How to get lesbian sex right

[SimonDoom]

So, we've had a number of threads about gender A writing stories about characters based on gender B, and how to pull that off, and I'm curious (as a straight male), about what people think the to-dos and not-to-dos are about writing a lesbian sexual relationship.

What things start the attraction?

How does one seduce another?

My impression is that in most lesbian relationships involving my friends, there is a delineation of roles, with one playing more of a "male" role and one playing more of a "female" role. I've observed that in gay male relationships, too. Is that right or is that just an uninformed stereotype? I realize all stereotypes are at best rough approximations.

Any particularly egregious elements of sex to avoid so it doesn't come off as a dude writing about women?

Also, for fans of these stories, what are the things that make them most erotic to you?

 

[KeithD]

Why should there be limits on how lesbians do or should relate to anyone else, including other lesbians, or how this should be depicted in writing?

 

[stickygirl]

Oh Simon. If I didn't know you better I'd think you were peeking through the door for thrills.

There's such a lot to unpack here. I'm sure you don't want to write stereotypical bull dyke/dinky dyke even if you've made assumptions from observing gay men. Nor do you really believe there are roles and delineation 'Who goes on top?'

Does it matter if your lesbians stories are written by a man, through your gaze, if they are well written and have a broad appeal to both genders? Men are perfectly capable of writing lesbian erotica without causing offence. A virtuoso clarinet player may not be quite as good with a saxophone - it'll just be different. Difference should be celebrated.

To answer your specific How To's I'd suggest watching good lesbian films & reading books. Was Carol the dominant one in the partnership? Yes in the film, less so in the book, The Price of Salt. Is a younger woman automatically the submissive one? Why expect power play between women at all? Was there a dominant one in the film Portrait of a Young Woman on Fire?

What starts the attraction? You don't need to ask this question. Why do any people fall for each other?

Perhaps I'm responding from my own limited writing experience because I prefer a romantic timbre to a purely erotic one? ie. don't take my word for it. If I'm not bawling my eyes out at some point in a story I feel short changed. I've read lesbian erotica, written by female authors (so far as I can tell), that is at times intensely sexual - I have an anthology of Alina Reyes right beside me that makes me feel dirty and uplifted on the same page.

My check list would include
- don't get into clothing unless it's relevant and you know what you're talking about
- if there is power, expect it to ebb and flow between them
- don't expect orgasms for both parties every time... don't expect orgasms at all but you're writing erotica so...
- focus on minutiae because they have emotional resonance to the characters and reader
- use all the senses

Well there's some, just my immediate thoughts but I look forward to reading others. I'm still learning, not because I'm a trans woman and need to perform, but because I'm only thirty and have so much more life to experience that I can bring to my writing.

 

[Winter_Fare]

I'm curious (as a straight male), about what people think the to-dos and not-to-dos are about writing a lesbian sexual relationship.

I can see why building a framework of rules appeals, and when you read through most erotic fiction it's unashamedly formulaic. After all, there are only so many ways to tell a story, no point reinventing the wheel.

What things start the attraction?

How does one seduce another?

Just like any fictional portrayal of a relationship, I'd say it depends on how you frame the characters. Chemistry is universal, but what attracts people to each other is an individual thing. Be true to the characters and relationships forge themselves.

My impression is that in most lesbian relationships involving my friends, there is a delineation of roles, with one playing more of a "male" role and one playing more of a "female" role. I've observed that in gay male relationships, too. Is that right or is that just an uninformed stereotype?

I'd say stereotype, but stereotypes happen for a reason. Hence:

I realize all stereotypes are at best rough approximations.

They have their uses. There's no harm if a story describes feminine or masculine tendancies between partners but I find it really off putting when characters are one dimensional.

The vanilla lesbian stories I come back to read again are the ones where authors have spent time giving me the chance to fall in love with the characters. Yes, plot is important too, but it's the quirks, their hopes and dreams, often their imperfections that make me "heart," and reread. The sex scenes themselves are important too, don't get me wrong. In lesbian fiction, scenes tend to jar if there is poor communication between partners, overfocus on penetrative sex, and a race to a single orgasm each then done. (Kitchen quickies aside ). The bedroom is sensual as well as sexual, and passion ebbs and flows in the scene.

