How Far Would You Go?

[shewantsmore]

yes ive done that

 

[Justfantasies]

So would you like to share . . . the thought excites me. Say here or PM me!

 

[Justfantasies]

Going, going, bump

 

[londoner2]

For me i think it would have to be F

Excellent... You must let me know when you're next going on a business trip...

 

[jennylikes]

You are on a business trip and you meet someone you are attracted to. How far would you go/have you gone before you considered yourself cheating on your spouse of significant other?

A. Anything more than lunch is cheating
B. Dinner and some flirting is OK
C. A little messing around is fine, it’s just fun
D. Oral sex, but no actual fucking
E. Fucking, as long as you tell your partner afterwards
F. There’s no such thing as cheating

Although my current relationship doesn’t support this I once had a long term relationship where this sort of thing happened very regularly, on trips both business and otherwise. When we got together afterwards we would tell each other what had happened in the greatest of detail, with obvious results. I suppose the most daring was my sister seducing him (I wasn’t present), even though we had secretly pre-arranged it and told him so afterwards. He was delighted.

In general though, I managed more encounters than he did, but this proves nothing as it’s much easier for a woman to bed a man than vice versa. I once saw a documentary film about this very thing where the protagonist, a woman in her late twenties, had 100% success rate bedding men during her researches. Some of my other posts touch on this in more detail.

 

[Riles]

The option of dinner w/flirtations I see as likely my physical boundary line. But then the question is, was the dinner a business affair and the flirtation just came as a sidedish? That's happened many times. But if I went into it knowing there would be 'more' or worse, wanting more, then that steps me over a comfort zone. Flirtation happens on a daily basis, and can be nothing more than harmless fun - it's all about the intentions behind the words and looks.

Personally, I have the freedom to move further in a physical sense within my marriage without crossing lines, it's when emotions become involved that I feel I'm pushing the envelope.

 

[RyanBlack]

for me--anyone having lunch with me, or drinks or dinner etc---chances are Im going to spend time talking about my wife---how much, after 24 years I still lover her, how beautiful and smart and funny she is, about how she look frikkin HAWT in that wonderwoman outfit with the sexy red boots---and frankly in my experience---when my side of the conversation includes those types of things, the other stuff just never comes up. . . . but thats just me

 

[jennylikes]

You are on a business trip and you meet someone you are attracted to. How far would you go/have you gone before you considered yourself cheating on your spouse of significant other?

A. Anything more than lunch is cheating
B. Dinner and some flirting is OK
C. A little messing around is fine, it’s just fun
D. Oral sex, but no actual fucking
E. Fucking, as long as you tell your partner afterwards
F. There’s no such thing as cheating

Please forgive me if I’m taking questions A-F too seriously but I find this aspect of relationship very interesting and would like to know more. Also, there’s something lurking at the back of my mind which wants to look at the A-F criteria from a different perspective. For example, why stop at A, as a number of contributors to the thread have done, when it’s obvious you would like to go to F? What’s really stopping you? Comfort zone and cheating are sometimes mentioned here, but is this a valid reason for stopping at A? The following is just my thinking aloud so please forgive its lack of thoroughness and refinement.

I’d better start by saying that I love my partner, having many things in common we enjoy a very creative and productive relationship. The one thing that I find very difficult is that I need a lot more sex than he does - left to him, I’m not sure it would even happen. He once told me he felt oppressed by my sexuality.

Back to the questions though. If I were having a business lunch with someone I was sexually attracted to and thinking to myself ‘I’d rather we were in one of our hotel rooms screwing each others brains out’ then I be seriously asking myself what’s stopping me? It wouldn’t be to do with integrity or any such high mindlessness - any ‘integrity’ I was feeling in this situation would be nothing more than guilt dressed up to look like integrity. Personally, around sex I have little or no integrity because sex is such a fundamental instinct for me. Without sex (like food) we would all very soon be gone from this planet.

Sex starts in my brain. Unless I can be faithful in my brain (which for me is the most vital part of my anatomy, because if I didn’t have a brain I’d be a pile of bones and jelly on the floor) then I surely can’t claim that I’m being faithful. If I’m having sex with my partner but imagining I’m being screwed the way I like to be screwed by someone else, then am I being faithful?

Thus being ‘faithful’ because I don’t want to hurt my partner and/or because I’m feeling guilty and imagining the consequences of being found out, to me, doesn’t add up to anything resembling integrity or even being faithful. Some of you mention love. Of course it’s great if sex is accompanied by love, but it doesn’t have to be, sex is too basic a requirement for love to always have to be present.

I know myself well enough to realise that given the ‘right’ circumstances I would end up screwing my business colleague straight after lunch - at present it’s only thinking that my partner would see it in my face when I got home that stops me. Thus does ‘A’ have any more integrity (or whatever you want to call it) than ‘F’ when the decision not to screw someone other than your partner is based on guilt?

Some of your replies mention that you don’t want to ‘cheat’ - is not ‘cheating’ just a metaphor for guilt, and that guilt is too uncomfortable a feeling to live with? Besides that, why would you need to make a conscious decision not to cheat if your primary relationship is satisfactory in the first place. I would guess that a large proportion of ‘attached’ Lit members are on here without their partners knowledge - I am!

Forgive me if I’m being too serious and spoiling the fun!

 

[rycat25]

No need for forgivness

You are on a business trip and you meet someone you are attracted to. How far would you go/have you gone before you considered yourself cheating on your spouse of significant other?

