - is there a sense that it'll pass?

 

[Debbie]

I get that life is sacred and some consider suicide is a sin but what happens if we rename it?

Perhaps to something more catchy like the person has reached their expiry date?


Kim.

"More than 90 per cent of Kiwis who made submissions on the euthanasia bill want the proposed law change scrapped.

But backers of the controversial bill say scientific surveys are a better guide on public opinion and have consistently found majority support for euthanasia or assisted dying."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12217759

I dislike the govt wasting money on referendums but I do think we should have one when it comes to euthanasia.

End of Life Choice Bill

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bil...s/document/BILL_74307/end-of-life-choice-bill

Seems to be slow progress from what I've read.


Que, I was listening to a podcast discussing voluntary euthanasia, physician-assisted suicide and so forth for and against and some were sharing their personal experiences caring for a terminally ill person.

bigred and I are still in good nick at this point in time. Thank you.

 

[KimGordon67]

I get that life is sacred and some consider suicide is a sin but what happens if we rename it?

Perhaps to something more catchy like the person has reached their expiry date?


Kim.

"More than 90 per cent of Kiwis who made submissions on the euthanasia bill want the proposed law change scrapped.

But backers of the controversial bill say scientific surveys are a better guide on public opinion and have consistently found majority support for euthanasia or assisted dying."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12217759

I dislike the govt wasting money on referendums but I do think we should have one when it comes to euthanasia.

End of Life Choice Bill

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bil...s/document/BILL_74307/end-of-life-choice-bill

Seems to be slow progress from what I've read.

Yeah, the submissions process is not an excellent gauge of actual public opinion, because only those who (a) know about the submissions process; (b) know a particular bill is being debated and (c) have the time and energy and level of concern to make a submission end up doing so. It's maybe a way of MPs getting to see positions they might not have otherwise considered, but it doesn't really represent the wishes of the country.

 

[SpeareChucker]

"I'd like to add being able to end my life with dignity if ..."
Debbiexxx


It's all subjective, like the philosophy 101 recursive and circular attempt to define 'good.'
Historically, a stoic death was a noble death with dignity.
How can suicide be "dignified?"
Who can define this?
Everyone?
Anyone?
Bueller?

 

[SpeareChucker]

I can find examples of noble, dignified suicide when I study Greek philosophers,
but it had little to do with pain and a lot to do with drinking hemlock
for the good of the City-State...

 

[KimGordon67]

"I'd like to add being able to end my life with dignity if ..."
Debbiexxx


It's all subjective, like the philosophy 101 recursive and circular attempt to define 'good.'
Historically, a stoic death was a noble death with dignity.
How can suicide be "dignified?"
Who can define this?
Everyone?
Anyone?
Bueller?

I would say in this instance, the definition of 'dignity' can be pretty readily left up to the individual. But in the specific context being discussed, it's medically assisted.

 

[Que]

I would say in this instance, the definition of 'dignity' can be pretty readily left up to the individual. But in the specific context being discussed, it's medically assisted.

Kind of have to he in order for it to not harm others. I can't even imagine the trauma that emergency workers must go through when they unexpectedly encounter a suicide. That's obviously not fair to them. Worse still, would be those who leave family members with an unexpected suicide. I can't imagine being that thoughtless no matter how the rift I was at my circumstances in life.

 

[KimGordon67]

Kind of have to he in order for it to not harm others. I can't even imagine the trauma that emergency workers must go through when they unexpectedly encounter a suicide. That's obviously not fair to them. Worse still, would be those who leave family members with an unexpected suicide. I can't imagine being that thoughtless no matter how the rift I was at my circumstances in life.

Well, that's what happens when you give people the freedom to express themselves.

 

[Debbie]

Yeah, the submissions process is not an excellent gauge of actual public opinion, because only those who (a) know about the submissions process; (b) know a particular bill is being debated and (c) have the time and energy and level of concern to make a submission end up doing so. It's maybe a way of MPs getting to see positions they might not have otherwise considered, but it doesn't really represent the wishes of the country.

I was quite surprised by the majority of submissions against legalising euthanasia.

But if it was put to referendum maybe more would participate and give a more accurate representation of what the country thinks/wants.

 

[KimGordon67]

I was quite surprised by the majority of submissions against legalising euthanasia.

But if it was put to referendum maybe more would participate and give a more accurate representation of what the country thinks/wants.

I think having referenda at the same time as voting is the way to go ... even though we have spectacularly low voter turnouts, it's still better than participation would be otherwise. It's a funny one though, eh? Kind of like abortions - if you're opposed to voluntary euthanasia, don't do it. But having the option available to others is hardly any skin off your nose.

 

[Debbie]

"I'd like to add being able to end my life with dignity if ..."
Debbiexxx


It's all subjective, like the philosophy 101 recursive and circular attempt to define 'good.'
Historically, a stoic death was a noble death with dignity.
How can suicide be "dignified?"
Who can define this?
Everyone?
Anyone?
Bueller?

