How Useful Are Outlines?

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

How Much Research Do You Do?

I'm re-reading a book, WRITING VIOLENCE by Rory Miller, to help me get my mind right about a story I'm cobbling together.

I have no idea if Miller's credentials are legit or bullshit but what he says jives with my violent experiences. Like: Martial arts training is an intense course of preparation for an asswhupping; black belts cover 2 inches of your butt; real bad asses don't play by any rules; and the guy with the most bullets usually wins the fistfight.

What I wanna do is build two characters outta the right material.

So, how much research do you do for your stories?

 

[LWulf]

Topic question:
Most times I write a story it is right off the cuff. Those, though, are short stories. I have the whole story written out from beginning to end in my head and are basically transcribing them when I write.

When I was growing up, I was lucky to have a parent who knew some big wigs in fiction writing. Actually he was college chums with the husband of one writer but she had a tight group of friends and when someone said "party"...BOOM!

On occasion, I was suddenly surrounded by some "biggies". I tried to be the respectful little fanboy, and ask them as few questions as possible (with only regret; meeting one obnoxious condescending elitist SOB, who, unless you had an IQ of 180, then you were below him talking to. To this day, if someone mentions him, I go into a tirade of why NOT to like his damn books. I don't care how popular the movie versions turned out! *spits*).
Ok, breathe, breathe, back on topic...

The point is, that I had/still been trying to write one story since I was 10 and can't write it (tried many times), the wife (now dead famous writer) had stayed with us for 3 months or so at one time and tied many ways to try to help me out of my dilemma. (A nice, sweet lady, a bit of a wacko, but who isn't?) Most of which were basics and one was ...using an outline.

I have for the most part always scoffed at outlines especially in school and college, because of my ability to just write off the cuff. By the time most people were done writing their outlines, I was done writing my thesis.

However, for this one story (about 2-3 books worth, I think) I have gotten closest to making headway writing it by using an outline. Necessary for every situation? Heck no, but basics are there for ...people like me.

What I wanna do is build two characters outta the right material.

So, how much research do you do for your stories?

It depends on what type of fiction you are writing, doesn't it? A fantasy fiction has no real limits, except the imagination. Still, even most fantasy seems more genuine with recognizable "sign posts".

This is tough for me to say because I retain most of what I see (fails more as I age). So, I might have read a reference from when I was 8, and retain it. Now does the time between me using it from the time it was read, mean it is less worthy as "research"?
I am not against using research, and have done some various research for short stories. Nothing for the public, just shorts I publish on the internet nowadays...
I think, the more vivid the character, or the more unfamiliar the setting, the more you would want to do research. I think it can only help at that point.

 

[Dyslexicea]

I like Stephen Kings take on this. If you are in a state of freeflow your subconscious is taking you somewhere. Paint yourself into a box. You'll figure a way out. If you don't know exactly where you're going, you can't give it away to your reader.

That may work for you. I suppose it worked for Stephen King, by the way I'm not a fan, but using his work, which at times has totally illogical jumps, as being the right way to write is not the point.

The point is what works for you, what works for me. There is no right way or wrong way to write. I use outlines, it works for me, and I assure you it doesn't take away the joy of writing, which at times isn't joyful at all, it's hard work.

What an outline doesn't do is restrict the writer from changing course and altering her story. The truth is if you're on the second or third novel in a series you had better have some kind of outline, along with some very good notes pertaining to your main character or characters.

I'm re-reading a book, WRITING VIOLENCE by Rory Miller, to help me get my mind right about a story I'm cobbling together.

I have no idea if Miller's credentials are legit or bullshit but what he says jives with my violent experiences. Like: Martial arts training is an intense course of preparation for an asswhupping; black belts cover 2 inches of your butt; real bad asses don't play by any rules; and the guy with the most bullets usually wins the fistfight.

What I wanna do is build two characters outta the right material.

So, how much research do you do for your stories?

If I were to write a story about violent men, maybe serial killers, I'd have to do a lot of research, I just don't understand the violent nature of men. Male characters don't come naturally to me, so I'm always asking my male friends for input, which is research.

If my story takes place somewhere I'm not familiar with I have to research about that place. Even places I am somewhat familiar with I still have to do research. Depending on how important a place is to my story is the determining factor on how much research I need to do. Of course if it's a short story or a story with little value it just isn't worth it to do much more research than a quick internet search.

If I were to write a story about a doctor working in a hospital I'd need to do some research. If my main character was a carpenter I'd have to do research, I'd talk to carpenters.

The determining factor, for me, on research is, one how important is it to my story, two how much time does the research take versus the value of the story. Third is reality important to my story.

 

[sr71plt]

So, how much research do you do for your stories?

I try to research anything I know beforehand is going to make me stop and research in the middle of the writing. Presumed character's names. Names of places--both geographical and business--and any organizations. procedural methods. Historical facts I'm going to use. Foreign terms I'm going to use (I use a lot of foreign locales and other time periods).

And invariably I still have to stop and do research during the writing.

 

[SecondCircle]

I forget who quoted this but on the topic of agonizing over writing, I heard this once.

A surgeon at a dinner party mused to his friends, "When I retire, I think I'll write a novel."

The writer beside him mused, "When I retire, I think I'll operate on people."

