How should electrical utilities be run?

[AlexBailey]

What would a competitive electrical utility grid look like? How would it work?


Electrical utility distribution companies have a monopoly in their service areas. The electricity is billed in kilowatthours delivered along their miles of wire and equipment to their customers' meters.

The distribution companies can deliver electricity from any source on their network, whether it is generated in their own facilities or by third party providers. It's logistically simple to allow customers to contract with individual or cooperative groups of power generators for negotiated prices. For example, customers can often contract to buy from renewable sources, or to prevent their payments from going to a source they do not support, such as coal or nuclear energy. It's a virtual market place, and once the power is put out on the grid it is like different sources of water filling the same tank -- all of the energy, whatever the source, is delivered over the same power lines.

The generation can be competitive, but the distribution is common. How could there be competitive distribution? It would not work to have different companies running their own separate lines through the same neighborhoods.

The distribution system has a monopoly and a lot of influence over what sources can connect to their grid. Unregulated, they have a strangle hold over providers and customers, and can set their prices however they decide. Corporations have a responsibility to shareholders to maximize profits. Without oversight there is no protection for customers nor equity for providers.

Who makes the rules? Who enforces safety protocols? Who determines pricing?

Can it be done without government intervention?

 

[phrodeau]

Cooperatives are popular in many areas, where customers are also shareholders. The main issue is electing competent and upright board members.

 

[PaxNurgle]

I can only speak to it from an engineering standpoint, and a maintenance standpoint.

The grid needs to have redundancy. To put it simply, think of the power grid as a series of loops rather than a series of branches. In the branch model, one transmission line goes down, everything downstream goes out of power. And you have a situation like California's forced blackouts where a windstorm 200 miles away forces the utility to shut down the grid serving San Francisco. On the series of loop models, one part of the grid can be off-line, but you can re-route the power around it. Which means multiple redundant transmission line routes, and multiple points of generation from a variety of sources- not just hydro, wind, solar, gas or coal, but all of them together.

A utility should own SOME of their own generation facilities but should be able to hook into other generation facilities and purchace power to augment their own power needs.

 

[CornusKousa]

How should electrical utilities be run?

However the people who have to live with them want. #LibertyFTW

What would a competitive electrical utility grid look like? How would it work?

I don't think you can have one, nature of a grid.

Energy independence is the next best step. More and more people are doing it or working towards it. Electric company can't fuck you if you don't let them.

Without oversight there is no protection for customers nor equity for providers.

You're right about consumer protection.

Equity for providers? LOL....so what, this isn't N. Korea if a provider fucking SUCKS I don't want them to have equity I want them to go out of business.

Who makes the rules?

Who enforces safety protocols?

Gubbmint.

Who determines pricing?

Depends on what kind of economy your government has set up. Back to the rules.

Can it be done without government intervention?

No.

 

[stickygirl]

*leaves thread* ima out back wi my therium reacter and gunship

 

[jaF0]

ALL utilities, electric, gas, water/sewer, etc. should be non-profit co-ops. Salary and benefit scales should be restricted by law. That formula would need to be worked out, but there would be nobody getting rich or richer. Those scales also need to be made public and displayed openly on their websites. I'm on a co-op and applied for a job with it. They would not tell me what the pay might be.

ALL funds taken in would go primarily to system maintenance and stabilization.

Rates should be set by law, and the various PSCs should not be political or utility cronies. Rates scales should also be adjustable based on income of the customers.

Telephone/communication/internet access should also be a utility under the above rules.

 

[Champakian]

The concept of a power grid is an outdated paradigm.
We now have the technology to make every home/business self-reliant.
I can take my home off the grid in a heartbeat with just a small investment.
In fact, I have considered it and am already prepared for minor outages of power.

So, how they should be run is not the question, but how we should wean ourselves from the grid...

 

[Biggs_Darklighter]

Get a couple long extension cords.
Visit the neighbors while they are sleeping.
Enjoy free electricity.

Life hacks are awesome.

 

[WillJ8787]

What would a competitive electrical utility grid look like? How would it work?


Electrical utility distribution companies have a monopoly in their service areas. The electricity is billed in kilowatthours delivered along their miles of wire and equipment to their customers' meters.

The distribution companies can deliver electricity from any source on their network, whether it is generated in their own facilities or by third party providers. It's logistically simple to allow customers to contract with individual or cooperative groups of power generators for negotiated prices. For example, customers can often contract to buy from renewable sources, or to prevent their payments from going to a source they do not support, such as coal or nuclear energy. It's a virtual market place, and once the power is put out on the grid it is like different sources of water filling the same tank -- all of the energy, whatever the source, is delivered over the same power lines.

