How do you give/respond to Direction?

[Ebonyfire]

More from David Stein....

The popular conception is that slaves are people who are forced to obey a Master’s orders, and many slaves also fantasize being forced. Being obedient is held to be the opposite of freedom, and the negative connotations of “slavery” largely consist in this lack of freedom.

This no doubt was true of many or most coerced slaves in history. It is not true of consensual slaves today. Those who become slaves today in the U.S., Europe, and the rest of the developed world do so not because they are being forced to obey, but because they positively need to obey. Obedience is the voluntary slave’s lifeblood. To obey is not our cross but our joy! We only ask to be given the opportunity.

And that’s where direction comes in. Any idiot can tell someone else what to do! Lots of people are bossy or domineering or pushy. That’s not what can satisfy a slave’s need to obey, not in the long run, because people who are merely bossy tend not to be very consistent or intelligent about what they tell others to do; they operate on whim. The more perfectly you obey someone like that, the more likely you are to get into trouble, because today’s order may contradict yesterday’s or undermine tomorrow’s. You can drive a dog or a child insane with contradictory orders; is a slave any less sensitive?

Ideally, what slaves need — whether they’re aware of wanting it or not! — is clear direction, firm goals, consistent rules, unambiguous orders. And it takes a Master with great presence of mind, intelligence, self-control, and self-understanding to provide that kind of environment.

Dom/mes:
How do you provide direction, goals, rules, and orders to ensure your sub/slave/bottom's obedience?

Subs:

How do you respond to the the above from your Dom/mes/Tops?
& what do you expect from them to ensure your obedience?


Ebony

 

[SexyChele]

Quote:
"Ideally, what slaves need — whether they’re aware of wanting it or not! — is clear direction, firm goals, consistent rules, unambiguous orders. And it takes a Master with great presence of mind, intelligence, self-control, and self-understanding to provide that kind of environment."

I agree with this quote 100%. (well, except that I do not consider myself to be a "slave" and that I am aware of what I need)

What I except from a Dom to give my obedience is something I've yet been able to fully define in words to myself. I know when I experience it, though. A man who takes the lead - without being pushy. A man who demands honesty, and has about himself a way (unable to find word here) of discerning whether that honesty is present. A man who can take control of a situation in such a way that others want him in control - he doesn't need to fight for it, or justify it, he just assumes it as naturally as some breathe.

It's the whole makeup of the man. If he is dominant, it will seep into every aspect of his life. If he is not an asshole, it will draw others to him.

I've been with men who claimed to be dominants, and did have some qualities in the bedroom as such. But out in public, they wanted to me to lead, they expect me to suddenly take the reigns. Needless to say, these relationships have never worked out. It gives conflicting signals to my brain.

 

[Ebonyfire]

slave or sub

Quote:
"Ideally, what slaves need — whether they’re aware of wanting it or not! — is clear direction, firm goals, consistent rules, unambiguous orders. And it takes a Master with great presence of mind, intelligence, self-control, and self-understanding to provide that kind of environment."

I agree with this quote 100%. (well, except that I do not consider myself to be a "slave" and that I am aware of what I need)

What I except from a Dom to give my obedience is something I've yet been able to fully define in words to myself. I know when I experience it, though. A man who takes the lead - without being pushy. A man who demands honesty, and has about himself a way (unable to find word here) of discerning whether that honesty is present. A man who can take control of a situation in such a way that others want him in control - he doesn't need to fight for it, or justify it, he just assumes it as naturally as some breathe.

It's the whole makeup of the man. If he is dominant, it will seep into every aspect of his life. If he is not an asshole, it will draw others to him.

I've been with men who claimed to be dominants, and did have some qualities in the bedroom as such. But out in public, they wanted to me to lead, they expect me to suddenly take the reigns. Needless to say, these relationships have never worked out. It gives conflicting signals to my brain.

At the end of the quote I asked subs/slaves to answer. It is apt for any relationship where obedience is desired or required.

Thanks for posting, chele.

Eb

 

[Ebonyfire]

I've been with men who claimed to be dominants, and did have some qualities in the bedroom as such. But out in public, they wanted to me to lead, they expect me to suddenly take the reigns. Needless to say, these relationships have never worked out. It gives conflicting signals to my brain.