A. Anything more than lunch is cheating
B. Dinner and some flirting is OK
C. A little messing around is fine, it’s just fun
D. Oral sex, but no actual fucking
E. Fucking, as long as you tell your partner afterwards
F. There’s no such thing as cheating



Forgive me if I’m being too serious and spoiling the fun!

No need for forgiveness you have legit questions.

I've gone to B many many times. Have I wanted to go to F? Yep....many many times...lol.

What has stopped me? Oh it's probably my conscious or my upbringing and it could be just my plain ignorance. I've left dinners thinking "hmm was I just hit on"?

But mainly what has stopped me is boundaries. Not mine so much but theirs especially if it is a business function. It would not be cool if I crossed over the line and it wasn't received well.

I don't think fantasizing about someone else even while making love to my partner is cheating. Hell if it enhances what we are doing all the better and it goes both ways. Not all people think that way though.

The mind is a wonderfully complicated thing.

 

[RyanBlack]

You are on a business trip and you meet someone you are attracted to. How far would you go/have you gone before you considered yourself cheating on your spouse of significant other?

A. Anything more than lunch is cheating
B. Dinner and some flirting is OK
C. A little messing around is fine, it’s just fun
D. Oral sex, but no actual fucking
E. Fucking, as long as you tell your partner afterwards
F. There’s no such thing as cheating

Please forgive me if I’m taking questions A-F too seriously but I find this aspect of relationship very interesting and would like to know more.

Also, there’s something lurking at the back of my mind which wants to look at the A-F criteria from a different perspective. For example, why stop at A, as a number of contributors to the thread have done, when it’s obvious you would like to go to F? What’s really stopping you? Comfort zone and cheating are sometimes mentioned here, but is this a valid reason for stopping at A? The following is just my thinking aloud so please forgive its lack of thoroughness and refinement.

I’d better start by saying that I love my partner, having many things in common we enjoy a very creative and productive relationship. The one thing that I find very difficult is that I need a lot more sex than he does - left to him, I’m not sure it would even happen. He once told me he felt oppressed by my sexuality.

Back to the questions though. If I were having a business lunch with someone I was sexually attracted to and thinking to myself ‘I’d rather we were in one of our hotel rooms screwing each others brains out’ then I be seriously asking myself what’s stopping me? It wouldn’t be to do with integrity or any such high mindlessness - any ‘integrity’ I was feeling in this situation would be nothing more than guilt dressed up to look like integrity. Personally, around sex I have little or no integrity because sex is such a fundamental instinct for me. Without sex (like food) we would all very soon be gone from this planet.

Sex starts in my brain. Unless I can be faithful in my brain (which for me is the most vital part of my anatomy, because if I didn’t have a brain I’d be a pile of bones and jelly on the floor) then I surely can’t claim that I’m being faithful. If I’m having sex with my partner but imagining I’m being screwed the way I like to be screwed by someone else, then am I being faithful?

The answer to that question would best be posed to your partner of course.

The unilateral withholding of sex from a partner is as serious a breach of relationship rules as is cheating (see below). Outside of medical issues or psychological factors for which therapeutic assistace should be sought, the human body is capable of performing sexually every day of the year. It is as integral a component of an intimate relationship as emotional, mental and spiritual contact. Limiting sexual intimacy without purposeful agreement by partners is as destructive to a realationship as infidelity.

Thus being ‘faithful’ because I don’t want to hurt my partner and/or because I’m feeling guilty and imagining the consequences of being found out, to me, doesn’t add up to anything resembling integrity or even being faithful. Some of you mention love. Of course it’s great if sex is accompanied by love, but it doesn’t have to be, sex is too basic a requirement for love to always have to be present.

I am not sure I could hold up to the perfect standard of integrity you propose. Could anyone truly say they have NEVER had a stray thought, or guilty fantasy? I doubt that anyone could honestly hold to that perfect standard of integrity--however--remaining faithful in the face of such instinctive impulses is what differentiates us from most animals--we are not breeders of convenience--and sex is designed to be as pleasurable and satisfying as it is designed to be healthy and intimate bonding.

I know myself well enough to realise that given the ‘right’ circumstances I would end up screwing my business colleague straight after lunch - at present it’s only thinking that my partner would see it in my face when I got home that stops me. Thus does ‘A’ have any more integrity (or whatever you want to call it) than ‘F’ when the decision not to screw someone other than your partner is based on guilt?

Experiencing a thought, or fantasy is NOT the same thing as engaging in an action. You cite your brain as your largest sex organ. The brain experiences thoughts, memories, associations, desires and sensations in microseconds--experiencing the thought of stealing a bicycle is NOT the same thing as pondering, planning, dwelling on the thougth nor is it the same as acting on an impulse to steal a bicycle.

As to the 'right' circumstances, what does that involve if not the planning of what those circumstances might be which would enable you to "cheat" and justify it as the inabiltiy to control your impulses in advance, which precludes it being impulsive at all, but instead becomes a pre meditated act.

The human brain is capable of rational thought as well as experiencing instinctive drives---the question is which is in control of our actions.

Some of your replies mention that you don’t want to ‘cheat’ - is not ‘cheating’ just a metaphor for guilt, and that guilt is too uncomfortable a feeling to live with? Besides that, why would you need to make a conscious decision not to cheat if your primary relationship is satisfactory in the first place. I would guess that a large proportion of ‘attached’ Lit members are on here without their partners knowledge - I am!

Cheat is not a metaphor for guilt. Cheating is active breaking of relationship rules--if you are in an open relationship in which each partner has agreed to rules which permit unlimited sexual encounters with outsiders that of course would preclude the possibility of cheating being a factor. This circumstance however, requires clear discussions between partners on the boundries of the behaviors each partner can or can not engage in with respect to sex.