The generation can be competitive, but the distribution is common. How could there be competitive distribution? It would not work to have different companies running their own separate lines through the same neighborhoods.

The distribution system has a monopoly and a lot of influence over what sources can connect to their grid. Unregulated, they have a strangle hold over providers and customers, and can set their prices however they decide. Corporations have a responsibility to shareholders to maximize profits. Without oversight there is no protection for customers nor equity for providers.

Who makes the rules? Who enforces safety protocols? Who determines pricing?

Can it be done without government intervention?

[Who makes the rules? Who enforces safety protocols? Who determines pricing?]

If you want a local, state, national energy system that works your going to absolutely need federal govt oversight. Since energy is tied both to national economic.sucxess and it is also a national security issue and we have 50 sovereign states which exist along side of a national federal govt only the federal govt can provide the proper oversight.

End users don't really care about this though, they came about affordable energy that is consistent. Meaning, the energy is always on without disruptions (like what happens around the world in places where individuals are on their own to negotiate with power providers.). I've been in places like this...it usually is a third world and banana republic type problem.

Energy is a basic human need as is healthcare and education, housing, food/water access...it isn't something one would want to be volatile either in pricing or delivery because volatility can cause huge secondary and tertiary crisis...i.e. Texas currently.

Deregulation often means two things when it comes to energy... volatility in pricing and huge profits for private owners with a disregard for the end user. Again, i.e. Texas.

Regulation ensures accountability.

 

[Champakian]

I have to wonder, if "national" government is consistent,
will it focus on an equitable and reliable distribution of energy
or will it focus its energies on where it can generate the most votes*?





* and campaign contributions...

 

[CornusKousa]

ALL utilities, electric, gas, water/sewer, etc. should be non-profit co-ops. Salary and benefit scales should be restricted by law. That formula would need to be worked out, but there would be nobody getting rich or richer. Those scales also need to be made public and displayed openly on their websites. I'm on a co-op and applied for a job with it. They would not tell me what the pay might be.

ALL funds taken in would go primarily to system maintenance and stabilization.

Rates should be set by law, and the various PSCs should not be political or utility cronies. Rates scales should also be adjustable based on income of the customers.

Telephone/communication/internet access should also be a utility under the above rules.

DA COMRADE!!!

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB11n4.XLLsK1Rjy0Fbq6xSEXXa5/KAFNIK-3-x-5-FT-90-150cm-60-90cm-Communism-Flag-Marx-Engels-Lenin-Stalin-CCCP.jpg_960x960.jpg

 

[CornusKousa]

[Who makes the rules? Who enforces safety protocols? Who determines pricing?]

If you want a local, state, national energy system that works your going to absolutely need federal govt oversight. Since energy is tied both to national economic.sucxess and it is also a national security issue and we have 50 sovereign states which exist along side of a national federal govt only the federal govt can provide the proper oversight.

What do you base that on???

Is only the EU capable of providing the proper oversight of German affairs? French??

Or are those states capable of managing their own affairs??

 

[WillJ8787]

What do you base that on???

Is only the EU capable of providing the proper oversight of German affairs? French??

Or are those states capable of managing their own affairs??

I think you bring up a good point.

Individual countries in Europe were absolutely capable and we're managing their own affairs prior to the EU. But, remember, they were independent countries with different currencies, languages and regulations. They also were all under national control and regulation of energy (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Now they are under another higher level of "Nationalised Regulation(EU). and I don't know how that affect internal energy production and regulation- unless exports and imports of energy occuring. Maybe some of our posters from Europe know how this works.

The States have already used a common currency and language so the issues of the E U don't seem to apply and some similarities do exist. The US energy grid seems to be an assortment of different systems, sometimes wholely within the State(Texas, Hawaii, maybe a few other) and sometimes regionally. Most of my energy comes from a regional.ptovider and locally we have some say over rates and regulations, the regional states here also have say over regulation regarding their particular state customers and we also have federal oversight.

The electric grid here is pretty reliable, affordable and while storms can produce local poweroutages (transmission line above ground) it does not last all the long.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

The concept of a power grid is an outdated paradigm.
We now have the technology to make every home/business self-reliant.
I can take my home off the grid in a heartbeat with just a small investment.
In fact, I have considered it and am already prepared for minor outages of power.

So, how they should be run is not the question, but how we should wean ourselves from the grid...

I rarely agree with you, but I agree on this one, as one who is off grid, and has been for over 14 years, it really is a very achievable.

Yet there are problems if the electrical distribution system was removed.