Indeed, this is a prime example of what can happen when clear direction is not given.

A sub may doubt the ability of the Dom/me to lead him or her where he/she needs to go.

That is the beginning of the end for a D/s relationship.

Eb

 

[Red Menace]

Ideally, what slaves need — whether they’re aware of wanting it or not! — is clear direction, firm goals, consistent rules, unambiguous orders. And it takes a Master with great presence of mind, intelligence, self-control, and self-understanding to provide that kind of environment.

Subs:

How do you respond to the the above from your Dom/mes/Tops?
& what do you expect from them to ensure your obedience?


Ebony [/B]

I feel I reach my full potential under the guidance and direction of someone willing to expect and demand obediance. I need clearly defined and consistant rules and rituals or I begin to feel hesitant and unsure of myself.

He has ensured my obedience by maintaining a lifestyle that is well ordered and disciplined. I trust that if He can conduct himself in a positive and healthy manner in all aspects of life, I can surrender my life to His guidance because he'll push me to do the things I know I need.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: How do you give/respond to Direction?

I feel I reach my full potential under the guidance and direction of someone willing to expect and demand obediance. I need clearly defined and consistant rules and rituals or I begin to feel hesitant and unsure of myself.

He has ensured my obedience by maintaining a lifestyle that is well ordered and disciplined. I trust that if He can conduct himself in a positive and healthy manner in all aspects of life, I can surrender my life to His guidance because he'll push me to do the things I know I need.

I am sure your Dominant is very happy to have you.

Eb

 

[~Dream~]

Re:How Do I respond?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ebonyfire
Ideally, what slaves need — whether they’re aware of wanting it or not! — is clear direction, firm goals, consistent rules, unambiguous orders. And it takes a Master with great presence of mind, intelligence, self-control, and self-understanding to provide that kind of environment.
________________
Master Artful is very loving and respectful of me and has EARNED every bit of my respect and trust that He has..He expects me to obey His instructions and doesnt have to DEMAND anything from me because He knows I have respect enough to fulfill His wishes,He was quite pleased with the way I quite 'naturally responded as I should to each and every instruction He gave me when we first met skin to skin.

He has a firm and loving grasp on both my training and our relationship,of that I am assured.He exercises agreat deal of patience which is a plus to all beginning "slaves' such as myself.

All I expect from HIM in order to Obey,IS THE SAME Respect and admiration that I feel for Him ,and I KNOW I have that ,so things are awesome indeed.I trust that Master knows Best...

 

[Ghost's amaris]

What i need and get from my Master to follow his orders and to obey his are several things.

I need his respect and I must respect him. Clear and consiece directions. To know that if i make a mistake or messup he will explain to me how and teach me the proper form so the next ime i can perform the task properly and that standards are set and followed by both of us. If a mistake is made on either part it is delt with appropriately.

Ghost's amaris

 

[artful]

Re: Re:How Do I respond?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ebonyfire
Ideally, what slaves need — whether they’re aware of wanting it or not! — is clear direction, firm goals, consistent rules, unambiguous orders. And it takes a Master with great presence of mind, intelligence, self-control, and self-understanding to provide that kind of environment.
________________
Master Artful is very loving and respectful of me and has EARNED every bit of my respect and trust that He has.

**************************************************

For those who are not familiar with mine and Dream's relationship,...let me clarify what she has posted and add my .02 cents.

Our relationship started ONLINE, and on MY part, was a *fun* thing, to take her on, to train as an ONLINE sub.

Soon after,...because of our communicating back and forth,...I realised a potential, valid, REAL TIME, Master/slave relationship was possible, and we negotiated our LDR.

Three months later, we met face to face, and spent 5 wonderful days together, (skin-to-skin). During that meeting, (on my birthday, August 12th), I offered her my collar, and she accepted it.

She is STILL, very much in slave *TRAINING*. Does this LESSEN our relationship? Not in OUR eyes! We have only dipped our toes in the water, (so to speak).

We each have MUCH more to discover about one another but,...our journey is not only real,...we know ENOUGH about the other, that we are 100% committed to spending the rest of our life to making even MORE discoveries together.