Guilt is an emotional response (non sociopathic)humans experience in response to stimulus in which they experience the feeling of failure. Guilt can be a valid or invalid response to conditions or circumstances. One might experience guilt in response to achieving a poor grade on a test in school. If you had studies and performed to the best of your ability, guilt is an invalid response to the circumstances because you performed to the best of your ability. Experiencing guilt in response to cheating on the test to get a higher grade would be a valid response because it would be under circumstances where you broke the rules of taking the test and failed to perform to the best of your ability.
The next component would necessarily involve discerning if cheating in a relationship violates a couples relationship rules (simply asking both partners should give sufficient answer)--if so, then the ability to comply with those rules of "faithfulness" becomes a simple question of performing to the best of ones ability to comply with those rules.

Finally, being on lit without a partners knowledge begs the question, "why is it something you hide?" If not guilt, or fear of confrontation for cheating, then why is it a secret? For the record, I do not keep my participation here a secret from my partner because it is the kind of thing my partner would want to know about--even if they arent interested in participating. Honesty builds relationship strength and intimacy and secrets and deception are harmful to trust and closeness between partners.

Forgive me if I’m being too serious and spoiling the fun​

!

Being Serious is not the same thing as spoiling the fun I do find it interesting that you feel guilt--hence the apology for what you consider being too serious in a thread on an adult erotica site, but your position regarding "cheating" seems to indicate that no apology would be necessary for responding to a basic instinct which might leave your partner feeling betrayed, unloved or at worst, could lead to the disollution of your relationship.

 

[mickyp123]

B is ok in my books, it's fun and should remain harmless, likewise if my other half did that it would not make me feel insecure or worry me.

 

[ucleebo]

B, maybe. Anything else would be cheating. Not to say I couldn't be sorely tempted - or even that I would never succumb to temptation. You just never can say for sure, can you?

 

[YourDreamGirl]

You are on a business trip and you meet someone you are attracted to. How far would you go/have you gone before you considered yourself cheating on your spouse of significant other?

A. Anything more than lunch is cheating
B. Dinner and some flirting is OK
C. A little messing around is fine, it’s just fun
D. Oral sex, but no actual fucking
E. Fucking, as long as you tell your partner afterwards
F. There’s no such thing as cheating

Honestly, I would try to stop at (A) but most likely it'll be (B)

 

[jennylikes]

Text in bold italics represent my answers to Ryan Black's reply to my last post.

Originally Posted by jennylikes
You are on a business trip and you meet someone you are attracted to. How far would you go/have you gone before you considered yourself cheating on your spouse of significant other?

A. Anything more than lunch is cheating
B. Dinner and some flirting is OK
C. A little messing around is fine, it’s just fun
D. Oral sex, but no actual fucking
E. Fucking, as long as you tell your partner afterwards
F. There’s no such thing as cheating

Please forgive me if I’m taking questions A-F too seriously but I find this aspect of relationship very interesting and would like to know more.

Also, there’s something lurking at the back of my mind which wants to look at the A-F criteria from a different perspective. For example, why stop at A, as a number of contributors to the thread have done, when it’s obvious you would like to go to F? What’s really stopping you? Comfort zone and cheating are sometimes mentioned here, but is this a valid reason for stopping at A? The following is just my thinking aloud so please forgive its lack of thoroughness and refinement.

I’d better start by saying that I love my partner, having many things in common we enjoy a very creative and productive relationship. The one thing that I find very difficult is that I need a lot more sex than he does - left to him, I’m not sure it would even happen. He once told me he felt oppressed by my sexuality.

Back to the questions though. If I were having a business lunch with someone I was sexually attracted to and thinking to myself ‘I’d rather we were in one of our hotel rooms screwing each others brains out’ then I be seriously asking myself what’s stopping me? It wouldn’t be to do with integrity or any such high mindlessness - any ‘integrity’ I was feeling in this situation would be nothing more than guilt dressed up to look like integrity. Personally, around sex I have little or no integrity because sex is such a fundamental instinct for me. Without sex (like food) we would all very soon be gone from this planet.

Sex starts in my brain. Unless I can be faithful in my brain (which for me is the most vital part of my anatomy, because if I didn’t have a brain I’d be a pile of bones and jelly on the floor) then I surely can’t claim that I’m being faithful. If I’m having sex with my partner but imagining I’m being screwed the way I like to be screwed by someone else, then am I being faithful?

The answer to that question would best be posed to your partner of course.

I don’t think he would appreciate me asking this question as he would know that it was loaded.

The unilateral withholding of sex from a partner is as serious a breach of relationship rules as is cheating (see below). Outside of medical issues or psychological factors for which therapeutic assistace should be sought, the human body is capable of performing sexually every day of the year. It is as integral a component of an intimate relationship as emotional, mental and spiritual contact. Limiting sexual intimacy without purposeful agreement by partners is as destructive to a relationship as infidelity.

Let me say here that I think my sexuality is unusually strong compared to what I intuit from reading peoples' accounts on Lit. Thus trying to answer A-F may just not work in the circumstances as I’m probably what you would describe as being addicted to sex. To give you some idea, I became sexually rampant from a very early age and my sex drive hasn’t changed much since then, the controlling factor has become the availability of suitable sexual partners. At one stage the more sex I had, the more I wanted. I once had five sexually active partners on the go and was indulging in sex several times a day, sometimes spending whole weekends in bed with one or two of my more athletic partners, in addition to my then husband. Realising I was in a position to take this even further I decided I didn’t want to explore the consequences of doing so, and thus turned back. The availability of endless sexual partners was due to my situation (I worked in a private adult residential college - it looked so respectable from the outside!) which I decided to leave for a career change.

