How to get over

[infinity706]

Well, people that commit some offence are more likely to get caught doing it again, anyway. Of course, I'm not sure what the idea behind cheating = not in love is. It's certainly possible to love someone and still fuck other people. It's also quite common that people in love do dishonest things, too.

 

[fire_breeze]

I truly did not want to participate in this thread, but there are a few things that confuses me. I do not want to be seen as attacking, so please Fin, bear with me as I try to find a logical coherency to your arguments.

<snip> Quite a few people treat the slightest sexual dishonesty as the social equivilant to murder. It deserves a reasonable punishment. If someone borrows something and doesn't return it on time, everyone would think you're the crazy one if you grabbed it out of their hands and broke it over their head.

Slightest? May I ask what is a 'grievous' dishonesty?

I think I'm plenty empahthetic. I even earned the nickname, the marshmallow for being exceptionally forgiving.

Being empathic and forgiving are two completely different things. One is recognising, and to a certain extent, sharing the feelings of that is being experienced. The other is letting go of anger, resentment or indignation at a perceived offense, and not demanding retribution or punishment.

The two terms, although often correlated, are in fact mutually exclusive. You can be the most forgiving person in the world but have not one iota of empathy and vice versa.

Just thought I'd point that out.

I honestly don't care about traditional sexual mores, though. Tradition is nice, but if it's completely unreasonable, it should be reworked into something sensible. I'm not one of those extreme, ban religion fanatics. I'll stand there quietly while people do their prayer ceremonies and I don't really give a shit if people want to carry some religious book with them everywhere. If you're going to take some parts literally, though, you should follow all the rules, like chopping people's hands off for stealing or forcing women to become prostitutes if they get raped, not just the ones you like.

Where the hell are you getting the bolded part?

And remember, Fin, tradition and religions (and please note that there are over 8000 religions worldwide, and do not assume that all religions are Abrahamic in nature), are not the same thing. You're playing with dangerous elements, which I am sorry to say, you do not understand.

No one here is talking about religious fanatics - instead, they are asking you to defend your position on using an image that has obviously caused the OP severe pain. You may not agree with traditional, Western sexual mores. What does this have to do with the interpretations of various scriptures, religious radicals, and lex talionis?

And for argument's sake, who decides what is reasonable or not?

 

[infinity706]

I certainly don't feel attacked at all and I'm more than happy to answer criticism.

I truly did not want to participate in this thread, but there are a few things that confuses me. I do not want to be seen as attacking, so please Fin, bear with me as I try to find a logical coherency to your arguments.



Slightest? May I ask what is a 'grievous' dishonesty?

Generally, the punishment tends to scale based on the level of harm the crime is likely to cause. A little flirting and dirty talk isn't really putting anyone in danger. Now, you could make a better case when you get to things like, say, penetrative sex that could lead to STDs and pregnancy. Of course, it's not as big of a deal, nowdays, with testing, medical treatments, and birth control. I'd say grievous sexual dishonesty would probably be something like lying about paternity to get child support or knowingly exposing your partner to incurable diseases like herpes or hiv. (The incurable diseases thing might be a thing of the past, soon enough, if those cool, virus seeking drugs end up panning out, though.)

Being empathic and forgiving are two completely different things. One is recognising, and to a certain extent, sharing the feelings of that is being experienced. The other is letting go of anger, resentment or indignation at a perceived offense, and not demanding retribution or punishment.

The two terms, although often correlated, are in fact mutually exclusive. You can be the most forgiving person in the world but have not one iota of empathy and vice versa.

Just thought I'd point that out.

I do somewhat share the feelings being experienced. It's pretty annoying when someone goes out and fucks someone and then, lies about it, even knowing I said they could have sex with anyone they chose as long as they played safe. Sure, it's not a world shattering, soul crushing thing like some people describe, but I've never gotten quite that bent out of shape over anything, including the deaths of my grandparents.

Where the hell are you getting the bolded part?

And remember, Fin, tradition and religions (and please note that there are over 8000 religions worldwide, and do not assume that all religions are Abrahamic in nature), are not the same thing. You're playing with dangerous elements, which I am sorry to say, you do not understand.

No one here is talking about religious fanatics - instead, they are asking you to defend your position on using an image that has obviously caused the OP severe pain. You may not agree with traditional, Western sexual mores. What does this have to do with the interpretations of various scriptures, religious radicals, and lex talionis?

And for argument's sake, who decides what is reasonable or not?

The prostitute thing is in the old testament of the Bible. (I used to be a choir boy and won contests for memorising Bible verses, believe it or not) I don't remember exactly where, but it's around the part where it talks about how a woman's hair belongs to her husband and it would be a sin to cut it. That was kind of targeted at Ms Satin because I know she's a devout Christian.

