How Useful Are Outlines?

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'm starting to think there may be some method to the madness of outlines.

 

[autoplot]

It all depends on whether they work for you. Some people just work better by pantsing it the whole way.

I find an outline helps tremendously, if I leave it fairly bare -- how many scenes, what each scene is supposed to accomplish, some character notes, and that's it. I don't outline so exhaustively that I leave no chance for surprises or room for the characters to breathe. Just enough to know where the story is going and how each scene will move the plot forward.

For some of my longer (non-erotic) work, they're pretty much life-savers. I'd be lost without them. I started outlining, I started finishing more books.

 

[Derroreaper]

I totally agree with autoplot on this one. The more intricate the plot line, the more I rely on one. For 5,000-8,000 words, not so much, but for the novel length stuff I work on, its a life saver.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

I write non-fiction for a living, and I have always used a detailed outline for that type of work. I didn't think I needed it when writing short erotic fiction, but I have since learned otherwise.

I use a brief outline that contains major plot points and some important details that I might forget. I didn't start out that way, but after leaving out details on a couple occasions I started the practice. Also, when I have to quit for the day I usually leave instructions for myself telling me how to start the next scene. That improves the flow and keeps the story from veering off in a different direction.

 

[sr71plt]

For nonfiction, I outline. For long fiction, I have a few notes. For short fiction, I wing it on the pretty detailed concepts my mind drops on me. The fun for me in short fiction is the journey and the discovery--while I'm writing.

 

[Saxon_Hart]

I usually write out a list of character names and ages, and a few key plot points for most stories, but I rarely work from a full outline. Usually the story is playing out so much in my head that I know where it's going when I sit to write.

 

[Dyslexicea]

For nonfiction, I outline. For long fiction, I have a few notes. For short fiction, I wing it on the pretty detailed concepts my mind drops on me. The fun for me in short fiction is the journey and the discovery--while I'm writing.

For most articles I write I do use an outline, including any research I may need to do.

Long fiction my outlines are very detailed, including characters and any research I need. One thing I try not to do is make my characters to rigid, I want them to be able to grow. Basically names, some background and how they fit into my story. At time I'll actually interview a character, the whys and wherefores of their life.

But, isn't there always a but, at times I just like to sit down and write. Let the story create its own world. It even amazes me where my characters take the story. As for erotica it sometimes startles me just how slutty my women characters can become.

 

[lovecraft68]

I wrote my 900k plus SWB series with nothing more than three paragraphs written on a napkin. I let it flow and it all came together.

I did the same for a 240k Circle novel. I let the story tell itself.

I think for me, I can't write under a "Okay, I said this would happen now happen dammit!"

By locking yourself into a
A-this happens
B-that happens and leads into part two
C- this guy dies

You're taking away the creative flow.

But everyone works differently

 

[sunandshadow]

locking yourself into

I think this is THE major misconception about outlines. An outline doesn't lock you into anything. YOU are writing the outline, YOU are allowed to rewrite it whenever you want if you have a more interesting idea. You can outline before you start writing, but you can also outline or re-outline at any point during the first draft or after the whole first draft is complete.

 

[sr71plt]

I think this is THE major misconception about outlines. An outline doesn't lock you into anything. YOU are writing the outline, YOU are allowed to rewrite it whenever you want if you have a more interesting idea. You can outline before you start writing, but you can also outline or re-outline at any point during the first draft or after the whole first draft is complete.

Well, no, that's not completely true. People do allow themselves to get locked into the boxes they've written themselves into. It's human nature. I don't know how many times I've challenged the use of an irrelevant character trait given in the story--irrelevant to anything in the story--only to be told it was part of the writer's concept of the character from the beginning. Well, it wasn't used in the story, so the writer just let him/herself be locked into her/his preliminary charts.

 

[autoplot]

That's why I think experimenting with a sliding scale of outlining is a good idea. For some, locking down every last detail works. For others, a quick run-through of the plot highlights will suffice.

And for some, letting the story "surprise" them works -- for me that just ends with an unfinished story. I've learned that lesson the hard way.

Also, outlining something doesn't automatically mean you can never go back and revise your outline. In fact, you can and probably should change it several times before it's all over.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think this is THE major misconception about outlines. An outline doesn't lock you into anything. YOU are writing the outline, YOU are allowed to rewrite it whenever you want if you have a more interesting idea. You can outline before you start writing, but you can also outline or re-outline at any point during the first draft or after the whole first draft is complete.

Again, depends on the person, as Pilot says below you there are people who allow themselves to be locked in. They started with a concept, but if they can't adhere to it get frustrated or adhere to it to the point they are hurting themselves.

I think to be able to come up with and follow a good outline you need a mind that is both structured, but very creative.