Thus expecting any full time partner to live up to my sexual needs is surely unrealistic and that I’m doomed to experience sexual frustration most of the time. As long as I bury myself in creative work the energy is diverted and well used, it’s when this isn’t possible the problem rears its head. The only man I had a relationship with who needed as much sex as me was just not partner material and it ended after a few months. I’d be interested to hear if you though my addiction made my trying to answer the A-F questions inappropriate.

Thus being ‘faithful’ because I don’t want to hurt my partner and/or because I’m feeling guilty and imagining the consequences of being found out, to me, doesn’t add up to anything resembling integrity or even being faithful. Some of you mention love. Of course it’s great if sex is accompanied by love, but it doesn’t have to be, sex is too basic a requirement for love to always have to be present.

I am not sure I could hold up to the perfect standard of integrity you propose. Could anyone truly say they have NEVER had a stray thought, or guilty fantasy? Not sure what you mean by guilty fantasy. I doubt that anyone could honestly hold to that perfect standard of integrity--however--remaining faithful in the face of such instinctive impulses is what differentiates us from most animals--we are not breeders of convenience--and sex is designed to be as pleasurable and satisfying as it is designed to be healthy and intimate bonding.

Surely we have evolved sex to suite our needs rather than “sex being designed” as if it had been conveniently given us by some esoteric being

I know myself well enough to realise that given the ‘right’ circumstances I would end up screwing my business colleague straight after lunch - at present it’s only thinking that my partner would see it in my face when I got home that stops me. Thus does ‘A’ have any more integrity (or whatever you want to call it) than ‘F’ when the decision not to screw someone other than your partner is based on guilt?

Experiencing a thought, or fantasy is NOT the same thing as engaging in an action. You cite your brain as your largest sex organ. The brain experiences thoughts, memories, associations, desires and sensations in microseconds--experiencing the thought of stealing a bicycle is NOT the same thing as pondering, planning, dwelling on the thought nor is it the same as acting on an impulse to steal a bicycle.

These days I might not act so much on impulse but I sometimes get very, very close - but I certainly DO ponder, plan and dwell upon how to go about getting myself laid! That my plans fail is mainly due to not wanting to have to face my partner knowing I’ve just thoroughly enjoyed fucking someone - I don’t think I’m trying to avoid being a cheat, it’s simply guilt that deters me

As to the ‘right’ circumstances, what does that involve if not the planning of what those circumstances might be which would enable you to “cheat” and justify it as the inability to control your impulses in advance, which precludes it being impulsive at all, but instead becomes a pre meditated act. The human brain is capable of rational thought as well as experiencing instinctive drives---the question is which is in control of our actions.

Surely each in their place and time. I sometimes want to let go and be completely out of control - taken over by the ecstasy of sexual feelings and orgasms. I sometimes just can’t stand being what Culture would like me to be , a ‘good’ person, and I need to feel the delightful energy of being really, really ‘bad’. The status quo doesn’t suit me and never will

Some of your replies mention that you don’t want to ‘cheat’ - is not ‘cheating’ just a metaphor for guilt, and that guilt is too uncomfortable a feeling to live with? Besides that, why would you need to make a conscious decision not to cheat if your primary relationship is satisfactory in the first place. I would guess that a large proportion of ‘attached’ Lit members are on here without their partners knowledge - I am!

Cheat is not a metaphor for guilt. Cheating is active breaking of relationship rules--if you are in an open relationship in which each partner has agreed to rules which permit unlimited sexual encounters with outsiders that of course would preclude the possibility of cheating being a factor. This circumstance however, requires clear discussions between partners on the boundries of the behaviors each partner can or can not engage in with respect to sex.

Guilt is an emotional response (non sociopathic)humans experience in response to stimulus in which they experience the feeling of failure. Guilt can be a valid or invalid response to conditions or circumstances. One might experience guilt in response to achieving a poor grade on a test in school. If you had studies and performed to the best of your ability, guilt is an invalid response to the circumstances because you performed to the best of your ability. Experiencing guilt in response to cheating on the test to get a higher grade would be a valid response because it would be under circumstances where you broke the rules of taking the test and failed to perform to the best of your ability.

The next component would necessarily involve discerning if cheating in a relationship violates a couples relationship rules (simply asking both partners should give sufficient answer)--if so, then the ability to comply with those rules of “faithfulness” becomes a simple question of performing to the best of ones ability to comply with those rules.

We don’t have relationship rules, we are unable to talk about them. My sexuality is oppressive to him and thus I am unable to talk about it without appearing to be threatening

Finally, being on lit without a partners knowledge begs the question, “why is it something you hide?” If not guilt, or fear of confrontation for cheating, then why is it a secret? For the record, I do not keep my participation here a secret from my partner because it is the kind of thing my partner would want to know about--even if they arent interested in participating. Honesty builds relationship strength and intimacy and secrets and deception are harmful to trust and closeness between partners.

If my partner knew I was on here he would be very upset. Should the part of our relationship that is (for want of a better description) not working, preclude me having this conversation on Lit?

Forgive me if I’m being too serious and spoiling the fun!