The statements made above, are meant to ENABLE all who read the following statements, a CLEAR understanding, of just WHAT it is, that I want understood, and can address Eb's question in truthfulness.

<snip>"How do you provide direction, goals, rules, and orders to ensure your sub/slave/bottom's obedience?"<snip>

Because we are LDR at present,..and likely to be so for a number of months, there are FEW orders, rules, protocols, or rituals given, (if I can't VERIFY obedience,...in MY mind,...it is USELESS to give them).

Communication is the "KEY",...whether in skin-to-skin or LDR.

The 5 days we spent together was totally awesome for each of us, and though we indeed have a long way to go in our journey, we each look forward to learning more and more about each other.

(Now she has her own web cam, <ahem>, There will be MORE,..that I can verify-'Nuff said!-LOL

 

[Angelofsex]

Subs:

How do you respond to the the above from your Dom/mes/Tops?
& what do you expect from them to ensure your obedience?

This is what I have to learn, and I am willing to.....but understanding at first...because of the knowledge I need to know.

 

[Red Menace]

Re: Re: Re: How do you give/respond to Direction?

I am sure your Dominant is very happy to have you.

Eb

Thank you, Ebony. I hope He's happy, cuz I sure am.

 

[Ebonyfire]

**Bump**

I am bumping this one up again. It seems that direction is a topic that should be elaborated on.


What happens when a submissive resist's the direction a Dominant has for her/him?

There is a point when headstrongness becomes defiance.

Dom/mes how do you handle defiance? Do you tolerate it? And subs, how do you justify defying your Master/Mistress. Especially if you know their direction is what you crave?

Ebony

 

[kristydoll]

Ideally, what slaves need — whether they’re aware of wanting it or not! — is clear direction, firm goals, consistent rules, unambiguous orders. And it takes a Master with great presence of mind, intelligence, self-control, and self-understanding to provide that kind of environment.

What happens when a submissive resist's the direction a Dominant has for her/him?

There is a point when headstrongness becomes defiance.

And subs, how do you justify defying your Master/Mistress. Especially if you know their direction is what you crave?

I very much believe in direction, and the guidance and discipline to get there. It is a need.

Saying that, I have been guilty at times of being "defiant". In my case, my defiance has not been out of headstrongness or disrespect, but out of fear. When this happens, I do not need to be "ordered" or "disciplined" but rather led gently past that fear. If this is done, my defiance or unwillingness, evaporates.

kristy

 

[zipman]

Re: **Bump**

I am bumping this one up again. It seems that direction is a topic that should be elaborated on.


What happens when a submissive resist's the direction a Dominant has for her/him?

There is a point when headstrongness becomes defiance.

Dom/mes how do you handle defiance? Do you tolerate it? And subs, how do you justify defying your Master/Mistress. Especially if you know their direction is what you crave?

Ebony

Thanks for bumping this Eb. This is one of the threads that I had meant to post to and forgot to.

I think there are a few reasons why some subs resist the direction they are provided.

1) Bad matching of needs and wants between sub and dom/me

If a sub and dom/mes needs are not compatible, or if there is poor communication and understanding about each other's needs, I think defiance becomes a means of communication for the sub. This is by no means an ideal way to communicate, but it sends a clear message to the dom/me -you are not meeting my needs in this relationsihip or you are asking me to do things that i am not comfortable with. In an ideal world, all limits are discussed before any play starts, however, I have had relationships where the sub and I have let the relationship slowly develop over time, without clear limits being set. The relationship consisted of a lot of baby steps and tons of post scene communication to continually reestablish what was good (enjoyable) and what wasn't with boundaries rarely being tested.

2) As an act of manipulation by the sub -

Some subs use definace and as a way of manipulating the Dom/me into allowing them to top from the bottom. Defiance is not an appropriate means to communicate and should be seen as a major warning sign to a dom/me that there is something severely amiss in the relationship.

3) Unclarity around the nature of submission by the sub -

Some subs think or say that want submission, and throw themselves into it out of a mistaken desire that being dominated is their desire. Their defiance comes about when they have trouble accepting and following even simple directions and commands.

