How do you overcome your upbringing/socially induced perceptions of what is "proper"?

[callinectes]

How do you overcome your upbringing/socially induced perceptions of what is "proper"?

I am posing this as sincere question. This has been troubling me and I would appreciate helpful advice with no flames.

Even though I have had submissive tendancies for as long as I can remember, I only began to explore and identify them several years ago. After reading, reading, and reading some more, I finally decided to take the plunge and pursue a real-time D/s relationship.

I have been involved with a wonderful man for several months now. He is everything a first-timer could want and I am very pleased with my relationship with him. However, I still can't shake some of the lingering feelings of shame about what I have become. When I am with him, it is 100% natural and right. He does nothing to make me feel ashamed, I only feel loved and safe. It is iin the light of the day so to speak, as I reflect upon our activities, that I feel ashamed at having been so wanton, so willing and needing to do things that nice girls don't do. Even worse, independant intelligent women don't let down their guard with men in such a way..they don't allow men to control them and turn then into quivering masses of obedient womanhood.

How can something that fulfills me in so many ways leave me so conflicted? Is this a normal part of the journey into submission? Have any of you felt this way? How did you deal with it?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I am posing this as sincere question. This has been troubling me and I would appreciate helpful advice with no flames.

Even though I have had submissive tendancies for as long as I can remember, I only began to explore and identify them several years ago. After reading, reading, and reading some more, I finally decided to take the plunge and pursue a real-time D/s relationship.

I have been involved with a wonderful man for several months now. He is everything a first-timer could want and I am very pleased with my relationship with him. However, I still can't shake some of the lingering feelings of shame about what I have become. When I am with him, it is 100% natural and right. He does nothing to make me feel ashamed, I only feel loved and safe. It is iin the light of the day so to speak, as I reflect upon our activities, that I feel ashamed at having been so wanton, so willing and needing to do things that nice girls don't do. Even worse, independant intelligent women don't let down their guard with men in such a way..they don't allow men to control them and turn then into quivering masses of obedient womanhood.

How can something that fulfills me in so many ways leave me so conflicted? Is this a normal part of the journey into submission? Have any of you felt this way? How did you deal with it?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Which nice girls don't do these things? How do you know they don't?
And who told you that independent, intelligent women don't let down their guard?

Have we not met on these boards before today? Do you find me to be an unintelligent, dependent person? How about catalina and dozens more I could name?

Think about it, dolly... ;-D

 

[lettinggo]

I don't think it's uncommon at all to be embarrassed or sheepish about things you enjoyed once the adrenaline rush is gone. Intelligent and independent women know what they want and they're not afraid to go after it. I have a great deal of control over my day to day life. I love relinquishing that in the bedroom and putting myself at his mercy. I'm no less intelligent or independent at that time than I am at any other. And if I feel sheepish later, I just put it in my pocket and remember how good it felt.

I think it's pretty normal to feel conflicted when your wants and needs differ from what society has told you is normal. For me, I just keep in mind that society doesn't live in my bedroom (or dungeon, or kitchen...), so I reserve the right to make the rules when I'm there.

 

[nymphee]

It is iin the light of the day so to speak, as I reflect upon our activities, that I feel ashamed at having been so wanton, so willing and needing to do things that nice girls don't do. Even worse, independant intelligent women don't let down their guard with men in such a way..they don't allow men to control them and turn then into quivering masses of obedient womanhood.
Thanks in advance for your responses.

I really don't like the idea that some vanilla people have that a sub cannot be a strong woman. It is animal nature for female to cede to male and it is only since feminism and such that the idea of strong womanhood emerged. Being submissive makes you neither a bad person or a weak or stupid one, by the same token, there is nothing "wrong" with a Domme. People are just wired differently.
An intelligent woman does not allow the fear of other people's perceptions to spoil her happiness Darling. If we weren't supposed to enjoy, it wouldn't feel good- you are not hurting anyone (although I'm assuming you're getting hurt from time to time )
You would be far less strong, or intelligent if you built up an ice queen image in a bid to never fall under the thrall of a man or to allow yourself to enjoy the sex that you really want and that is at your disposal- denying it to yourself will only make you unhappy (and probably grumpy)
Unfortunately there will always be people who see BDSM as wrong and deviant. But there are people who think that sex itself is dirty- so, if you're going to piss people off anyway, you may as well enjoy yourself doing it!

 

[A Desert Rose]

I am posing this as sincere question. This has been troubling me and I would appreciate helpful advice with no flames.

Even though I have had submissive tendancies for as long as I can remember, I only began to explore and identify them several years ago. After reading, reading, and reading some more, I finally decided to take the plunge and pursue a real-time D/s relationship.