 

[Winter_Fare]

Why should there be limits on how lesbians do or should relate to anyone else, including other lesbians, or how this should be depicted in writing?

I didn't get the impression he's looking to limit people's writing, just give people a hand up with some lesbian fiction 101

 

[lovecraft68]

I didn't get the impression he's looking to limit people's writing, just give people a hand up with some lesbian fiction 101

You're wasting your time. I've been here 12 years and anytime someone gives opinions and writing tips he uses this line. Then proceeds to tell the entire forum how to write because he's the only one qualified.

 

[lovecraft68]

Oh Simon. If I didn't know you better I'd think you were peeking through the door for thrills.

There's such a lot to unpack here. I'm sure you don't want to write stereotypical bull dyke/dinky dyke even if you've made assumptions from observing gay men. Nor do you really believe there are roles and delineation 'Who goes on top?'

Does it matter if your lesbians stories are written by a man, through your gaze, if they are well written and have a broad appeal to both genders? Men are perfectly capable of writing lesbian erotica without causing offence. A virtuoso clarinet player may not be quite as good with a saxophone - it'll just be different. Difference should be celebrated.

To answer your specific How To's I'd suggest watching good lesbian films & reading books. Was Carol the dominant one in the partnership? Yes in the film, less so in the book, The Price of Salt. Is a younger woman automatically the submissive one? Why expect power play between women at all? Was there a dominant one in the film Portrait of a Young Woman on Fire?

What starts the attraction? You don't need to ask this question. Why do any people fall for each other?

Perhaps I'm responding from my own limited writing experience because I prefer a romantic timbre to a purely erotic one? ie. don't take my word for it. If I'm not bawling my eyes out at some point in a story I feel short changed. I've read lesbian erotica, written by female authors (so far as I can tell), that is at times intensely sexual - I have an anthology of Alina Reyes right beside me that makes me feel dirty and uplifted on the same page.

My check list would include
- don't get into clothing unless it's relevant and you know what you're talking about
- if there is power, expect it to ebb and flow between them
- don't expect orgasms for both parties every time... don't expect orgasms at all but you're writing erotica so...
- focus on minutiae because they have emotional resonance to the characters and reader
- use all the senses

Well there's some, just my immediate thoughts but I look forward to reading others. I'm still learning, not because I'm a trans woman and need to perform, but because I'm only thirty and have so much more life to experience that I can bring to my writing.

I think there's guys here looking for a pervy peek, but Simon's not like that, he's just trying to get the right vibe down(pun intended? Probably)

Good tip on clothing, its my weak spot in any story written from a female POV. Even just looking at my wife when we got out and thinking, okay, how would I describe what she's wearing, doesn't help much, its like a blind spot.

My three lesbian stories have all been first times. Not intended, but maybe deep down my angle is if one woman isn't as experienced as the other, but has the desire and wants it satisfied it covers for my shortcomings trying to write a lesbian because the POV is always from that of the person whose first time it is.

I don't get into top/bottom although I feel in most cases if we're doing cougar/kitten the older woman would be more likely to take charge the same why an older woman would be the lead with a younger man(cue upset incels)

I am working on one the opposite way where the kitten is going to be the instigator and the more experienced lover as its another first time, and the other woman is older.

IN the end this is another topic that falls under, yes its worth getting some advice from people who have first hand experience in real life, or just been writing it for a long time and learned the hits and misses. But again...I always lean towards just writing and giving it your best shot and you learn and grow as time goes on.

My approach to anything I've ever done in life is the bull in the china closet, just plunging headlong into it and freestyling everything, and getting those hits and misses.

I will add that being this is erotica, I tend to expose myself as a guy because my characters are admittedly the lipstick lesbians you see in most porn, everyone is hot and feminine. But this is the same for all erotica I write, men, women, straight, gay...everyone's pretty because this is porn fantasy, not real life.

There's the line between helpful discussion and over thinking, and most of these threads start the former, and end the latter.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I would agree with a prevailing opinion here, that catching a real lesbian relationship shouldn't really be the point. We write fiction here, after all, so romanticizing and idealizing things, or even writing them in a completely surreal manner comes with the territory, kinda. I would dare to guess that even real lesbians, who can maybe see the unrealistic moments in your writing, prefer to read these romanticized versions. I am completely speculating there, of course.