As for the reasonable or not, I'd compare it to whatever punishment people would find fitting for some non sexual offence that's likely to cause similar harm. Is there, honestly, any reason sexual offences should carry greater punishment other than tradition?

Oh, and thanks for your time. I think you did a nice job of challenging things without making personal attacks.

 

[mystory2012]

......

 

[satindesire]

I don't remember exactly where, but it's around the part where it talks about how a woman's hair belongs to her husband and it would be a sin to cut it. That was kind of targeted at Ms Satin because I know she's a devout Christian.

My religion and your lack of religion has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion and I absolutely REFUSE to allow you to turn this into some kind of debate or discussion about said religion.

This is the subject:

It's not nice and empathic to suggest that she masturbate with her partner to the picture of the woman THAT HE CHEATED ON HER WITH.

It shows that you lack one ounce of empathy and good sense to even think that, not just to suggest it as something that "might be a good idea" to a person...a HUMAN BEING...that is suffering in anguish over the betrayal that her partner visited on her.

I know you love coming here and bringing a lot of attention to yourself by playing devil's advocate and most of the time I can just shake my head and roll my eyes and not take you seriously, but this is absolutely one of the most disturbing things I have EVER heard you say. EVER.

I know you don't fully realize not everyone feels the way you do about love, sex, loyalty and devotion, but you cannot tell people to do what you would do and think it's a-okay. It's not. The fact that you go on and bring my religion into this just shows that you're here to shock rather than help, and I absolutely will not participate in this becoming a talk about me being sooo wrong and close minded for being a devout Christian. This is about the OP, not me and NOT YOU and what YOU would do.

 

[fire_breeze]

Thank you for answering and clarifying some points. If you'd indulge me for a few more, I'd appreciate it, and then I'll just head off my merry way to the Playground

I certainly don't feel attacked at all and I'm more than happy to answer criticism.
Generally, the punishment tends to scale based on the level of harm the crime is likely to cause. A little flirting and dirty talk isn't really putting anyone in danger. Now, you could make a better case when you get to things like, say, penetrative sex that could lead to STDs and pregnancy. Of course, it's not as big of a deal, nowdays, with testing, medical treatments, and birth control. I'd say grievous sexual dishonesty would probably be something like lying about paternity to get child support or knowingly exposing your partner to incurable diseases like herpes or hiv. (The incurable diseases thing might be a thing of the past, soon enough, if those cool, virus seeking drugs end up panning out, though.)

I may be wrong, and I'm sure I will be corrected if I am off the mark, but I am certain that the issue that was brought up was not because of 'a little flirting' or even some dirty talk. The OP's partner cheated (and how is none of our business), and has the photos of the person on his phone. The point (and again, I might be completely wrong) was the fact that there was an abuse of trust. If for this couple, flirting and dirty talk was off-limits, then that would be cheating. Period. If between you and your partner off-limits (hypothetically speaking, as an example for argument's sake) was penetrative unprotected anal sex, and your partner does it without your knowledge, then that partner has breached your trust. The way is not important - the fact that trust was breached is.

While I see and understand what you mean about punishment scale, I think that the larger picture at hand is that trust was been broken. That, my dear, cannot measure on a punishment scale, and that is the issue. Not what the person did.

I do somewhat share the feelings being experienced. It's pretty annoying when someone goes out and fucks someone and then, lies about it, even knowing I said they could have sex with anyone they chose as long as they played safe. Sure, it's not a world shattering, soul crushing thing like some people describe, but I've never gotten quite that bent out of shape over anything, including the deaths of my grandparents.

Some points: what you call annoying, some would feel as being extremely hurtful. Again, not wanting to pick a fight, but would like to point that out. I know that there are somethings that I can accept and not be bothered with that a lot of people would be confused and bewildered with. Empathy is acknowledging and sympathising with the other person and what s/he is going through, in spite of my personal held views. Again, I just wanted to point that out.

You know, there are some philosophers who would say that if you have never been so hurt that you thought that the world would end, and you would never heal, then you are lying to yourself and have never truly lived freely, outside of the constraints that we have set ourselves. Just some food for thought.

The prostitute thing is in the old testament of the Bible. (I used to be a choir boy and won contests for memorising Bible verses, believe it or not) I don't remember exactly where, but it's around the part where it talks about how a woman's hair belongs to her husband and it would be a sin to cut it. That was kind of targeted at Ms Satin because I know she's a devout Christian.

What does being a devout Christian have anything to do with this? Furthermore, Satin is an exceptionally intelligent, sympathetic and insightful woman. Her religiosity is what completes her and adds to her wisdom. Just sayin'.

Furthermore, the verse that you were referring to, erroneously, I might add, is not the Hebrew Bible (aka the Old Testament), but rather the New Testament, more precisely I Corinthians 11:15.