For industry etc, removing the grid is not so simple. Households use simple single phase power, with a 90 degree phase shift for 240V. Most large manufacturing has to use 3 phase power for efficiency.

Try running a sawmill on 120/240, or a paper mill ( think toilet paper here people, not news print), or a large steel fabrication plant, or a welding or machine shop.

Without that efficiency, the cost of manufacturing goes through the roof. Three phase local generation is also not efficient, either in energy production costs, or on a climatic cost scale.

So if we can't remove the grid for the large scale user, does that mean we should have all the small scale users disconnect? Doing so would drive up the cost of supporting the grid, which in turn then again drives up the cost of manufacturing goods.

 

[WillJ8787]

I have to wonder, if "national" government is consistent,
will it focus on an equitable and reliable distribution of energy
or will it focus its energies on where it can generate the most votes*?





* and campaign contributions...

This outcome definitely is a potential problem...it is why.somenasoects of life should not be political and/or be about who you know or who your support with $.

 

[RobDownSouth]

This outcome definitely is a potential problem...it is why.somenasoects of life should not be political and/or be about who you know or who your support with $.

Both of the America-hating half-breed half-wits here will use any crisis, however small, as a soapbox to promote their toxic political agendas.

 

[WillJ8787]

The concept of a power grid is an outdated paradigm.
We now have the technology to make every home/business self-reliant.
I can take my home off the grid in a heartbeat with just a small investment.
In fact, I have considered it and am already prepared for minor outages of power.

So, how they should be run is not the question, but how we should wean ourselves from the grid...

I agree with moving towards energy self reliance...while im not their yet a can go off the grid for short periods of time. Learning how to do this is well worth it.

I actually believe looking at the grid as a parallel system to be useful. Energy production/distribution to an end user can be changed to...

All end users also can generate energy and send their excess back into the grid. I would not discard the grid...end households and businesses can passively and maybe actively generate their own energy supply and contribute(sell off?) their excess energy back into the grid network.

 

[Champakian]

I rarely agree with you, but I agree on this one, as one who is off grid, and has been for over 14 years, it really is a very achievable.

Yet there are problems if the electrical distribution system was removed.

For industry etc, removing the grid is not so simple. Households use simple single phase power, with a 90 degree phase shift for 240V. Most large manufacturing has to use 3 phase power for efficiency.

Try running a sawmill on 120/240, or a paper mill ( think toilet paper here people, not news print), or a large steel fabrication plant, or a welding or machine shop.

Without that efficiency, the cost of manufacturing goes through the roof. Three phase local generation is also not efficient, either in energy production costs, or on a climatic cost scale.

So if we can't remove the grid for the large scale user, does that mean we should have all the small scale users disconnect? Doing so would drive up the cost of supporting the grid, which in turn then again drives up the cost of manufacturing goods.

Industry would then settle around an independent mass provider of energy
as it used to settle around areas of natural resources rather than transporting.

A lot of industry is already concentrated, it's a rare event to see an industrial site
erected in the middle of nowhere away from well-established infrastructure, housing
and workforce.

The military has developed small scale reactors which are not only safe,
but more than sufficient to supply power to a concentration of industrial output.

 

[Champakian]

Thorium Reactors - smaller and safer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium-based_nuclear_power

 

[Dribble]

Sounds like Green Technology...

 

[jaF0]

Thorium Reactors - smaller and safer

Damn you're a dumdum.

 

[Champakian]

Damn you're a dumdum.

Okay, are you capable of elucidating upon that comment in a rational manner?

A dumdum, to my knowledge is a type of doctored round that increases bodily damage upon impact.

 

[Champakian]

Sounds like Green Technology...

The Greens eschew reactors of any type.
Their sole goal is the reduction of energy use in the aggregate
and dreams of living on Walden's Pond...

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Industry would then settle around an independent mass provider of energy

Not going to happen, and you, given your supposed economic wherewithal should understand that.

Lets list a few thoughts in no regular order shooting that theory down:

If that were to occur, the land owners who had land around the large generators would be able to charge a small fortune in rent to each industry, knowing the industry has no where else to go. They would only rent or lease that land and charge the absolute max to each business, driving up the costs.


Small scale nuclear has the exact same issues as large scale nuclear, so regulations and safety would be identical to a large scale plant. So more expensive power costs if each company, or small group of 20 or so had to share in that cost instead of millions.

Do you think the military would even let people have access to a devise that can create materials for a dirty bomb? Never mind sell them off like common generators?


Sorry Spearechucker, this idea is DOA, bad even from you...

 

[jaF0]

The future may be cold fission if they can ever get it to work,.