My mind is pretty chaotic when I'm writing I seem to be able to pull it all together, but if I sat there and said, "Okay, here is my plot bunny, let's outline this thing" I would sit there staring off into space and nothing would come to me.

I write by the seat of my pants

 

[autoplot]

Taking out characters / elements that don't work is just a natural part of revision, it's not limited to outlining, in my view. But then, I imagine a lot of Literotica submissions are first drafts.

 

[sr71plt]

Again, depends on the person, as Pilot says below you there are people who allow themselves to be locked in. They started with a concept, but if they can't adhere to it get frustrated or adhere to it to the point they are hurting themselves.

I think to be able to come up with and follow a good outline you need a mind that is both structured, but very creative.

My mind is pretty chaotic when I'm writing I seem to be able to pull it all together, but if I sat there and said, "Okay, here is my plot bunny, let's outline this thing" I would sit there staring off into space and nothing would come to me.

I write by the seat of my pants

I think to draft coherently without an outline requires a mind that is both structured and creative. The finished product can always be polished later.

 

[Noira]

As a former pantser, who preached 'just go with the flow', yes, yes, there is some method to the madness. If you're having trouble with character arcs, if you're finding you get lost in the middle and don't remember where you were going, if you can never finish a story--try an outline. If you didn't know me before, let me stress: I was very far off on the pantsing side. I never outlined. I hated them. I thought they were creative stifling, and kept stories from evolving their natural ways... I know better now.

The thing is, outlines aren't one size fits all. Your outline might be three paragraphs on a napkin, or it might be 57 pages in Scrivener with individual index card notes.

Outlines aren't a locked box. You write the outline, you shape the outline to your needs, you can edit the outline as you go along.

What they do, is, they save you from the dreaded middle. That flow of the story that just keeps coming? When you're writing a novel, you can't write it in a day. It flows faster than I can capture, unless I outline it. I found myself never finishing things, and when I did, I felt like the endings came abruptly, without loving care. My characters didn't evolve because of how quickly I wrote to jot down what happened. My writing became stagnant. I stopped writing.

Then... one day. I knew I had to do it. I had to try an outline. I had a story, I had no time, I desperately wanted to capture the story before I lost it. So I sat down and wrote three squares, the first, second, and third act, and roughly what I wanted the main character to have attained by these points. Act one. He gets in trouble, saves the girl only to find out she doesn't want to be saved, something goes wrong, they run. So on, so forth. The outline was nothing more than a few pages. I wanted him to start out as an evasive person, hiding from his past, and to grow confident enough to deal with the challenges his past left for him, and by the end, to claim them and then use the past to overcome the climax of the new story. I didn't know that it would turn out to be that his sister hadn't died, but gone to live with the villain and embraced the villain's methods. There were many things I didn't know. But I knew that when I got stuck, I could look at what the aim of my act was.

It was freeing, and the story was the best story I'd ever written, and I finished it too.

I think many pantsers get caught up thinking it's the only 'true' way of writing and we forget that the outline is ours, the outline is not a box but a map, and we can deviate from the map and go see that monument in the park over there, we can remap an entirely new route, and if our characters say, actually, we don't want to go to Texas but California instead, we can listen.

I used to believe that if I outlined, I would lose the thrill of the hunt. Instead, it lets me put the hunt on paper, and then enjoy the thrill of finding the perfect word, the perfect way of telling the story, and know that if I get so caught up in this moment that hours slip by and I've forgotten entirely what my goal was... I can look at the outline again and remember what I was shooting for. The story still surprises me. And at the end, I come out with a better story, full of surprises, but a decent character arc and a structured plot.

Now, I'm talking novels here. For short stories, my outline would be 'They have trouble getting past some traps, and at the end they find the treasure.' Little more than a paragraph. Different ballpark.

There is a method to the madness, and much like writing, it's something you must tailor to yourself!

 

[lovecraft68]

I think to draft coherently without an outline requires a mind that is both structured and creative. The finished product can always be polished later.

MY take exactly. When the muse is singing and the fingers can't keep up with the mind, there is no need to think about anything, but the next word.

When you're done and your mind is no longer overheated then you can go through and clean it up so to speak.

 

[lovecraft68]

As a former pantser, who preached 'just go with the flow', yes, yes, there is some method to the madness. If you're having trouble with character arcs, if you're finding you get lost in the middle and don't remember where you were going, if you can never finish a story--try an outline. If you didn't know me before, let me stress: I was very far off on the pantsing side. I never outlined. I hated them. I thought they were creative stifling, and kept stories from evolving their natural ways... I know better now.

The thing is, outlines aren't one size fits all. Your outline might be three paragraphs on a napkin, or it might be 57 pages in Scrivener with individual index card notes.

Outlines aren't a locked box. You write the outline, you shape the outline to your needs, you can edit the outline as you go along.