Being Serious is not the same thing as spoiling the fun I do find it interesting that you feel guilt--hence the apology for what you consider being too serious in a thread on an adult erotica site, but your position regarding “cheating” seems to indicate that no apology would be necessary for responding to a basic instinct which might leave your partner feeling betrayed, unloved or at worst, could lead to the disollution of your relationship.

Except for sex, this is easily the best relationship I’ve had, and this is what keeps me there. 19th century French writer, George Sand (lover of Chopin) had an interesting theory. She said that for a relationship to be successful it needs three things: 1. An emotional connection. 2. A mental connection. 3. A physical connection. Should one of these elements be missing or partially missing, it is still possible to have a relationship. If two of these elements are missing there is little hope of making it work.

Interesting that few on this thread mention, or have gone as far as F (one to G). Thus I’m very impressed with peoples’ integrity, fidelity and ability to quell their sexual urges when tested, that’s if this is their true motive, and not - as in my case - to avoid feeling guilt (but perhaps I do have just a little bit of integrity lurking there, but heavily disguised as respect)

 

[janeyl]

A. Anything more than lunch is cheating
B. Dinner and some flirting is OK
C. A little messing around is fine, it’s just fun
D. Oral sex, but no actual fucking
E. Fucking, as long as you tell your partner afterwards
F. There’s no such thing as cheating

Hmmmm honestly?

I'd rather he fucked them then took them for dinner and interacted with them-that implies much more shared intimacy than simple fucking to me, to be honest...I've done far more intimate things with people than fucking

but then I'm probably strange...

 

[deskuser]

B for me because I've been in that situation so many times on business trips and thats as far as its ever gone although there's nothing wrong with having fantasies, if hubs accompanied me though it might be a different story.

 

[Justfantasies]

Jenny:

I started the "How Far Would You Go" track a long while back and I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your contributions

They aren't "too serious." They are fascinating. Especially so your remark that once you think about F you have already cheated in an important sense. I agree totally.

I have also been rather sexually focused during my life and have once had the pleasure of a truly open relationship. Not only was it more honest at every level, but sharing our experiences was truly and erotic experience.

Thanks for your contributions.

JF

Text in bold italics represent my answers to Ryan Black's reply to my last post.

Originally Posted by jennylikes
You are on a business trip and you meet someone you are attracted to. How far would you go/have you gone before you considered yourself cheating on your spouse of significant other?

A. Anything more than lunch is cheating
B. Dinner and some flirting is OK
C. A little messing around is fine, it’s just fun
D. Oral sex, but no actual fucking
E. Fucking, as long as you tell your partner afterwards
F. There’s no such thing as cheating

Please forgive me if I’m taking questions A-F too seriously but I find this aspect of relationship very interesting and would like to know more.

Also, there’s something lurking at the back of my mind which wants to look at the A-F criteria from a different perspective. For example, why stop at A, as a number of contributors to the thread have done, when it’s obvious you would like to go to F? What’s really stopping you? Comfort zone and cheating are sometimes mentioned here, but is this a valid reason for stopping at A? The following is just my thinking aloud so please forgive its lack of thoroughness and refinement.

I’d better start by saying that I love my partner, having many things in common we enjoy a very creative and productive relationship. The one thing that I find very difficult is that I need a lot more sex than he does - left to him, I’m not sure it would even happen. He once told me he felt oppressed by my sexuality.

Back to the questions though. If I were having a business lunch with someone I was sexually attracted to and thinking to myself ‘I’d rather we were in one of our hotel rooms screwing each others brains out’ then I be seriously asking myself what’s stopping me? It wouldn’t be to do with integrity or any such high mindlessness - any ‘integrity’ I was feeling in this situation would be nothing more than guilt dressed up to look like integrity. Personally, around sex I have little or no integrity because sex is such a fundamental instinct for me. Without sex (like food) we would all very soon be gone from this planet.

Sex starts in my brain. Unless I can be faithful in my brain (which for me is the most vital part of my anatomy, because if I didn’t have a brain I’d be a pile of bones and jelly on the floor) then I surely can’t claim that I’m being faithful. If I’m having sex with my partner but imagining I’m being screwed the way I like to be screwed by someone else, then am I being faithful?

The answer to that question would best be posed to your partner of course.

I don’t think he would appreciate me asking this question as he would know that it was loaded.

The unilateral withholding of sex from a partner is as serious a breach of relationship rules as is cheating (see below). Outside of medical issues or psychological factors for which therapeutic assistace should be sought, the human body is capable of performing sexually every day of the year. It is as integral a component of an intimate relationship as emotional, mental and spiritual contact. Limiting sexual intimacy without purposeful agreement by partners is as destructive to a relationship as infidelity.

Let me say here that I think my sexuality is unusually strong compared to what I intuit from reading peoples' accounts on Lit. Thus trying to answer A-F may just not work in the circumstances as I’m probably what you would describe as being addicted to sex. To give you some idea, I became sexually rampant from a very early age and my sex drive hasn’t changed much since then, the controlling factor has become the availability of suitable sexual partners. At one stage the more sex I had, the more I wanted. I once had five sexually active partners on the go and was indulging in sex several times a day, sometimes spending whole weekends in bed with one or two of my more athletic partners, as well as my then husband. Realising I was in a position to take this even further I decided I didn’t want to explore the consequences of doing so, and thus turned back. The availability of endless sexual partners was due to my situation (I worked in a private adult residential college - it looked so respectable from the outside!) which I decided to leave for a career change.