What you may be referring to is Nazirite vow, which both men and women, who undertook this vow, do not cut their hair, consume alcohol and avoid human corpses for the duration of the vow. THEN it becomes a sin. But there's nothing in any laws that forbids hair cutting for people.

May I just simply clarify one thing about the Hebrew Bible, and even the New Testament? Nowhere is it said that if a girl/woman is raped that she must become a prostitute - there is a lot that was said about both subject matters, but none about one leading to the other. And please, trust me when I say that I probably know Biblical law, and Talmudic, Rabbinical AND early Christian interpretations of said laws, better than you.

Oh, and thanks for your time. I think you did a nice job of challenging things without making personal attacks.

Thank you

 

[infinity706]

My religion and your lack of religion has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion and I absolutely REFUSE to allow you to turn this into some kind of debate or discussion about said religion.

This is the subject:

It's not nice and empathic to suggest that she masturbate with her partner to the picture of the woman THAT HE CHEATED ON HER WITH.

It shows that you lack one ounce of empathy and good sense to even think that, not just to suggest it as something that "might be a good idea" to a person...a HUMAN BEING...that is suffering in anguish over the betrayal that her partner visited on her.

I know you love coming here and bringing a lot of attention to yourself by playing devil's advocate and most of the time I can just shake my head and roll my eyes and not take you seriously, but this is absolutely one of the most disturbing things I have EVER heard you say. EVER.

I know you don't fully realize not everyone feels the way you do about love, sex, loyalty and devotion, but you cannot tell people to do what you would do and think it's a-okay. It's not. The fact that you go on and bring my religion into this just shows that you're here to shock rather than help, and I absolutely will not participate in this becoming a talk about me being sooo wrong and close minded for being a devout Christian. This is about the OP, not me and NOT YOU and what YOU would do.

I never intended to turn it into a religious debate. I never intended to imply that you were closed minded, either. I just have to rattle the tiger's cage once in a while.

Now, as for what I said about the pictures, I thought the point of advice was to describe what you would do or have done that worked. That's exactly the kind of thing you and everyone else does, too. I just don't tend to do what a "normal" person would do in some cases.

I guess my other suggestion about dressing up as his fantasy girl for the night is ok, though, since no one's mentioned it after pages of discussion?

Thank you for answering and clarifying some points. If you'd indulge me for a few more, I'd appreciate it, and then I'll just head off my merry way to the Playground



I may be wrong, and I'm sure I will be corrected if I am off the mark, but I am certain that the issue that was brought up was not because of 'a little flirting' or even some dirty talk. The OP's partner cheated (and how is none of our business), and has the photos of the person on his phone. The point (and again, I might be completely wrong) was the fact that there was an abuse of trust. If for this couple, flirting and dirty talk was off-limits, then that would be cheating. Period. If between you and your partner off-limits (hypothetically speaking, as an example for argument's sake) was penetrative unprotected anal sex, and your partner does it without your knowledge, then that partner has breached your trust. The way is not important - the fact that trust was breached is.

Actually, you are off the mark there. According to the OP, the boyfriend may have cheated. "i cant [say] i was recently cheated on cause thats not for certain although I did find some naughty messages and pics from a girl in my bf's phone" That means the pictures and the dirty messages aren't actually cheating, themselves. The question was, how to be sure he won't go see her. I'd assume letting him masturbate to the pictures for a while and being his fantasy girl for the night should help knock off the excitement a bit.

While I see and understand what you mean about punishment scale, I think that the larger picture at hand is that trust was been broken. That, my dear, cannot measure on a punishment scale, and that is the issue. Not what the person did.

I agree with that.

Some points: what you call annoying, some would feel as being extremely hurtful. Again, not wanting to pick a fight, but would like to point that out. I know that there are somethings that I can accept and not be bothered with that a lot of people would be confused and bewildered with. Empathy is acknowledging and sympathising with the other person and what s/he is going through, in spite of my personal held views. Again, I just wanted to point that out.

You know, there are some philosophers who would say that if you have never been so hurt that you thought that the world would end, and you would never heal, then you are lying to yourself and have never truly lived freely, outside of the constraints that we have set ourselves. Just some food for thought.



What does being a devout Christian have anything to do with this? Furthermore, Satin is an exceptionally intelligent, sympathetic and insightful woman. Her religiosity is what completes her and adds to her wisdom. Just sayin'.

Oh, I totally agree. Ms Satin is a kind and brilliant woman. (she's also pretty hot, too ) The being religious isn't so much the issue. We just tend to get into at least one argument a month.

Furthermore, the verse that you were referring to, erroneously, I might add, is not the Hebrew Bible (aka the Old Testament), but rather the New Testament, more precisely I Corinthians 11:15.