I have been involved with a wonderful man for several months now. He is everything a first-timer could want and I am very pleased with my relationship with him. However, I still can't shake some of the lingering feelings of shame about what I have become. When I am with him, it is 100% natural and right. He does nothing to make me feel ashamed, I only feel loved and safe. It is iin the light of the day so to speak, as I reflect upon our activities, that I feel ashamed at having been so wanton, so willing and needing to do things that nice girls don't do. Even worse, independant intelligent women don't let down their guard with men in such a way..they don't allow men to control them and turn then into quivering masses of obedient womanhood.

How can something that fulfills me in so many ways leave me so conflicted? Is this a normal part of the journey into submission? Have any of you felt this way? How did you deal with it?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

To answer the thrust of your post: I do what most men do... I compartmentalize most areas of my life.

It works so well for them that I've taught myself how to do it.

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

Good question

Thank you for posting this. This is also something that has crossed my mind. Especially as a newbie trying to reseach and learn. How do you get past a lifetime of conditioning towards a particular behavior without some emotional conflict?

Rox.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think the secret lies in accepting yourself and knowing without doubt what you need and that in pursuing that you are not harming anyone else. It really has nothing to do with anyone else what another adult does in their own life, who they do it with, how often etc., as long as it is their choice and is not hurting anyone else who has not been given a choice. If you can feel secure in your choices and who you are, the insecurities and fears about what others would think according to the myths we were raised on have little impact. It takes time to deprogramme, but it is possible.

Catalina

 

[callinectes]

Which nice girls don't do these things? How do you know they don't?
And who told you that independent, intelligent women don't let down their guard?

Have we not met on these boards before today? Do you find me to be an unintelligent, dependent person? How about catalina and dozens more I could name?

Think about it, dolly... ;-D

NO, no, of course "I" don't think that. I just struggle with what "they" (parents, society, friends) say I "should" be. And while it is very easy to say fuck it and go with the flow, I have trouble doing that. I want to let it go, I need to let it go, yet it persists.

My intention was not to insult any of you, y'all are wonderful and have been immensely helpful. I'm sorry if it sounded as if I was.

 

[A Desert Rose]

NO, no, of course "I" don't think that. I just struggle with what "they" (parents, society, friends) say I "should" be. And while it is very easy to say fuck it and go with the flow, I have trouble doing that. I want to let it go, I need to let it go, yes it persists.

My intention was not to insult any of you, y'all are wondrful and have been immensly helpful. I'm sorry if it sounded as if I was.

LMAO
I know you were not being insulting. You sound like anyone else who is young and starting out on this.

Find a mentor. Someone you can talk to who's been there- done that. It helps a lot to be positively reinforced by another who's walked kinda in your shoes.

 

[FurryFury]

*hugs*

It sounds as if you are going through a painful time. If you've read my little fiction stories you might gather that I find the conflict and shame to be the most interesting and sexiest part of submission for me. You'd be right about that.

For years I was ashamed of my fantasies. I though something was wrong with me. Why didn't I fantasize about fields of flowers, sweet kisses and teddy bears? Why couldn't I be normal? I had few terms for what did make me hot, what I needed. I thought of those things as deviant, humiliation and wrong. Someday I might get healthy I thought to myself. Someday I might crave sunshine and romance in a traditional sense.

That never happened. What did happen was finding power exchange. Researching it I found D/s and BDSM. All my desires were in there. Low and behold I wasn't the only one either. I found out where my preconceptions of what was wrong with these things were incorrect. I found an open accepting community of people online. I wrote my thoughts and fantasies down, sharing them. Waiting scared for reactions was no easy thing.

For the most part, my thoughts and fantasies were accepted, even understood here. What an incredible thing! I began to make peace with my own proclivities because of that and my husband's acceptance. I no longer hate myself for my base needs and wishes. I too can accept myself in these areas now. What an incredible thing that is.

This is why I love Lit and all of the wonderful people here.

Fury

PS Any difficult journey is, in my experience done with very small determined baby steps. There will be days when you feel you have lost ground, or failed. On those days you must forgive yourself and start fresh another day. In the long run you will prevail if you do those things and desire to.

 

[callinectes]

Okay I can't figure out how to include multiple quotes in my reply, so I am going to wing it.