Thus expecting any full time partner to live up to my sexual needs is surely unrealistic and that I’m doomed to experience sexual frustration most of the time. As long as I bury myself in creative work the energy is diverted and well used, it’s when this isn’t possible the problem rears its head. The only man I had a relationship with who needed as much sex as me was just not partner material and it ended after a few months. I’d be interested to hear if you though my addiction made my trying to answer the A-F questions inappropriate.

Thus being ‘faithful’ because I don’t want to hurt my partner and/or because I’m feeling guilty and imagining the consequences of being found out, to me, doesn’t add up to anything resembling integrity or even being faithful. Some of you mention love. Of course it’s great if sex is accompanied by love, but it doesn’t have to be, sex is too basic a requirement for love to always have to be present.

I am not sure I could hold up to the perfect standard of integrity you propose. Could anyone truly say they have NEVER had a stray thought, or guilty fantasy? Not sure what you mean by guilty fantasy. I doubt that anyone could honestly hold to that perfect standard of integrity--however--remaining faithful in the face of such instinctive impulses is what differentiates us from most animals--we are not breeders of convenience--and sex is designed to be as pleasurable and satisfying as it is designed to be healthy and intimate bonding.

Surely we have evolved sex to suite our needs rather than “sex being designed” as if it had been conveniently given us by some esoteric being

I know myself well enough to realise that given the ‘right’ circumstances I would end up screwing my business colleague straight after lunch - at present it’s only thinking that my partner would see it in my face when I got home that stops me. Thus does ‘A’ have any more integrity (or whatever you want to call it) than ‘F’ when the decision not to screw someone other than your partner is based on guilt?

Experiencing a thought, or fantasy is NOT the same thing as engaging in an action. You cite your brain as your largest sex organ. The brain experiences thoughts, memories, associations, desires and sensations in microseconds--experiencing the thought of stealing a bicycle is NOT the same thing as pondering, planning, dwelling on the thought nor is it the same as acting on an impulse to steal a bicycle.

These days I might not act so much on impulse but I sometimes get very, very close - but I certainly DO ponder, plan and dwell upon how to go about getting myself laid! That my plans fail is mainly due to not wanting to have to face my partner knowing I’ve just thoroughly enjoyed fucking someone - I don’t think I’m trying to avoid being a cheat, it’s simply guilt that deters me

As to the ‘right’ circumstances, what does that involve if not the planning of what those circumstances might be which would enable you to “cheat” and justify it as the inability to control your impulses in advance, which precludes it being impulsive at all, but instead becomes a pre meditated act. The human brain is capable of rational thought as well as experiencing instinctive drives---the question is which is in control of our actions.

Surely each in their place and time. I sometimes want to let go and be completely out of control - taken over by the ecstasy of sexual feelings and orgasms. I sometimes just can’t stand being what Culture would like me to be , a ‘good’ person, and I need to feel the delightful energy of being really, really ‘bad’. The status quo doesn’t suit me and never will

Some of your replies mention that you don’t want to ‘cheat’ - is not ‘cheating’ just a metaphor for guilt, and that guilt is too uncomfortable a feeling to live with? Besides that, why would you need to make a conscious decision not to cheat if your primary relationship is satisfactory in the first place. I would guess that a large proportion of ‘attached’ Lit members are on here without their partners knowledge - I am!

Cheat is not a metaphor for guilt. Cheating is active breaking of relationship rules--if you are in an open relationship in which each partner has agreed to rules which permit unlimited sexual encounters with outsiders that of course would preclude the possibility of cheating being a factor. This circumstance however, requires clear discussions between partners on the boundries of the behaviors each partner can or can not engage in with respect to sex.

Guilt is an emotional response (non sociopathic)humans experience in response to stimulus in which they experience the feeling of failure. Guilt can be a valid or invalid response to conditions or circumstances. One might experience guilt in response to achieving a poor grade on a test in school. If you had studies and performed to the best of your ability, guilt is an invalid response to the circumstances because you performed to the best of your ability. Experiencing guilt in response to cheating on the test to get a higher grade would be a valid response because it would be under circumstances where you broke the rules of taking the test and failed to perform to the best of your ability.

The next component would necessarily involve discerning if cheating in a relationship violates a couples relationship rules (simply asking both partners should give sufficient answer)--if so, then the ability to comply with those rules of “faithfulness” becomes a simple question of performing to the best of ones ability to comply with those rules.

We don’t have relationship rules, we are unable to talk about them. My sexuality is oppressive to him and thus I am unable to talk about it without appearing to be threatening

Finally, being on lit without a partners knowledge begs the question, “why is it something you hide?” If not guilt, or fear of confrontation for cheating, then why is it a secret? For the record, I do not keep my participation here a secret from my partner because it is the kind of thing my partner would want to know about--even if they arent interested in participating. Honesty builds relationship strength and intimacy and secrets and deception are harmful to trust and closeness between partners.

If my partner knew I was on here he would be very upset. Should the part of our relationship that is (for want of a better description) not working, preclude me having this conversation on Lit?

Forgive me if I’m being too serious and spoiling the fun!

Being Serious is not the same thing as spoiling the fun I do find it interesting that you feel guilt--hence the apology for what you consider being too serious in a thread on an adult erotica site, but your position regarding “cheating” seems to indicate that no apology would be necessary for responding to a basic instinct which might leave your partner feeling betrayed, unloved or at worst, could lead to the disollution of your relationship.

Except for sex, this is easily the best relationship I’ve had, and this is what keeps me there. 19th century French writer, George Sand (lover of Chopin) had an interesting theory. She said that for a relationship to be successful it needs three things: 1. An emotional connection. 2. A mental connection. 3. A physical connection. Should one of these elements be missing or partially missing, it is still possible to have a relationship. If two of these elements are missing there is little hope of making it work.