If you wanted an opinion about what readers of Lesbian Sex category prefer, then I would say it is romance above everything else. Light domination, mostly verbal, some spanking and such things are also quite popular. In general, avoid more extreme kinks, especially rougher stuff. 'Gently' is the way to go in this category. That is my impression, at least.

 

[StrawberryHime]

Honestly, kink is completely tangental to writing lesbian erotica, I feel like. Just like how women fall for one another for all the same reasons a woman/man falls for a man/woman, women in kinky relationships can span from vanilla to "really hardcore" kink.

That is, I'd include as much kink in the story as you'd want/need to get the feel you want. If that's light spanking, then awesome. If it's I mean... I know people who'd get off on that too?

If your audience is queer women, then, in addition to what others have said, maybe remember that (for some people/women), arousal is more mental than physical, so maybe rather than fingering/strap ons, perhaps the one person likes gently bitten places or caressed in an atypically sensual place. (Like, maybe arms, inside elbows, etc...) Maybe it's the dirty talk that gets them off?

OTOH, if that's not your audience, they might be completely let down by that =)

 

[AWhoopsieDaisy]

Any particularly egregious elements of sex to avoid so it doesn't come off as a dude writing about women?

I wanna start this by saying that while I am a lesbian I'm pretty young and have PCOS which makes the actual sex having part of a relationship difficult or even painful.

I'm not very sensitive so I don't get much from being eaten out or eating others out.

Bras frequently stay on especially sports Bras. Bras keep shit from yanking real hard during physical activity and sex is a physical activity, I do not understand why straight girls take the bra off during sex.

My impression is that in most lesbian relationships involving my friends, there is a delineation of roles, with one playing more of a "male" role and one playing more of a "female" role. I've observed that in gay male relationships, too. Is that right or is that just an uninformed stereotype?

This is an uninformed stereotype. At least nowadays. A lot of straight people will seek to apply a heterosexual framework to understand queer households so it makes sense that you'd notice it more often. As a lesbian I very rarely see a Masc/Femme dynamic. It's actually way more common to get Butch/Butch, Dyke/Dyke, Femme/Femme because there is a little bit of a gender re evaluation that comes with being queer and finding someone with a similar gender experience to oneself is comforting in a way. I am a almost comical example as of all the lesbians I've dated none have identified as cis women. Three are vagina having nonbinary folk and the fourth is a trans woman.

How does one seduce another?

Its complicated. For those of us who grew up as girls and women it's very hard to initiate as culturally its not super acceptable for the girl to make the first move so we deal with a sort of blind spot there. It gets to the point where you either just straight up ask or make a move without asking that's very easy to pull away from, depending on the partner and their expectations for consent, yadda yadda.

What things start the attraction?

This is something a lot of people don't get: lesbians and straight men are not attracted to the same thing. There are exceptions and instances where there is overlap but in general we're dealing with the female gaze and subversive feminity. (Two terms you should definitely read up on.)

 

[Omenainen]

Yeah, try to get outside male gaze. I once read a lesbian story, written by a man, where the women were supposedly interested in each other but they were ogled by, and flashing for, a male taxi driver, because obviously sexy women don’t exist if a man isn’t looking at them… I rolled my eyes so hard I think I sprained something.

If you want my comments on your lesbian story, write one for my event and ask me to beta read. I’m not claiming to be any sort of authority on the issue, but my input is the only one I can volunteer.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

… in general we're dealing with the female gaze and subversive feminity. (Two terms you should definitely read up on.)

Old-school believer speaking.

The ‘female gaze’ is of course real and healthy and entirely understandable, for male vs female is the greatest divide we humans experience. What is the first question we ask when told somebody has just had a baby? And of course men and women look at the world differently, for the two are wired differently, even to the way our brains function. Not better or worse, but different. (And vive la difference!) So, yes, seeing things through different eyes is absolutely necessary.