ADR...first of all, thanks for saying I sound young..the nicest thing I've heard in days! I think your suggestion of a mentor is a good one. In a way I have adopted all of you as my mentors (unbeknownst to you!) but maybe a one-on-one connection would be more helpful. Thanks!

lettingo..Good point about society not living in your bedroom, etc. The funny thing is, I am very open-minded when it comes to other's lives. What two consenting adults do is none of my business and if you're happy, more power to you. It's odd that I don't apply that to myself so easily.

nymphee you said An intelligent woman does not allow the fear of other people's perceptions to spoil her happiness Darling. touche' I need to laminate that on a card and keep it in my purse!

rox_shy I'm glad this thread is helpful to you

Catalina as always, your advice is excellent. Your point that deprogramming is possible but takes time is a good one. I think I am going through a stage of that now.

Fury hugs back. I have been conflicted but I feel better already. I think I am in one of those faltering footsteps periods. Our relationship has become more intense of late and I think some of these feelings are coming from that shift..I'm adjusting to the change.

Thanks to all of you!!

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

Fury, I have to say thank you as well. Your words of small baby steps and losing ground struck a cord. I think this could be a long process for me with a few steps forward and then some retreats. I'd like to say to assimiliate what I've learned, but more likely from feeling a little overwhelmed....lol

Rox.

 

[FurryFury]

Fury, I have to say thank you as well. Your words of small baby steps and losing ground struck a cord. I think this could be a long process for me with a few steps forward and then some retreats. I'd like to say to assimiliate what I've learned, but more likely from feeling a little overwhelmed....lol

Rox.

*blushes*

You are both more than welcome. I've found that the idea of baby steps helps me a great deal in trying to go on some life journeys. It's important to allow yourself days of backward step but not let that stop you. So many people get down on themselves at times of failure or back stepping that they allow that to stop them altogether at least for a while.

Fury

 

[angel_girl]

Yes...Fury Rocks!!

I'm helped in some way with every post she makes. This feeling of conflict runs deep in me since I've just started stepping out of my comfort zone a little. And when my steps lead to quicksand and I have to struggle back to saner ground, I find the notion of baby step very, very comforting. I have to remind myself that it doesn't all need to happen RIGHT NOW...that everything will come in time and going slow, getting comfortable with each step is okay. Baby steps, indeed.

 

[FurryFury]

Yes...Fury Rocks!!

I'm helped in some way with every post she makes. This feeling of conflict runs deep in me since I've just started stepping out of my comfort zone a little. And when my steps lead to quicksand and I have to struggle back to saner ground, I find the notion of baby step very, very comforting. I have to remind myself that it doesn't all need to happen RIGHT NOW...that everything will come in time and going slow, getting comfortable with each step is okay. Baby steps, indeed.

Thanks for saying that.

My day wasn't looking so great but y'all are cheering me up! I love to help people in any small way I can. That's one of the things I miss most about working at the library, helping people find what they need.

Fury

 

[A Desert Rose]

Yes...Fury Rocks!!

I'm helped in some way with every post she makes. This feeling of conflict runs deep in me since I've just started stepping out of my comfort zone a little. And when my steps lead to quicksand and I have to struggle back to saner ground, I find the notion of baby step very, very comforting. I have to remind myself that it doesn't all need to happen RIGHT NOW...that everything will come in time and going slow, getting comfortable with each step is okay. Baby steps, indeed.

Oh yes she does. She knows a great deal and is a fabulous resource.

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

Angel_girl you're exactly right, although sometimes it's hard to remember that when you're in the midst of it all. Especially when trying to make those steps outside your comfort zone, as you say. I've never been one to jump in with both feet anyway so the idea of baby steps helps alot.

Rox.

 

[FurryFury]

Oh yes she does. She knows a great deal and is a fabulous resource.

*blushes*

Thanks ADR.

I'd say I know just a little.

Fury

 

[FurryFury]

Angel_girl you're exactly right, although sometimes it's hard to remember that when you're in the midst of it all. Especially when trying to make those steps outside your comfort zone, as you say. I've never been one to jump in with both feet anyway so the idea of baby steps helps alot.

Rox.

I do tend to dive in but even so, I have found that I tend to want to do too much too soon feeling a strong sense of I have limited time left on this earth. So it helps me to remember to go slower and try to be patient with myself and my partner.

Fury

 

[angel_girl]

Angel_girl you're exactly right, although sometimes it's hard to remember that when you're in the midst of it all. Especially when trying to make those steps outside your comfort zone, as you say. I've never been one to jump in with both feet anyway so the idea of baby steps helps alot.

Rox.

Oh, man...it is hard to remember to go slow. Especially when you get caught up in the moment and that moment is so incredible...sigh...(sorry, reminiscing ). But, one thing I've learned already during my very short journey is that it's okay to realize you've made a mistake and step back to head in a different direction or even slow down a whole big ole' bunch.