What you may be referring to is Nazirite vow, which both men and women, who undertook this vow, do not cut their hair, consume alcohol and avoid human corpses for the duration of the vow. THEN it becomes a sin. But there's nothing in any laws that forbids hair cutting for people.

May I just simply clarify one thing about the Hebrew Bible, and even the New Testament? Nowhere is it said that if a girl/woman is raped that she must become a prostitute - there is a lot that was said about both subject matters, but none about one leading to the other. And please, trust me when I say that I probably know Biblical law, and Talmudic, Rabbinical AND early Christian interpretations of said laws, better than you.


Thank you

Well, I'm having trouble finding it, so I'll take your word for it, for now.

 

[bailadora]

Actually, you are off the mark there. According to the OP, the boyfriend may have cheated. "i cant [say] i was recently cheated on cause thats not for certain although I did find some naughty messages and pics from a girl in my bf's phone" That means the pictures and the dirty messages aren't actually cheating, themselves.

Let's look at that again, shall we:

i cant i was recently cheated on cause thats not for certain although I did find some naughty messages and pics from a girl in my bf's phone we live to gether and he claims he is sorry and it will never happen. But even though we have talked about it, how do i move on without thinking he is going to see her, or even someone new...was I not good enough what is it was he missing? It hurt real bad and i dont wanna tell him these thoughts are in my head, but they are eating me alive I cry all night.. and havent eaten in days. can anyone share stories? Send some light my way?

One need not be physically intimate with another to cheat. Her boyfriend may not have had bodily contact with the other woman, but the OP is clearly NOT ok with him having dirty pictures and messages of or from this woman. Whether YOU agree with it or not, in HER mind he cheated, if not physically, at least emotionally. And she is clearly devastated about it. To me, it reads that her trust in him is severely damaged if not broken. Given the OP's thread title (How to Get Over), her description of her emotional trauma, and Fire's excellent point regarding breach of trust, it baffles me as to how you refuse to see how your suggestion of letting him keep the pictures was and continues to be totally inappropriate and insensitive.

And although she definitely had concerns about him going to see him this other woman, the LARGER question is how does she regain trust in him, get over her emotional pain and move forward in the relationship (if possible).

Now, as for what I said about the pictures, I thought the point of advice was to describe what you would do or have done that worked.

To a certain extent, yes. But you also have to tailor your advice to what you know of the person and the situation at hand. If the advice offered is contrary to someone's values or belief system, then for them, it is about as useful as teats on a boar hog. At minimum, it's mildly annoying. And sometimes, when the situation is more serious, incredibly dismissive and hurtful. While I honestly don't think that was your intention, I think it's also pretty clear that the OP believes in a much stricter definition of cheating than you do. So in this case, the suggestion to let him keep the pictures is wildly inappropriate.

As for the other suggestions regarding exploring his fantasies, that is certainly something they could explore at a later date, IF he can regain her trust and IF she can get past her emotional pain. If the OP is anything like me (and from the context of her post, I think she is) - I can't have an intimate relationship with someone I don't trust.

 

[Kojote]

WTF? Seriously, Fin? I know you're a poly person and you have different perspectives than the monogomistically inclined folk, but that's a bit much to ask of someone. IF my husband were to ever cheat on me and IF we were ever able to reconcile, there is no way I'd want him to keep pictures of the woman with whom he cheated, much less masturbate to them.

I'm not naive enough to believe I'm the only woman he has or ever will look at much less fantasize about, but having pictures of the other woman around would always be a painful and glaring reminder of that break in faith.

Actually I find some truth in what he said.
It can work out the right way to erase the 'off-limits' out of 'looking closely'.
Or even out of 'wanking of' to some pictures.

In fact most man do it anyway. At least topictures in their heads.
But when she can somehow participate she has at least some control over the situation.
In the end it may be a simple and utterly physical fascination from his side without any interest to do more than just 'have a look'.

 

[fallenhera]

First of all I cant re-quote all the great posts on here too many of them. But this did break down to core issues and differences between humans. So are willing to accept cheating (in all forms) and some are not. I am not one to find it acceptable, I need... wait no I want my relationship to be fully open and honest, and I need to make sure I am investing all the time and devotion into the right person. Now this is not saying I am limited to him never looking at another woman nor watching porn. I am against this person being real... someone he can call up and get his follies off with I and I alone should be the ONLY woman he is with.. unless I was the one to invite another woman of MY choice into the bedroom in which has not yet happened with this man. nor does he know at some point when trust is completely earned that it was possible. I am getting over it and through it I have to allow myself to believe him that it is over and that it will not happen again. If i end up screwed again its my fault...but I could not turn off my feelings for him... and must try at least once to make it work. thanks for all your posts

 

[Kojote]

I do find your opinion and decision understandable and in fact really good.
What I wanted to say regarding your situation is, that it could be helpful for you and him to... talk about other women (and of course men, too) more openly than it is considered normal.
One thrill in fantasizing about other people is the ‘fantasy’ part. It almost doesn’t matter if the third person is real. It’s a mind game.
So just think about playing it with him instead of letting him play it alone (which he most likely will do anyway). It might distract him from the closest attractive females that could catch his attention (real threat for your relationship or not doesn’t matter here) and since attractive women appear to be something do you also like it could be some kind of great pastime for both of you.