I am much less impressed (happy with?) the concept of ‘subversive feminity’, if by which one is referring to a constant, hidden struggle against rôles thrust upon women. Especially in the context of happy erotica, I believe and have personally found (thanks, Boss!) that the individuals in a good relationship, regardless of their respective sexes, are not competitors or adversaries, but rather complements. In a strong, healthy relationship, neither has to subvert or break free from anything. Each accepts, each provides and both support. Certainly, one can include sexual inequality as a plot device or something, but especially in the terms of writing good, happy, enjoyable sex, it’s an anchor, not a sail.

And, if we are talking about why two individuals fall in love, why should it be any different for two women than a mixed couple? Eroticism is another thing, perhaps, but love is universal.

My two cents, anyway.

 

[SimonDoom]

Why should there be limits on how lesbians do or should relate to anyone else, including other lesbians, or how this should be depicted in writing?

It's not about limits, or sticking to stereotypes. I'm just fishing for ideas and thoughts people have. I realize people are people, and people of all orientations and identities come in infinite varieties. But even with a pretty good imagination, which I think I have, I'm sure there's a lot to learn about the way other people think about these things. My attitude is it's better to ask than not to ask.

 

[SimonDoom]

Oh Simon. If I didn't know you better I'd think you were peeking through the door for thrills.

You got me. I have a voyeuristic streak and this, absolutely, is part of it. And in this space, where we are sharing what turns us on and how to write about it, I think that's OK.

 

[AWhoopsieDaisy]

I am much less impressed (happy with?) the concept of ‘subversive feminity’, if by which one is referring to a constant, hidden struggle against rôles thrust upon women.

Subversive feminity isn't about struggle its about the nuance in fashion and behavior of women looking to impress other women. It sounds super political but it's really not. At least in this context. I googled it just now the results are surprisingly uhhhh incorrect. Like a few get on the right topic but don't use the term explicitly which in this instance is not helpful.

It's a sort of girl code, things people not living as a woman won't recognize as feminine, that other women will implicitly know to be a performance of feminity. However sometimes it is just something women find fun that men find annoying and doing as much of that as possible. It's a really complicated thing to explain and I am not doing a very good job.

 

[DarkRaven13]

This was actually a very interesting question ... and the responses were good I thought.

I can't speak from personal experience - yes, I have a few friends who are LGBTQ+ ... but that is the extent of my irl knowledge.

I will say that I have been thinking of writing something in this category at some point...so have been reading a few stories. What I have found is that the stories run the gamut of stereotypical ... to some that seem very real life, for what that is worth.

To me....and again, this is just my opinion, but the question of one partner having a more "male" role (or masculine role), and the other the more "female" (or feminine role) seems ... a bit odd to me. From the little I know, people are people, and can be attracted to one another for a myriad of reason. I think female/male personality is not quite right? Perhaps its more other traits ... their demeanor for instance ... their confidence level. Those kinds of things. Some of those traits are often attributed a "gender" so to speak ... but they really are just traits.

Just my tiny opinion...

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Subversive feminity isn't about struggle its about the nuance in fashion and behavior of women looking to impress other women. It sounds super political but it's really not. At least in this context. I googled it just now the results are surprisingly uhhhh incorrect. Like a few get on the right topic but don't use the term explicitly which in this instance is not helpful.

It's a sort of girl code, things people not living as a woman won't recognize as feminine, that other women will implicitly know to be a performance of feminity. However sometimes it is just something women find fun that men find annoying and doing as much of that as possible. It's a really complicated thing to explain and I am not doing a very good job.

First, I do get it. That perceptual, experiential gender gap is one which those one the other side cannot comprehend and those one one’s own side need not explain. As a huge example, no man can possibly truly understand the experience of childbirth, yet every mother from every culture anywhere, of every social class, shares that experience in fullness. The subtleties of behaviour and experience define us, I think. I takes a good author to capture those subtleties.

I suppose my objection to the term ‘subversive femininity’ - and you’re right, there are as many definitions for that as there are for, say, ‘feminism’ - is when it is used in a neo- or pseudo-Marxist way. Marx cast everything in the world and viewed everything in the world as resulting from a fierce struggle between the oppressive capitalists and the downtrodden proletariat. Wanting flowers in one’s table could be spun sociopolitically in some Marxist fashion, for good or ill. Subversive feminism, by one common usage, does the same with men and women. There’s just enough truth in it to be seductive, but it falls far from explaining so much very central to our species. As a major example, one very germane to this site and discussion, take Love. I believe that Love is very real, but it cannot be born of conflict between the two. It exists outside of conflict and any theory requiring conflict as a thesis fails.