Interesting that few on this thread mention, or have gone as far as F (one to G). Thus I’m very impressed with peoples’ integrity, fidelity and ability to quell their sexual urges when tested, that’s if this is their true motive, and not - as in my case - to avoid feeling guilt (but perhaps I do have just a little bit of integrity lurking there, but heavily disguised as respect)

 

[jennylikes]

Hi Justfantasies,

Thanks for confirmation that I’m not being too serious! Initially I read it as a light hearted thread, although I knew it would be viewed individually at different levels, I was still concerned I might be missing the point.

My concern was (and still is) that the reality behind the question/s you posed is of huge importance to people like myself who (dare I say it) are burdened by a sexuality which poses almost impossible demands on a partner, especially within a long term relationship. It does seem though that sex for some is no big a deal and that they are happy to take it when it’s there but are not too concerned when it isn’t - just sometimes wish I could function that way. However, I certainly wouldn’t trade that against my creative drives, at any price, as I have found the two are very connected, almost counterpartal (if there is such a word).

I think this thread would be even more revealing if contributors told us if their long term partner knew they were posting on Lit and, also, to what level (if any) they shared their sexual fantasies (is there anybody who doesn’t have sexual fantasies?). The more that is known about (for want of a better description) the ‘quality’ of a contributors long term relationship the more we can understand and learn about our own.

Jennyx

 

[Justfantasies]

Hi Jenny:

I am very glad also that I got the thread started up again and that you could add such intelligent responses . You really went to the heart of my reason for putting it there in the first place.

What I was hinting at was exactly what you seem to have in mind. For many of us, the cultural confines of serial monogamy are almost too hard to take. The alternatives seem to be “open marriage” (or something like that) or “cheating.” The former would seem to be a better way to go from the perspective of honesty and personal joy, but hard to achieve and hard to manage. The latter has the understandable veneer of dishonesty, almost by definition.

In my ideal world, sex would be something that friends would undertake in well (at the risk of being tautologous) a friendly manner. I have had one relationship like that and it worked well at that level. Because we were honest with each other and not especially jealous types, we could leverage our other relationships for our own pleasure. Talk of the other’s lovers was a huge turn on for us both. And we even ritualized our encounters with other people, working hard to make sure that the other spouse was ready for his or her date and demanding the details when he/she returned from the lover’s lair.

We aren’t together anymore, but not because of sex and I know (now) that very few people have had that kind of openness and I am lucky to have had it. What I suspect though is that many of us need it and are either forced into circumstances of deepest frustration or to seeking adventures. I have found especially interesting, over the years, in my chats with married female friends, how many regularly have dalliances with men not their spouses. This seems to be true even with the most shy women I have met and I am guessing that the possibility never even crosses their husbands’ minds, while their wives are out having the time of their lives.

I am currently separated from my second wife and again not for sexual reasons, but I was not completely loyal during our time together, since I often found partial relief to my intense need for sex through finding virtual lovers on the Internet and I have been very polygamous at that level. My wife would be mortified if she knew, so I can think of no good that would come out of letting her know. Do I feel guilty about what I have done? Not in the slightest. Do I want to hurt her or totally destroy our relationship? Of course not.

JF

 

[BongoGal]

As mentioned before, if you do anything that you would want to keep secret from your significant other, then it's cheating. It doesn't matter if it's as simple as holding hands; if you would try to keep your s/o from finding out, then it's cheating.

 

[jennylikes]

As mentioned before, if you do anything that you would want to keep secret from your significant other, then it's cheating. It doesn't matter if it's as simple as holding hands; if you would try to keep your s/o from finding out, then it's cheating.

I get what you are saying but you don't mention if you have ever kept anything secret from your significant other? Jennyx

 

[jennylikes]

Hi Jenny:

I am very glad also that I got the thread started up again and that you could add such intelligent responses . You really went to the heart of my reason for putting it there in the first place.

What I was hinting at was exactly what you seem to have in mind. For many of us, the cultural confines of serial monogamy are almost too hard to take. The alternatives seem to be “open marriage” (or something like that) or “cheating.” The former would seem to be a better way to go from the perspective of honesty and personal joy, but hard to achieve and hard to manage. The latter has the understandable veneer of dishonesty, almost by definition.

In my ideal world, sex would be something that friends would undertake in well (at the risk of being tautologous) a friendly manner. I have had one relationship like that and it worked well at that level. Because we were honest with each other and not especially jealous types, we could leverage our other relationships for our own pleasure. Talk of the other’s lovers was a huge turn on for us both. And we even ritualized our encounters with other people, working hard to make sure that the other spouse was ready for his or her date and demanding the details when he/she returned from the lover’s lair.

We aren’t together anymore, but not because of sex and I know (now) that very few people have had that kind of openness and I am lucky to have had it. What I suspect though is that many of us need it and are either forced into circumstances of deepest frustration or to seeking adventures. I have found especially interesting, over the years, in my chats with married female friends, how many regularly have dalliances with men not their spouses. This seems to be true even with the most shy women I have met and I am guessing that the possibility never even crosses their husbands’ minds, while their wives are out having the time of their lives.

I am currently separated from my second wife and again not for sexual reasons, but I was not completely loyal during our time together, since I often found partial relief to my intense need for sex through finding virtual lovers on the Internet and I have been very polygamous at that level. My wife would be mortified if she knew, so I can think of no good that would come out of letting her know. Do I feel guilty about what I have done? Not in the slightest. Do I want to hurt her or totally destroy our relationship? Of course not.