I really hope this makes any sense to you…

 

[Cattypuss]

Infinity seems a nice guy who is in love with the lifestyle he's chosen for himself.

Fine.

But you know, Infinity, the way you consistently jump into threads started by the monogamously-inclined - by people who want the way they DO feel and operate understood and responded to - and just bang on about how you don't see the world like that and poly is marvellous... it's repetitive, tedious and - worse - really fucking insensitive in some cases (as in this case).

WE GET IT - you are poly, you love poly, you lack empathy to the degree that you think anyone who doesn't embrace poly is really, really misguided.

WE GET IT. You don't need to ride rough-shod over various OPs' feelings to prove the same point about yourself over and over.

This is a thread about the OP and her feelings, not about you and your lifestyle. And it's a thread about how she DOES feel, not about how someone with completely different values thinks she SHOULD feel.

Empathy is about imagining how Person X feels in Person X's shoes. It is NOT about imagining how YOU would feel in Person X's shoes.

 

[infinity706]

I'm not really trying to force people to change. I have found, though, that there's a lot of people out there in monogamous relationships, that are only in them because they've never been exposed to anyone in an open relationship and never considered whether it might be possible or even enjoyable.

It's kind of like homophobes. I've found that a significant number of them have never even met someone they knew was gay and were just doing what other people were doing. In that case, it can be a whole different thing when they meet someone that isn't straight and is, otherwise, just a normal person they'd probably be friends with.

Considering the fact that OPs almost never return to the thread, or if they do, they don't specifically comment on anything, I don't have any way of knowing anything besides a couple lines of text. It's also not really intended to be repetitive or tedious. In many cases, that's all we've seen or will see of the person. I know there's no way in hell I'd ever convert any of the regulars, but that's not my intention. If I have to take a bunch of shit from the How To regulars, but possibly help someone, that's acceptable enough.

I know it sounds silly, but what if someone was talking about bran flakes? Bran flakes are the best cereal, ever and nothing could ever be better. What if they didn't know frosted bran flakes existed, though? What all the regulars need to rememer is, we are the 1%. Kinky sex forum posters are probably in that top 1% of the best sexually educated people in the world. That can be a good thing, but it can also make people pretty fucking jaded. How in the hell are normal people going to ever get exposure to things they have no experience with if all the role models they have in the real world are hiding who they really are? There's a ton of GLBT or poly people out there, but it's only talked about in secret, with other likeminded people. Even many of the freaks out there are flatout lying to people and loudly proclaiming how straight and monogamous they are to the world.

I particularly have to pick on Ms Satin, though, for being the best example of acting like the majority of my GLBT and/or poly friends in the real world. Even being openly poly-capable on the internet, she still has to loudly proclaim the wonders of monogamy and make sexist, misleading statements when talking to new posters. Of course, I'd asssume there's probably a lot of lying involved in being pansexual, but hiding it from everyone she's not planning on having sex with, as well. That's not much different than all the gay bashing, family values politicians that get caught cheating, picking up prostitutes, visiting places that cater to GLBT people, etc. That's the same way I deal with my friends and special friends in the real world, too. Of course, I don't call them out publically, but I still will chew their ass over it and maybe ignore them for some length of time.

As for understanding how people feel, I've been there. Like I said earlier in the thread, I was the choir boy and I was a total homophobe back before I actually met gay people. I even dumped my first open relationship for cheating, so I've been there and done that. (I've always been poly, but I used to be less understanding of cheating)

 

[_Virginia_]

Lots of interesting perspectives in this thread.

You know what bothers me? The fact that you live with this man, cry all night and haven't eaten for days - and yet YOU were the one who had to initiate the discussion that there was a problem????? How on EARTH did he not notice that and show some concern for you?

Having only the limited details you've given, I'd say that at best, you have a guy who is completely clueless - at worst, you've got a guy who just doesn't care how you're feeling. He doesn't sound like a keeper to me.

 

[subwannabe]

I'm guessing you are fairly young. Often young people really don't understand what love is or what a good relationship is (of course they think they do). Women also have this fault that they think they can change a guy and another fault is they can be too forgiving (even though it eats them alive inside). Everyone has different expectations out of their relationships. Some just want a boyfriend or girlfriend. Some are looking for a long time partner. Some are considering marriage, kids, and a house with a swingset in the backyard. I'm not really sure what you are expecting right now but there is a huge chance that this behavior won't stop in your boyfriend and you have to decide where you are in your life and what you want. Don't think he is going to change and don't feel like you should forgive him and live with all the things going on inside your head. There are other fish in the ocean. Better fish.