4) Poor dom/me-ing (bad direction being given) -

Another reason for defiance could be bad dom/me-ing. By providing directions or commands that go against the established boundaries and limits of the relationship. In this instance, the defiance is a valid way of a sub saying that the dom/me is actually out-of-line. Perhaps it is not the act but the method of communication that causes a negative reaction by the sub. An example of this could be being called a slut or whore during scene play. The subs defiance could be a reaction to the words that they do not want used and not the act they are being asked to perform.

Just some initial thoughts and all of them are up for debate.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: **Bump**

Thanks for bumping this Eb. This is one of the threads that I had meant to post to and forgot to.

I think there are a few reasons why some subs resist the direction they are provided.

1) Bad matching of needs and wants between sub and dom/me

If a sub and dom/mes needs are not compatible, or if there is poor communication and understanding about each other's needs, I think defiance becomes a means of communication for the sub. This is by no means an ideal way to communicate, but it sends a clear message to the dom/me -you are not meeting my needs in this relationsihip or you are asking me to do things that i am not comfortable with. In an ideal world, all limits are discussed before any play starts, however, I have had relationships where the sub and I have let the relationship slowly develop over time, without clear limits being set. The relationship consisted of a lot of baby steps and tons of post scene communication to continually reestablish what was good (enjoyable) and what wasn't with boundaries rarely being tested.

2) As an act of manipulation by the sub -

Some subs use definace and as a way of manipulating the Dom/me into allowing them to top from the bottom. Defiance is not an appropriate means to communicate and should be seen as a major warning sign to a dom/me that there is something severely amiss in the relationship.

3) Unclarity around the nature of submission by the sub -

Some subs think or say that want submission, and throw themselves into it out of a mistaken desire that being dominated is their desire. Their defiance comes about when they have trouble accepting and following even simple directions and commands.

4) Poor dom/me-ing (bad direction being given) -

Another reason for defiance could be bad dom/me-ing. By providing directions or commands that go against the established boundaries and limits of the relationship. In this instance, the defiance is a valid way of a sub saying that the dom/me is actually out-of-line. Perhaps it is not the act but the method of communication that causes a negative reaction by the sub. An example of this could be being called a slut or whore during scene play. The subs defiance could be a reaction to the words that they do not want used and not the act they are being asked to perform.

Just some initial thoughts and all of them are up for debate.

I have to say Zipman that the thoughtfulness of your post and the thorough coverage of it has left me speechless. No easy task.

My take on what you have said it this. If a Dom/me is faced with defiance and/or manipulation, Zip has given you several areas where you can examine your actions.

When giving direction, it is imperative that We make sure that the directions are clear. And even if they are clear, we need to revisit them continually to make sure they are still understood and being adhered to.

Also, we must be sure to be ready, willing, and able to take some definite action to prevent things from getting out of hand.

And last, we must be prepareed to release a sub/slave you is continually defiant.

Ebony

 

[Parklife]

Saying that, I have been guilty at times of being "defiant". In my case, my defiance has not been out of headstrongness or disrespect, but out of fear. When this happens, I do not need to be "ordered" or "disciplined" but rather led gently past that fear. If this is done, my defiance or unwillingness, evaporates.

kristy [/B]

I have to agree with Kristy above.. From my perspective the defiance I have has to do with fear, worry, embarrasment, etc.. and while it may come across as defiance, what it really is is an indication of needing something... perhaps words to comfort me, perhaps just a push in the direction, perhaps a show of strength from the Domme so that I can get passed that defiance.

I mean, some acts of defiance (if it can be called that) aren't for any of the negative causes mentioned above but rather stem from the, sometimes, contradictions of being submissive or perhaps i should say coming to grips with your submissive side. Sometimes, though you may crave a direction, it is still difficult to allow that to be expressed.

Park~

 

[Ebonyfire]

I very much believe in direction, and the guidance and discipline to get there. It is a need.

Saying that, I have been guilty at times of being "defiant". In my case, my defiance has not been out of headstrongness or disrespect, but out of fear. When this happens, I do not need to be "ordered" or "disciplined" but rather led gently past that fear. If this is done, my defiance or unwillingness, evaporates.

kristy

Thanks for your insight kristy. In this, male and females can be alike.

A Dom/me really needs to know his or her sub to the point where he or she can use communication to get to the root cause of the apparent defiance.