Again, vive la difference!

 

[stickygirl]

Surely the aim of feminism, whether subversive or otherwise is to allow women to emerge from the yoke of patriarchy and encourage them to contribute and be the best version of themselves. That best version might be the best mother, the best soccer player or the best scientist. What men have sought to do since the cave is to mystify women into something subversive, that threatens their male power instead of seeing it as being something to strengthen it.

Power is the key. The OP made reference to the power play within a relationship, without acknowledging that in the bedroom, between women, there is rarely an expectation of such role play. Men seem to need that binary for clarity, so that each knows their role sub/dom to avoid conflict.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Surely the aim of feminism, whether subversive or otherwise is to allow women to emerge from the yoke of patriarchy and encourage them to contribute and be the best version of themselves.

The sad truth is that nobody really sticks to this idea. As a man who acknowledges the deep inequality between genders, which is much more present in the East than in the West, I usually cringe at the actions of local feminist groups... Things will stagnate for a long long time, unless those groups start being more rational and pragmatic.

 

[stickygirl]

The sad truth is that nobody really sticks to this idea. As a man who acknowledges the deep inequality between genders, which is much more present in the East than in the West, I usually cringe at the actions of local feminist groups... Things will stagnate for a long long time, unless those groups start being more rational and pragmatic.

No I disagree. I think you're picking on fringe groups and ideas to represent a wider majority. There will always be outliers in any situation but that should not be a cause for stalemate

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Takes deep breath, holds it, then, third eye open, releases it slowly…

I think the way out for us is to stop regarding The Other (and we all of us have so very many Others) as an opponent. Will Rogers once defined a stranger as a friend he had not yet had time to meet. With the exception of a short list (and we all have one of those, too), I’d rather see Xenos as somebody I haven’t yet had the opportunity to understand. Not that there are any of those right here, but hatred, shouting, distrust and labelling only produce more of same.

Sorry, didn’t mean to derail the thread. Something which matters to me at this time of year. I’ll be quiet now.

Peace.

 

[JuanaSalsa]

Its complicated. For those of us who grew up as girls and women it's very hard to initiate as culturally its not super acceptable for the girl to make the first move so we deal with a sort of blind spot there. It gets to the point where you either just straight up ask or make a move without asking that's very easy to pull away from, depending on the partner and their expectations for consent, yadda yadda.

This ^

I'm pan, not specifically lesbian, and I cannot believe how much intensely harder it is to get a relationship going with a woman than a man. First of all, men are so transparent. You can tell pretty quickly if he's interested or not if you meet in any context in which flirting is even marginally socially acceptable. Men, in my experience, are almost unable to hide their attraction. It's in the way they look at you, the quality of their touch, the words they use, the pauses in the conversation, everything. With a woman, I never have any clue if they are attracted to me or not. I mean, we could be talking about dating online, meet and talk about dating for a whole two hours, and I still don't know if she wants to date me. It's such a mystery. The more I'm doing it, the more I wonder how people only attracted to women ever get laid regularly. Women! Gah!

On the other hand, if you can get through the initial barriers a woman sets to the actual sex part, she will open her emotions to you fully, and it's so nice to be let in to know everything she thinks about everything. A man, though, he will fuck you multiple times and still not tell you how he actually feels. Men! Gah!

I'm not saying one way of communication is better, I obviously fucking love both men and women. Just, women are harder to read and harder to know what they want because they seem to have an aversion to telling you. Men, you know what they want, whether you want to know or not.

My experience with women totals at 4, while I've been with, uhm, a lot more guys - am not counting those anymore, I gave up keeping track. The big difference in dating between men and women, is communication with women is EVERYTHING! Men hate talking, women love it. Men pay attention to the way you move and sound and react, women ask for feedback. Is this too hard, too soft, too much, too little? Would you like this or that? What was your favorite part, least favorite? How are you feeling now? Constant communication. Men, on the other hand, tell you and wait for a positive or negative reaction (verbal or otherwise). I want to do this, I want to do that, I want more, I want to go harder, etc. It's kind of fascinating. Even subby men, they tell rather than ask. I want you to degrade me, I want you to use me, I want, I want...