 

[enigma3]

if this man wants to play like this........he needs to go. he really is letting you down. tell him to follow "his" lifestyle and say goodbye

 

[Eilan]

First of all I cant re-quote all the great posts on here too many of them. But this did break down to core issues and differences between humans. So are willing to accept cheating (in all forms) and some are not. I am not one to find it acceptable, I need... wait no I want my relationship to be fully open and honest, and I need to make sure I am investing all the time and devotion into the right person. Now this is not saying I am limited to him never looking at another woman nor watching porn. I am against this person being real... someone he can call up and get his follies off with I and I alone should be the ONLY woman he is with.. unless I was the one to invite another woman of MY choice into the bedroom in which has not yet happened with this man. nor does he know at some point when trust is completely earned that it was possible. I am getting over it and through it I have to allow myself to believe him that it is over and that it will not happen again. If i end up screwed again its my fault...but I could not turn off my feelings for him... and must try at least once to make it work. thanks for all your posts

You don't need to justify yourself to anyone on this thread. Good luck to you.

 

[DefiantOne]

He needs to get rid of the phone, stop using cell-phones (or just use older, no frills, non-internet / non-camera / non-text-capable model cell phones,) until you discuss it with each other and you both feel you're at the place in your lives that you feel ok as a couple about it.

In the meantime, He needs to use ~ONLY~ your family home's landline, apologize profusely to you for being an inconsiderate asshole, sit with you in the rocking chair and hold you jealously tight, hold your hand, look you right in the eye, and reassure you as often as necessary / possible that he still wants you and ~ONLY~ you.

And he MUST address the seriousness of your emotional & body issues (before and after the cheating incident.)

He MUST treat this situation as a MARRIAGE, not a Casual Booty-Call, as this deals with many intricate issues...a PARTNERSHIP. In a day and age of HIV, AIDS, and many other STI's. This man must see that he's with a prospective mother-of-his-child. Not a one night stand. He must realize how much you've invested or wanted to (now or someday).

Now that I'm thinking about it in-depth, you also need to invite "the other woman" someplace neutral to maturely discuss things about your relationship and how your guy has let you down and how you feel about her part in it. Then, sit and listen. Most reasonable people, if allowed to, when told just how serious things are...are willing to back-off and end things with an unfaithful partner, and (if) they're decent human beings -- look you in the eye and apologize sincerely to you for intruding, (if you're mature enough to let them speak their peace,) and then let the other woman get up and leave.

 

[bailadora]

Actually I find some truth in what he said.
It can work out the right way to erase the 'off-limits' out of 'looking closely'.
Or even out of 'wanking of' to some pictures.

In fact most man do it anyway. At least to pictures in their heads.
But when she can somehow participate she has at least some control over the situation. In the end it may be a simple and utterly physical fascination from his side without any interest to do more than just 'have a look'.

Where there is a strong and proven foundation of trust, sure. In absence of trust? Not a chance - at least for me.

My spouse and I both look at other people and surf the net for porn. We have even discussed people we know IRL who we would hypothetically like to have a one night stand with - if there was a way we could be assured it wouldn't have any negative impact on our relationship. On several occasions, I've cheerfully sent him off with friends for guys' night out at the strip clubs. Once, I even accompanied him to a club and ordered lap dances *for* him.

I'm able to go there because my husband has kept his word to me regarding the sexual boundaries we've agreed upon as a couple. And when there have been things he's wanted us to reconsider, he's been man enough to come to me and discuss it, rather than sneak around my back.

In the end, it's not a question of where people set their sexual boundaries because that's going to vary from relationship to relationship and the only ones who can declare them "right" or "wrong" are the ones involved. For me, it all boils down to this: prove to me that you can and will keep your word and you'll get more and more leeway. Break my trust and all bets are off. You are going to have to work your ass off to regain it - that's IF I decide to take you back at all.

To Hera: I'm with Eilan - you certainly don't have to justify yourself to anyone on this board. I wish you nothing but good luck and emotional healing.

 

[Kojote]

Where there is a strong and proven foundation of trust, sure. In absence of trust? Not a chance - at least for me.

I'm partially with you here.
Except for the 'building trust' thing.
Trust (for me) is something I give in advance. It's not something to be earned but something to be lost instead.
I'm fully aware that things will happen to damage the (at best) mutual trust. Either way.