I say apparent because if the Dom/me has good communication skills, he or she should be able to uncover the fear or uncover a real defiance on the part of the submissive.

Eb

 

[Ebonyfire]

I mean, some acts of defiance (if it can be called that) aren't for any of the negative causes mentioned above but rather stem from the, sometimes, contradictions of being submissive or perhaps i should say coming to grips with your submissive side. Sometimes, though you may crave a direction, it is still difficult to allow that to be expressed.

Park~

A very valid point. However, the point I am trying to make is that there are subs who are defiant, to the point of being blatantly so.

Remember, this is not about every sub. Thanks for your opinions, they are much appreciated.

Eb

 

[zipman]

A very valid point. However, the point I am trying to make is that there are subs who are defiant, to the point of being blatantly so.

Remember, this is not about every sub. Thanks for your opinions, they are much appreciated.

Eb

I agree Eb. While Parklife and Kristydoll make a good point, the distinction is that we are not talking about a one-time act, but a pattern of disobedience and/or questioning that becomes defiance. Especially when it is happening "in scene." Most dom/mes do encourage post-scene communication or other times for a sub to voice their concerns and questions. What Eb and I are talking about is a sub balking at what should be a simple command. I think a lot of subs out there give their submission too freely, not discussing the boundaries they have because in their minds they want to be the perfect sub who submits to whatever their dom/me wants. These subs have not looked inward and identified what makes them tick, what their real limits are, what they truly need from a Dom.

Oh and thanks for the compliment Eb. I left you speechless?

 

[Ebonyfire]

I agree Eb. While Parklife and Kristydoll make a good point, the distinction is that we are not talking about a one-time act, but a pattern of disobedience and/or questioning that becomes defiance. Especially when it is happening "in scene." Most dom/mes do encourage post-scene communication or other times for a sub to voice their concerns and questions. What Eb and I are talking about is a sub balking at what should be a simple command. I think a lot of subs out there give their submission too freely, not discussing the boundaries they have because in their minds they want to be the perfect sub who submits to whatever their dom/me wants. These subs have not looked inward and identified what makes them tick, what their real limits are, what they truly need from a Dom.

Oh and thanks for the compliment Eb. I left you speechless?

You did.

To piggyback, now that I have my speech back, often subs have fantasies of submission, and thoughts of flowers and roses. They do not think that somedays they may not like what they are asked to do. It is easy to submit to your kink. But not so easy to submit when you would rather not.

Fantasy is easy; reality is challenging.

If you believe submission is a gift, then what is it's value if it is a simple task and anyone can do it? The same can be said for Dominance.

Eb

 

[Desdemona]

The term defiance has been bandied about quite a bit during this conversation. I see a huge difference between defiance and occasionally having trouble submitting. I doubt that even the best sub gracefully or easily submits 100% of the times. We've discussed that on other threads.
As you just said, Eb, <snip>

" often subs have fantasies of submission, and thoughts of flowers and roses. They do not think that somedays they may not like what they are asked to do. It is easy to submit to your kink. But not so easy to submit when you would rather not.

Fantasy is easy; reality is challenging. "

So, what is the nature of defiance? I just looked it up in an American Heritage Dictionary. Defiance is 1. The disposition to defy or resist an opposing force or authority; resolute resistance. 2. Intentionally provocative behavior or attitude; a challenge.

By definition, defiance is a pattern of intentional behaviors. Based on this definition, Eb, I'll answer your question: "And subs, how do you justify defying your Master/Mistress. Especially if you know their direction is what you crave? "
My answer must be, there is no justification for this behavior pattern. Patterns of behavior are quite different than occasional or momentary hesitancy or questions for the dominant.

 

[Ebonyfire]

give us a kiss, Des!

My answer must be, there is no justification for this behavior pattern. Patterns of behavior are quite different than occasional or momentary hesitancy or questions for the dominant.

You win the prize (if I had one!) BINGO!

There is no justification.

Eb

 

[Desdemona]

Re: give us a kiss, Des!

You win the prize (if I had one!) BINGO!

There is no justification.

Eb

 

[lorddragonwolf]

just what type of prize would des like?

 

[Desdemona]

just what type of prize would des like?

I'm open to suggestion.