If it's up to me I would die with dignity going sky diving and dying of fright with a look of horror on my face. I'm a huge horror fan and like the idea of being literally scared to death.

 

[InsightRiot]

If it's up to me I would die with dignity going sky diving and dying of fright with a look of horror on my face. I'm a huge horror fan and like the idea of being literally scared to death.

Then someone has to clean your splat up. That's not very nice.

 

[KimGordon67]

If it's up to me I would die with dignity going sky diving and dying of fright with a look of horror on my face. I'm a huge horror fan and like the idea of being literally scared to death.

Brilliant ... possibly not quite what Seymour is envisaging, but I could totally get behind that.

 

[Debbie]

Then someone has to clean your splat up. That's not very nice.

My burial pod is already paid for. I'd make wonderful compost.

 

[SpeareChucker]

I would say in this instance, the definition of 'dignity' can be pretty readily left up to the individual. But in the specific context being discussed, it's medically assisted.

Why would it be up to an individual? Don't they have too much personally vested in an emotional decision which might best be handled by cooler, calmer heads, people expert and educated about 'the end of life?'

In a world where it is a crime to do so little as to drive without a seatbelt, in order for society to better protect you, how is it that an individual gets to make life and death decisions because "they don't feel good?"

 

[KimGordon67]

Why would it be up to an individual? Don't they have too much personally vested in an emotional decision which might best be handled by cooler, calmer heads, people expert and educated about 'the end of life?'

In a world where it is a crime to do so little as to drive without a seatbelt, in order for society to better protect you, how is it that an individual gets to make life and death decisions because "they don't feel good?"

Maybe have a look at Debbie's original post - the circumstances she's citing are quite specific, and a bit more consequential than 'not feeling good'.

 

[InsightRiot]

My burial pod is already paid for. I'd make wonderful compost.

Also, I just realized you meant skydiving with a parachute.
(It's late for me, I couldn't sleep)

 

[SpeareChucker]

Maybe have a look at Debbie's original post - the circumstances she's citing are quite specific, and a bit more consequential than 'not feeling good'.

I know.
The advocated circumstances are always quite specific, but only a subset of the issue.
The problem with subsets of issues is that to make it normative, or law, then you have to have intersectionality with other subsets, i.e., you have to expand your definition because, unless it is an absolute tyranny, no single individual controls the "definition."

It's no different with a life and death issue be it this, or abortion.
In order to get what you want, you have to give other people what they want, even if it's just suicide as a 'convenience.'

Debbiexxx's OP is shallow and emotional proving that it is not well thought out and most certainly not by you.

 

[InsightRiot]

IDK, medically assisted suicide? Now you're including other people in your choice to die.

What kind of mental health issues would that create for the suicide staff? That can't be good for people, killing people.

 

[SpeareChucker]

IDK, medically assisted suicide? Now you're including other people in your choice to die.

What kind of mental health issues would that create for the suicide staff? That can't be good for people, killing people.

You also make a mockery of a historical and important oath/principle.

 

[InsightRiot]

You also make a mockery of a historical and important oath/principle.

But the polytheist pagans sentenced the heathen to death by hemlock for talking about an inner divine voice (the start of monism). Our version was built on monism.

 

[KimGordon67]

I know.
The advocated circumstances are always quite specific, but only a subset of the issue.
The problem with subsets of issues is that to make it normative, or law, then you have to have intersectionality with other subsets, i.e., you have to expand your definition because, unless it is an absolute tyranny, no single individual controls the "definition."

It's no different with a life and death issue be it this, or abortion.
In order to get what you want, you have to give other people what they want, even if it's just suicide as a 'convenience.'

Debbiexxx's OP is shallow and emotional proving that it is not well thought out and most certainly not by you.

There are often 'subsets' that provide exceptions to otherwise accepted law, social practice, etc. For example, injuring people is mostly illegal, but it's OK to do it in self-defence - that can even extend to killing another person.

I don't understand this use of 'emotional' as thought it's a negative. The decision to end your own life in the event of an incurable illness will inevitably be emotional - how could it be otherwise? Properly managed euthanasia would contain a series of checks and balances to safeguard against various things, including the person involved just having a bad day.

I can only assume you've never seen the stress caused to a family who is waiting for a person they to love to die while watching them do so in an way that nobody wants, least of all the person who is dying. It's awful, with an outcome that is utterly inevitable. The fact that there is no alternative available is pretty ridiculous. But of course ... feelings. So, y'know, we really shouldn't take any of that into account.

 

[KimGordon67]

You also make a mockery of a historical and important oath/principle.

Oh ... so we should take the feelings of the health workers into account ... but not those of the person who is dying? Do you think health workers like watching someone in pain whose outcome is inevitable? You don't think THAT'S distressing for them? (I'm really referring to your quote of IR's comment here - I've got IR on ignore, so I didn't see their post until you quoted it.)