But in my experience that's not the point. Since is is the beginning of a relationship when things are most often tricky it is that point when some trust is needed.
In my current relationship it needed about seven out of ten years for her to trust in the simple fact that will not fool around (which was a specific point of worry for her).
It was to no avail that I told her this simple fact from day one on. And it didn't matter that I was serious when I told her that I'd rather quit than hurt her this specific way.
An added difficulty was (for sure) that sexual exclusiveness in a relationship doesn't matter to me (i.e. I wouldn't care if she wanted to fool around and don't do it myself only for the one reason that I know how much it would hurt her).

The relationship really matured at the point when she finally accepted that. And curiously it got proven the day when I was close to quit for another woman. Without fooling around beforehand of course.
But that’s only me and here, right?

The funny thing is that I observed it in other people, too.
The more jealous somebody views the relationships of his/her partner with third parties the more guilt this partner seems to feel whenever an ‘impure’ thought pops up. And since these ‘impure’ thoughts normally come pretty often a feeling of guilt develops.
And if you feel guilty for only thinking ‘not the right things’ it can lead to the conclusion that you could as well do what you feel silently accused to do anyway.

Jealousy (which is for me the opposite of trust) can do this kind of destructive work.
The trick seems to be to confront the jealousy actively.

I find it a little difficult to explain that fully. The language thing again. But maybe that makes at least some sense and again maybe it helps somebody a bit.

 

[satindesire]

I particularly have to pick on Ms Satin, though, for being the best example of acting like the majority of my GLBT and/or poly friends in the real world. Even being openly poly-capable on the internet, she still has to loudly proclaim the wonders of monogamy and make sexist, misleading statements when talking to new posters. Of course, I'd asssume there's probably a lot of lying involved in being pansexual, but hiding it from everyone she's not planning on having sex with, as well. That's not much different than all the gay bashing, family values politicians that get caught cheating, picking up prostitutes, visiting places that cater to GLBT people, etc. That's the same way I deal with my friends and special friends in the real world, too. Of course, I don't call them out publically, but I still will chew their ass over it and maybe ignore them for some length of time.

I'm openly poly capable and I am poly, not just on the internet, Fin. I have both a husband and a girlfriend. I don't loudly proclaim the wonders of monogamy when it's not appropriate and called for, I merely support monogamy and monogamous people because I think when a person/people are monogamous and happily so, it's a beautiful thing. I equally support poly relationships when they're healthy and open, because I think that's a beautiful thing as well.

Unlike you, who seems to think anyone who is monogamous is "misguided" or "ignorant of anything more/better" even if the people who are monogamous are completely content to be so. I'd love to see some proof where I'm lying about being pansexual, or bashing anyone for healthy and openly consenting relationships. I'll openly bash anyone who cheats and feel completely comfortable doing it and that's it.

Since you seem to have so much of a problem with me, I'll just put you on ignore and be done with this farce. I'm tired of you constantly pulling my pigtails and running away, your incessant trolling of me has become tiresome and too repetitive to respond to anymore. You do it for attention, and the best way to stop the bullshit is to stop giving you the attention you crave. I hope you've enjoyed our last conversation.

 

[fallenhera]

He needs to get rid of the phone, stop using cell-phones (or just use older, no frills, non-internet / non-camera / non-text-capable model cell phones,) until you discuss it with each other and you both feel you're at the place in your lives that you feel ok as a couple about it.

In the meantime, He needs to use ~ONLY~ your family home's landline, apologize profusely to you for being an inconsiderate asshole, sit with you in the rocking chair and hold you jealously tight, hold your hand, look you right in the eye, and reassure you as often as necessary / possible that he still wants you and ~ONLY~ you.

And he MUST address the seriousness of your emotional & body issues (before and after the cheating incident.)

He MUST treat this situation as a MARRIAGE, not a Casual Booty-Call, as this deals with many intricate issues...a PARTNERSHIP. In a day and age of HIV, AIDS, and many other STI's. This man must see that he's with a prospective mother-of-his-child. Not a one night stand. He must realize how much you've invested or wanted to (now or someday).

Now that I'm thinking about it in-depth, you also need to invite "the other woman" someplace neutral to maturely discuss things about your relationship and how your guy has let you down and how you feel about her part in it. Then, sit and listen. Most reasonable people, if allowed to, when told just how serious things are...are willing to back-off and end things with an unfaithful partner, and (if) they're decent human beings -- look you in the eye and apologize sincerely to you for intruding, (if you're mature enough to let them speak their peace,) and then let the other woman get up and leave.

on this I agree I do feel this is how to correct how I am feeling. This is what I would be doing if i had done something bad like this. as with this girl she knew he had someone.. she kjnew we lived together and have children (not together) and that we lived like a family... So me meeting her maturely will not happen She cannot step foot in front of me, greant it I have never fought nor hit anyone but this time I have gotten angry enough too, cause I am tired of it always happening. For those that cared to know my age its 30

 

[Kojote]

on this I agree I do feel this is how to correct how I am feeling. This is what I would be doing if i had done something bad like this. as with this girl she knew he had someone.. she kjnew we lived together and have children (not together) and that we lived like a family... So me meeting her maturely will not happen She cannot step foot in front of me, greant it I have never fought nor hit anyone but this time I have gotten angry enough too, cause I am tired of it always happening. For those that cared to know my age its 30

Oh my...
C'mon Hera... For sure...
Getting rid of the phone is like banning every opportunity for misbehaviour. But the temptation doesn't stop to exist without the easy way to stumble over it.
And the whole 'apologetic cuddling' thing is nothing more than that. It's not constructive in any way.