As to the actual sex part, whether its with a man or a woman, I personally love focusing on my lover's experience, their body and pleasure, exploring their entire body with mouth and hands, and then letting them do whatever they feel like to me. I like being totally nude either way because I don't like anything in the way of the sensations. And, tbh, I like having my breasts hurt, pinched, suckled, and bit. I like doing so to other breasts too. I like exploring pussies with my tongue and fingers. I like the feeling of warm wet. I like seeing just how many fingers she can hold and watching her face and listening to her moans. I like marveling at how small her mouth and hands are, the tender feel of her hands, the comfort of her soft fat and mmm....

 

[ElectricBlue]

JuanaSalsa's reply above reads to me as definitive. If Simon reads this and takes it on board, he should be okay.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Ah, the old "why do bisexual women generally end up with men?" Because it's so much easier to know they're interested and they're then willing to do something about it!

There's the joke about lesbian sheep - ewes typically show receptiveness by just standing still and doing nothing. Women aren't much better. Which is why we need gossip, so your friends can tell X you're interested in her...

Juana's summary of communication is spot on for a lot of men vs women. Any reading on Ask Vs Guess cultures is relevant Though there's a lot of women where the inhibitions over asking for anything extend to in bed, just wanting near-silent touches and kisses and all for hours on end - or being too shy to go for more.

Kink culture can be very different - a SM Dykes meetup might have someone use a line like "I like your tits. Wanna fuck?" but a typical bunch of cute young lesbians would be horrified (and in the 80s and 90s, mutter about 'infection by the patriarchy'...)

Stories with same-sex couples tend to have physical differences, possibly just because they're lazily written. It's much more common for same-sex couples to look similar (look for pics online), though that doesn't necessarily mean anything about personality, and neither personality nor body type correlate much with sexual activity preferences.

But it depends who you're writing a story for. Short-haired butch women probably aren't what a male audience wants. Women nervous of sex, possibly having been victims of rape or sexual abuse, may be a large proportion of queer women but probably aren't anyone's fantasy. Lesbians prejudiced against bisexuals are still common but again, not an erotic feature.

What's attractive? Confidence, cheekiness, a dirty mind. A certain look out of the corner of her eye. A hint of cleavage, the shape of a stretchy skirt, hair getting tucked behind an ear. A raised eyebrow, eye contact, a challenging look. A woman of my acquaintance on the dancefloor, mouthing along to "I want to do bad things to you" while gazing into my eyes with her wicked knowing smile...

 

[Athalia]

So, we've had a number of threads about gender A writing stories about characters based on gender B, and how to pull that off, and I'm curious (as a straight male), about what people think the to-dos and not-to-dos are about writing a lesbian sexual relationship.

What things start the attraction?

How does one seduce another?

My impression is that in most lesbian relationships involving my friends, there is a delineation of roles, with one playing more of a "male" role and one playing more of a "female" role. I've observed that in gay male relationships, too. Is that right or is that just an uninformed stereotype? I realize all stereotypes are at best rough approximations.

Any particularly egregious elements of sex to avoid so it doesn't come off as a dude writing about women?

Also, for fans of these stories, what are the things that make them most erotic to you?

I think JuanaSalsa summed up the dynamics very well. My own experience is quite similar, in my lovemaking with men and women.

I can only add that, yes, some lesbian couples are dyke/femme, and some gay male couples have their counterparts. Some heterosexual unions have a dominant male, others a dominant female. And for other couples, gay or straight, there's no distinction at all. So you can write it however you like.

If you've read my stories, you may have discerned how lesbian relationships work in them. It's not that much different between heterosexual relationships, except that (as JuanaSalsa pointed out) men are more engaged in the sex act itself and are more easily seduced by a woman showing a bit of tit or leg, whereas women are more cautious about who they hook up with and more vocal in telling their partners what they're experiencing. Granted, my stories are fantasies, in which some things happen more quickly than they would in real life. But the emotional contact still has to be there.