Be careful...but take the steps. We're in the same newbie boat Rox - but I gotcher back!

 

[TheRiverWild]

How do you overcome your upbringing/socially induced perceptions of what is "proper"?

I think the title of your post has the clues you need to answer this question. We feel shame when we do something that is wrong - but wrong in whose eyes is the key.

Upbringing - We feel shame when we do what we know our parents (or whomever reared us) would disapprove of. But these people love us and want us to be happy. So there is no shame in this lifestyle with regards to what our parents think because this lifestyle makes us happy - and that's what most parents want for us more than anything else. Remember, your parents want you to be happy.

And if you don't like that answer, how about: Your parents have no ability or right to make you feel shame in what you do in the bedroom - they don't belong there. Only you have that ability and right.

Society - We feel shame when we do what society disapproves of. The big problem with this is that societal norms are something of a moving target. "She showed her ankle?!? What a huzzy!" Just ask any homosexual (or bi-sexual for that matter) about how societal approval/disapproval changes.

And if you don't like that answer, how about: Like your parents, society has no ability or right to make you feel shame in what you do in the bedroom - society doesn't belong there. Only you have that ability and right.

And if you don't like that answer, how about: What other women do or don't do, or are or are not, has no bearing on you. You have no idea what their lives are like behind their public persona. Look at me: I'm independant, intelligent and something of a big-shot in my (male-dominated) field. And I'm a sub. You can't compare your insides to anyone else's outsides - you will always come up short. Did you know that Bette Davis was a battered wife? Bette Davis, imagine that.

My mother (a font, nay! an Oracle of good advice) once had this to say; "I spent my twenties doing what everyone else thought I should, my thirties pretending I didn't care what they thought, and my fourties realizing I didn't give a damn in the first place." Smart woman.

You're right - it's easy to say fuck it and go with the flow and much harder to do. We play tapes in our heads that were planted daily from the time we were young and they take time to unlearn. Every time you remind yourself that there is no shame except that which you impose upon yourself you are training your mind to make that your new reality - and overwriting those old tapes one by one.

Just my two cents.

(Steps down from her soapbox...)

 

[catalina_francisco]

You can't please all the people all the time, best you can do is please yourself.

Catalina

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

Thanks angel_girl, I appreciate that. I have a feeling I'm going to need it as half the time I keep saying to myself, what the heck are you doing? Are you crazy or what? LOLL And if I can I'll be glad to return the favor.



Riverwild, I'm not the op, but found your "soapbox" to be very insightful.


Rox.

 

[neonflux]

I am posing this as sincere question. This has been troubling me and I would appreciate helpful advice with no flames.

Even though I have had submissive tendancies for as long as I can remember, I only began to explore and identify them several years ago. After reading, reading, and reading some more, I finally decided to take the plunge and pursue a real-time D/s relationship...Even worse, independant intelligent women don't let down their guard with men in such a way..they don't allow men to control them and turn then into quivering masses of obedient womanhood.

How can something that fulfills me in so many ways leave me so conflicted? Is this a normal part of the journey into submission? Have any of you felt this way? How did you deal with it?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Hi callinectes, What a great question to pose to the women in this forum! I have been following the thread with interest even though I am only now posting. Others have spoken eloquently to the issue of following one's desires, so I won't say more on that. I am switch and tend to be slightly more Domme - my kink partner would say much more - than sub. What has been harder is to reconcile my feminist ideals with the idea of submission, and so I very much identify with this part of your conflict.

A woman whom I consider to be a mentor has said that we live in a culture which doesn't value the gift of submission. She is an extremely powerful Pro Domme who considers herself a "versatile" player (where I got the phrase for my usual avatar - not the one I'm using right now). She started her journey in kink by subbing to a man who was very entrenched in the gay men's leather community, where it was traditional to start this way, whether one ended up being a Top or bottom. She has helped me to understand how powerful submission really is.

I think that we live in a Top culture, where submission is seen as weakness rather than strength, where it is seen as something that is 'taken' rather than something that is "given," where it is associated with being a victim rather than an equal and therefore is also associated with traditional femininity. However, the more that I sub, the more i recognize that in submission one exhibits strength, self-possession and great generosity. To consciously submit requires all of these qualities, and deserves to be treasured and respected. This has recently been brought even more fully home to me by two friends, a lesbian couple who have been together for 22 years, in a formal 24/7 Mistress/slave relationship for 4.

Submission can be a fully feminist act...

Neon

 

[FurryFury]

You can't please all the people all the time, best you can do is please yourself.

Catalina

Eh, sometimes I think I'd have more luck at the first thing than at the second. In the final analysis, I can't quite do either.

Fury