How much apologies are sufficient? Won#t they all remind you on what has happened? And will your really reach a point where he has apologized enough and can stop to pamper you this way?
Or will you get used to it and think there's another lie in the vicinity when he stops being around you like a bee on the coffee table is around the cake?

The 'mature' way is to acknowledge that there has been done somthing against the appointed rules of your relationshp. For both of you.
Try to find out together how this happened and how to avoid any repetition of the event.

 

[bailadora]

The funny thing is that I observed it in other people, too. The more jealous somebody views the relationships of his/her partner with third parties the more guilt this partner seems to feel whenever an ‘impure’ thought pops up. And since these ‘impure’ thoughts normally come pretty often a feeling of guilt develops. And if you feel guilty for only thinking ‘not the right things’ it can lead to the conclusion that you could as well do what you feel silently accused to do anyway.

Jealousy (which is for me the opposite of trust) can do this kind of destructive work. The trick seems to be to confront the jealousy actively.

I find it a little difficult to explain that fully. The language thing again. But maybe that makes at least some sense and again maybe it helps somebody a bit.

Oh, I agree with you that jealousy is an ugly and destructive thing. But determining what level of that emotion is acceptable within any given relationship is subjective because our experiences are all different.

As I read your account of your relationship with your GF, I thought, "Wow, K sure has a lot of patience." I'm pretty sure I could not have put up that level of distrust for that long. By the same token, some people might look at my tolerance level and think "fuck that - no way I could ever live with that." And that's ok. The important thing is communication. Discuss what you are and are not willing to live with, tolerate or accept and set mutually agreed upon boundaries. Then KEEP your promise. If you know you aren't going to be able to meet the agreed upon expectation(s), DON'T agree to it (them) in the first place. Or, if you initially agree, but later decide it's just not working for you, then be honest enough to discuss it with your partner rather than sneak around doing something you know is going to damage their trust in you. It's called integrity.

How much apologies are sufficient?

I don't know if there is a German equivalent, but in English, there is a saying - "Actions speak louder than words." Meaning, what you SAY is not nearly as important as what you DO. If your actions don't support your words, then what is said holds little to no value. I suspect that's where the OP is at this point in time. It's not so much about the apologies, it's about what he actively does from here on out to regain her trust.

The 'mature' way is to acknowledge that there has been done somthing against the appointed rules of your relationshp. For both of you. Try to find out together how this happened and how to avoid any repetition of the event.

Oh, I'm sure it's abundantly clear that lines have been crossed. What's yet to be determined is exactly what he needs to do to repair the damage he has done and if he's willing to put in the effort. While I personally wouldn't demand he stop using a cell phone, I most certainly would insist he delete all prior communication with the other woman, delete all of her contact information and then block HER ability to contact HIM. I would also claim the right to randomly check his communications, without prior notice.

But hey, that's just me. It's not MY relationship. The only ones who can determine what constitutes "appropriate" measures are Hera and her boyfriend.

 

[infinity706]

I'm openly poly capable and I am poly, not just on the internet, Fin. I have both a husband and a girlfriend. I don't loudly proclaim the wonders of monogamy when it's not appropriate and called for, I merely support monogamy and monogamous people because I think when a person/people are monogamous and happily so, it's a beautiful thing. I equally support poly relationships when they're healthy and open, because I think that's a beautiful thing as well.

Unlike you, who seems to think anyone who is monogamous is "misguided" or "ignorant of anything more/better" even if the people who are monogamous are completely content to be so. I'd love to see some proof where I'm lying about being pansexual, or bashing anyone for healthy and openly consenting relationships. I'll openly bash anyone who cheats and feel completely comfortable doing it and that's it.

Since you seem to have so much of a problem with me, I'll just put you on ignore and be done with this farce. I'm tired of you constantly pulling my pigtails and running away, your incessant trolling of me has become tiresome and too repetitive to respond to anymore. You do it for attention, and the best way to stop the bullshit is to stop giving you the attention you crave. I hope you've enjoyed our last conversation.

Whatever. It'll be the last time until you feel the need to indulge that 1% topness a little and shout me down again.