JF

Hi JF. I hope my banging on about cheating in the following note doesn’t sound too preachy but I can’t think of another way of saying it at present. Also, my apologies to those who majored in Social Sciences, I know I’m offside - but then why shouldn’t I have a say about where I think the concept of cheating could have originated. Some contributors have said that anything much more than “A” is cheating - but you don’t elaborate on the circumstances which led you to that conclusion?

We all live inside a collective Cultural balloon in which we have no choice but to travel together. It’s tight in there, and because it sometimes feels as if the balloon isn’t flying in the direction we would like it to, we are all continually trying to change its shape and redirect it. This can obviously lead to a conflict of interests.

If Culture - Culture being the history of human thought, aspiration and action etc which has brought us to where we are all standing (or sitting) at this very moment - did fit our needs, then we wouldn’t be here discussing it, we’d all be too busy flying happily along with each other and enjoying the view.

As the population expands our Cultural balloon gets tighter and heavier and we try to formulate rules in order that we can move around without stepping on each other’s toes and crashing. But we all have different ideas as to who should make the rules, rules which at times cause divisions between people who might in other times and places be great friends. Some believe it should be one particular political/religious/educational/environmental/whatever group, but a neighbour might, for other equally legitimate reasons, choose a completely different set of rules and rule makers. Which one is right - and has the right to be right? If each faction maintains that they are right, and that all competing factions are wrong, then who is to be believed - if anybody?! If this is so, then the continuation of our so-called ‘democracy’ is dependant on creating conflicting factions in order to win the right to impose a particular set of beliefs or rules. Thus the beliefs and rules we are expected to live by are derived out of conflict.

Should ‘cheating’ be regarded as cheating because one particular human, or group of humans, decided that “B-F” should be deemed cheating. Was cheating ordained as cheating by some deity thousands of years ago, and we are to continue bowing to it unquestioningly. Then could cheating be cheating because from the moment we stepped onto this planet we were told it was cheating, firstly by our parents, and then by our teachers and then by folk who know about all the religious and political groups they heard about from their teachers who heard it from their teachers ... and so it goes on and on and on until someone or group makes a suggestion which is blindingly obvious as to how there could be some other way of doing things.

Cheating can surely only be cheating if someone believes they should only love and express that love intimately and lovingly with only one other person. But why do we believe we should only be able to love and express love towards one person? Who said - and on what authority did someone or group decide - we should limit ourselves in our ability to express love? By observing the threads and posts on Lit alone it is evident that a vast number of people are feeling the need to express and explore love (in whatever way they can) to more than one person. There must be something very significant about this need if there are so many people experiencing problems with it.

But then perhaps the current notion of cheating came about for economic rather than religious or moral reasons? At other times and in other cultures it has been very different. Polyandry, which might seem repugnant to some in the here and now (although currently practised by at least one major western religious group), has in other times and cultures been the rule and practised widely, therefore our current sexual mores might appear incomprehensible to those piloting or just riding the Cultural balloon in centuries to come.

For me the Cultural balloon is too cramped and travelling too slowly and I want to get off, even though I know this is not possible.

Please forgive my somewhat unformulated and rambling thoughts on the subject but I felt compelled to say something. Please someone, put me straight on all this!

 

[jennylikes]

Have just purchased a pile of antiquarian books hoping they might give me some clues as to why I think I’m cheating and feel guilty when I’m sexually attracted to someone other than my live-in partner (and also feel the urge to do something about it!).

One book in particular has me riveted and which I recommend. Strange Customs of Courtship & Marriage, William J. Flielding. The Blakiston Company, Philadelphia, 1942.

I’m currently exploring under headings such as:

- Curious Mating Customs
- Kissing Customs
- Bundling
- Primitive Marriage Practices
- Marriage Taboos
- Chastity
- Multiple Marriage
- Marriage by Capture
- Marriage by Purchase
- Trial Marriage
- Romantic Marriage

I’ll report back when I’ve read it.

 

[Justfantasies]

Many of our secret guilts about sex are rooted in our culture as you say, but our cultural norms are themselves rooted in cir-cum-stances that no longer apply. Poorer, less technological sophisticated, societies have to worry seriously about paternity issues and in societies in which people begin to have incurable health problems in their 30s, sexual exploration may not be a preocuupation.

There have always been people who have deviated from the norm and smaller societies where the norms have been different. Your books may be guides in this respect and pointers to our future.

It is clear that in our society, more things are possible and our culture will have to adapt to that. It will take time. Perhaps online possibilities are one way for that adaptation to take place. Not just text groups like this but graphics-oriented worlds in which one becomes a sexually active avatar. My experience with these is that they are transforming; they begin to change behviour in the real world and remove inhibitions.

Perhaps that is the way to the polyamory that you seek Jenny

Have just purchased a pile of antiquarian books hoping they might give me some clues as to why I think I’m cheating and feel guilty when I’m sexually attracted to someone other than my live-in partner (and also feel the urge to do something about it!).

One book in particular has me riveted and which I recommend. Strange Customs of Courtship & Marriage, William J. Flielding. The Blakiston Company, Philadelphia, 1942.

I’m currently exploring under headings such as:

- Curious Mating Customs
- Kissing Customs
- Bundling
- Primitive Marriage Practices
- Marriage Taboos
- Chastity
- Multiple Marriage
- Marriage by Capture
- Marriage by Purchase
- Trial Marriage
- Romantic Marriage

I’ll report back when I’ve read it.

 

[Justfantasies]

Bump...