What they do, is, they save you from the dreaded middle. That flow of the story that just keeps coming? When you're writing a novel, you can't write it in a day. It flows faster than I can capture, unless I outline it. I found myself never finishing things, and when I did, I felt like the endings came abruptly, without loving care. My characters didn't evolve because of how quickly I wrote to jot down what happened. My writing became stagnant. I stopped writing.

Then... one day. I knew I had to do it. I had to try an outline. I had a story, I had no time, I desperately wanted to capture the story before I lost it. So I sat down and wrote three squares, the first, second, and third act, and roughly what I wanted the main character to have attained by these points. Act one. He gets in trouble, saves the girl only to find out she doesn't want to be saved, something goes wrong, they run. So on, so forth. The outline was nothing more than a few pages. I wanted him to start out as an evasive person, hiding from his past, and to grow confident enough to deal with the challenges his past left for him, and by the end, to claim them and then use the past to overcome the climax of the new story. I didn't know that it would turn out to be that his sister hadn't died, but gone to live with the villain and embraced the villain's methods. There were many things I didn't know. But I knew that when I got stuck, I could look at what the aim of my act was.

It was freeing, and the story was the best story I'd ever written, and I finished it too.

I think many pantsers get caught up thinking it's the only 'true' way of writing and we forget that the outline is ours, the outline is not a box but a map, and we can deviate from the map and go see that monument in the park over there, we can remap an entirely new route, and if our characters say, actually, we don't want to go to Texas but California instead, we can listen.

I used to believe that if I outlined, I would lose the thrill of the hunt. Instead, it lets me put the hunt on paper, and then enjoy the thrill of finding the perfect word, the perfect way of telling the story, and know that if I get so caught up in this moment that hours slip by and I've forgotten entirely what my goal was... I can look at the outline again and remember what I was shooting for. The story still surprises me. And at the end, I come out with a better story, full of surprises, but a decent character arc and a structured plot.

Now, I'm talking novels here. For short stories, my outline would be 'They have trouble getting past some traps, and at the end they find the treasure.' Little more than a paragraph. Different ballpark.

There is a method to the madness, and much like writing, it's something you must tailor to yourself!

The only thing I do that is close to outlining is every night I go to bed before I'm tired enough to sleep. I lay there, close my eyes and drift and watch the story unfold and hear the characters speak.

I drift off and when I wake up before the alarm do the same thing, then I write what I "saw"

I also go by feel. When an image comes to me I sort of spin it through my mind a few times and see if it "feels" right. If it keeps scratching at me it is, if by the third time I have looked at it, it keeps getting more vague then it wasn't right.

 

[sr71plt]

If I had to agonize over the writing, I'd just do something else. Thank god I don't approach it like it's a chore to endure or a foe to conquer.

 

[lovecraft68]

If I had to agonize over the writing, I'd just do something else. Thank god I don't approach it like it's a chore to endure or a foe to conquer.

Sounds like when my father in law and my wife's step mother come to visit.

But yeah, I would agonize over an outline because I would be forcing myself to do it when all I want to do is write.

I have enough tedium with e-bay, writing is fun and for the most part relaxing.

 

[HeyAll]

I don't write outlines because my concepts are generally simple.

Also I agree with lovecraft of having a flow.

For an upcoming story, I was intending on having a long dialogue in the opening which sets up a blackmail scheme. The dialogue started flowing and when I finished, there was no blackmail and it wasn't needed. It flowed in another direction.

For me it's about figuring what the vibe of the story is, and what are the key plot points that need to happen. Then I just let it flow in a way that makes sense and how I like it.

 

[GradeACdnBeef]

I like Stephen Kings take on this. If you are in a state of freeflow your subconscious is taking you somewhere. Paint yourself into a box. You'll figure a way out. If you don't know exactly where you're going, you can't give it away to your reader.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Lets talk about psycho-babble.

People toss around words I know theyre clueless of the meanings. Like CONSCIOUS, SUBCONSCIOUS, UNCONSCIOUS etc.

Take notes.

CONSCIOUS: Awareness of whats floating thru your mind in the here & now.

SUBCONSCIOUS: Recollections you can access and summons on demand.

UNCONSCIOUS: Mental processes you cant access or summons on demand.


In terms of personality I differ from every other psychologist on the planet. I observe an EXECUTIVE mind and an ARCHAIC mind. Think of it as ADULT and CHILD.

 

[GradeACdnBeef]

Fair enough. Sometimes when I'm just posting in a thread I get sloppy. Especially if I'm posting in one started by you James.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Fair enough. Sometimes when I'm just posting in a thread I get sloppy. Especially if I'm posting in one started by you James.

Your comment tripped my trigger, but my response is aimed at everyone.

 

[GradeACdnBeef]

Your comment tripped my trigger, but my response is aimed at everyone.

Fair comment is fair comment. Have a good night.