Sorta demonstrates how usually people think writing is cut and dry and easy. Now to many of us, it mostly comes natural. I never knew why, but writing just seemed to be easy to me. Without trying usually. Doesn't mean I'm a professional and I don't have flaws, but to everyone else I know, they simply don't get the art of writing, or how it came easily to me.

As far as outlines go, I use them and I don't. On the short stories here at Lit? Never. It's not hard to let it "flow" with a shorter story. But I have (for fun) written longer novel length stories with intricate pieces from several characters that must fit together for the story to make sense. I would agree with the poster that said that use just basic outlines, telling what the scene is and what its purpose or main idea is.

They can be helpful. They aren't always necessary, but outlines ain't this evil impedance of creativity that most people seem to think.

A river will still flow, but sometimes we want the hills and the rocks to help dictate how the paths they weave.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

That may work for you. I suppose it worked for Stephen King, by the way I'm not a fan, but using his work, which at times has totally illogical jumps, as being the right way to write is not the point.

The point is what works for you, what works for me. There is no right way or wrong way to write. I use outlines, it works for me, and I assure you it doesn't take away the joy of writing, which at times isn't joyful at all, it's hard work.

What an outline doesn't do is restrict the writer from changing course and altering her story. The truth is if you're on the second or third novel in a series you had better have some kind of outline, along with some very good notes pertaining to your main character or characters.



If I were to write a story about violent men, maybe serial killers, I'd have to do a lot of research, I just don't understand the violent nature of men. Male characters don't come naturally to me, so I'm always asking my male friends for input, which is research.

If my story takes place somewhere I'm not familiar with I have to research about that place. Even places I am somewhat familiar with I still have to do research. Depending on how important a place is to my story is the determining factor on how much research I need to do. Of course if it's a short story or a story with little value it just isn't worth it to do much more research than a quick internet search.

If I were to write a story about a doctor working in a hospital I'd need to do some research. If my main character was a carpenter I'd have to do research, I'd talk to carpenters.

The determining factor, for me, on research is, one how important is it to my story, two how much time does the research take versus the value of the story. Third is reality important to my story.

I try not to be anal about details, cuz lotsa experienced pros have their own ways, but I try and toss in a few details that all experts recognize as the real deal. The stereotypes, I guess youd say. Like, sheet metal workers use a special kind of folding rule totally different from what carpenters use. And they use tinners hammers NOT claw hammers. And their hands are cut in a 1000 places.

 

[GradeACdnBeef]

The point is what works for you, what works for me. There is no right way or wrong way to write. I use outlines, it works for me, and I assure you it doesn't take away the joy of writing, which at times isn't joyful at all, it's hard work.

What an outline doesn't do is restrict the writer from changing course and altering her story...

I agree. I think there are as many writing styles as there are writers. I liked Kings book on writing though I am not a big fan either. He does seem very broken. I prefer to write freestyle then as King says "cut everything that isn't the story". With a larger piece, I write until things start coming clear and then I will use a simple outline to keep me on track to some degree, though going off track will take you places you don't expect, which is good too. When I go off track, I watch carefully, and when I see it isn't working, it's off the slag heap or cut and pasted into it's own document to be considered later if I think it holds merits. (Yeah, I know that's a long sentence.) As soon as you make anything hard and fast, it becomes hard, fast, and boring. That's why they're outlines.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

What an outline doesn't do is restrict the writer from changing course and altering her story. The truth is if you're on the second or third novel in a series you had better have some kind of outline, along with some very good notes pertaining to your main character or characters.

Exactly. The brief outline I use is not an iron-barred cage constraining my creativity. Rather, it is a road map with a few important points of interest marked along the way. I can deviate from the route any time I want, so long as I hit all the important spots between the origin and final destination.

 

[Dyslexicea]

I try not to be anal about details, cuz lotsa experienced pros have their own ways, but I try and toss in a few details that all experts recognize as the real deal. The stereotypes, I guess youd say. Like, sheet metal workers use a special kind of folding rule totally different from what carpenters use. And they use tinners hammers NOT claw hammers. And their hands are cut in a 1000 places.

I should never have mentioned carpenters. I've already sketched out a character profile on my carpenter. She's hot, she literally drips sex appeal. She's tall, lean with well defined muscles but not muscular in a masculine way. She the crew foreman, hard nosed, willful and dominate, totally unwilling to take any shit from her crew. She know what she want and she's willing to take it and what she wants is me!

 

[sr71plt]

I figure about the third time someone posts what they do about something on a thread like this, they've stopped just giving information on what works for them and have started saying everyone else should do it too.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I should never have mentioned carpenters. I've already sketched out a character profile on my carpenter. She's hot, she literally drips sex appeal. She's tall, lean with well defined muscles but not muscular in a masculine way. She the crew foreman, hard nosed, willful and dominate, totally unwilling to take any shit from her crew. She know what she want and she's willing to take it and what she wants is me!

Carpentry is really teamwork, the crew will often eject whomever isn't carrying his end of the board. From what I've observed of carpenters the foreman does all the heavy thinking, especially with respect to roof framing. The foreman gets involved where its critical to be right, then lets the crew do their thang.

Let me recommend GODS POCKET by Pete Dexter. Its a tale of how a foreman and his best mason handle a worthless piece of shit (and his mafia friends). Oughta give you some ideas to explore.