Honesty and Trust

[Hummingbyrd]

Married Doms/Dommes (and subs):

If you lie to your spouse about your involvement in bdsm and thus participate outside your marriage then how is your bdsm partner supposed to trust you?
Isn't your spouse the person that took a vow to trust you above all others? I ask this knowing that different eople have different reasons for their actions, but if a marriage is going to be open, shouldn't both partners agree? If you're lying to your spouse does it really matter to your play buddy that you're honest about lying?

Discuss...

 

[SpencerAlanMacLeod]

Seems to me that you are talking of betrayal here.
Sometimes the concept of betrayal within a scene is very erotic.
I have done some very erotic B.D.S.M. scenes with betrayal as the theme.

However;
I have also been in marriage where the other person said they wanted to play.
In fact, they did not want to be touched, let alone played with.
In the end, this lie was largely responsible for ending a toxic relationship.

So, I'd say that lies are a good way to mess up ones marriage.
(Good for scenes and bad for real time.)

 

[ecstaticsub]

I personally don't lie to my spouse about my extramarital D/s relationship. I can't imagine lying about it, it would be way too difficult to hide.

However, after spending two years as a regular on a wifesharing site I have seen so many ways that marriages work. There are many reasons why people do what they do in a marriage and I have learned not to judge. Without being the husband or wife a person from the outside can not really tell what the dynamics are. If a person lies to their spouse for whatever reason does not mean they will lie to someone else. Some people demand honesty and others don't.

 

[Netzach]

Till you have magically become that person with that spouse and all history and all circumstances identitcal, I don't think it's to you to judge. Obviously you could not play with them - so don't. Things that may seem very "obvious" to you are not to someone else. If they're making a mistake, frankly, it's THEIRS to make. I am very concerned about these people never getting the same safety information the rest of us get from the community simply because we'd rather hand out scarlet A's than accept other people as they are.

As a now retired pro, AND in my personal life I have entered into SM with people who are hiding from spouses. Most of these people are in the process of doing everything they can do. Most of these people are facing down the same prospect I had to face down - that they AND their spouses have changed.

I don't think sexual/personal dissatisfaction is a reasonable way to spend your life. I'm also not going to insist that divorce is the ONLY way that someone should pursue said satisfaction - why SHOULD the wife's world be forever fucked because the husband wants some time next to female feet and she thinks that's crazy?

Some stay married and some don't - but the ones who move on can honestly say "I did everything I could do." Some of these people lied to me, just like some single people did, and some of them never ever lied to me because they understood they didn't have to. If you've never lied about anything in YOUR life to anyone I guess that makes you better.

There's a huge shocking fundamental fallacy in the "if they lie to them they won't tell you the truth..." EVERYONE lies sometimes and tells the truth to other people at other times. There is no such thing as "a liar" or "an honest person" - there is the question you need to ask each time and every time it matters "is this person lying to me now?"

 

[HottieMama]

Till you have magically become that person with that spouse and all history and all circumstances identitcal, I don't think it's to you to judge. Obviously you could not play with them - so don't. Things that may seem very "obvious" to you are not to someone else. If they're making a mistake, frankly, it's THEIRS to make. I am very concerned about these people never getting the same safety information the rest of us get from the community simply because we'd rather hand out scarlet A's than accept other people as they are.

As a now retired pro, AND in my personal life I have entered into SM with people who are hiding from spouses. Most of these people are in the process of doing everything they can do. Most of these people are facing down the same prospect I had to face down - that they AND their spouses have changed.

I don't think sexual/personal dissatisfaction is a reasonable way to spend your life. I'm also not going to insist that divorce is the ONLY way that someone should pursue said satisfaction - why SHOULD the wife's world be forever fucked because the husband wants some time next to female feet and she thinks that's crazy?

Some stay married and some don't - but the ones who move on can honestly say "I did everything I could do." Some of these people lied to me, just like some single people did, and some of them never ever lied to me because they understood they didn't have to. If you've never lied about anything in YOUR life to anyone I guess that makes you better.

There's a huge shocking fundamental fallacy in the "if they lie to them they won't tell you the truth..." EVERYONE lies sometimes and tells the truth to other people at other times. There is no such thing as "a liar" or "an honest person" - there is the question you need to ask each time and every time it matters "is this person lying to me now?"

Yeah that...EXACTLY.

 

[wenchhh]

I think that YOU have no idea what any of our marriages are like, the history, the nuances, and what is between, for instance my husband and myself. I don't understand why you feel the need to judge, and think you should mind your own fucking business and keep your judgements to yourself. "judge not less ye be judged yourselves"
yeah, just my not so humble opinion.

Married Doms/Dommes (and subs):

If you lie to your spouse about your involvement in bdsm and thus participate outside your marriage then how is your bdsm partner supposed to trust you?
Isn't your spouse the person that took a vow to trust you above all others? I ask this knowing that different eople have different reasons for their actions, but if a marriage is going to be open, shouldn't both partners agree? If you're lying to your spouse does it really matter to your play buddy that you're honest about lying?

Discuss...

 

[Hummingbyrd]

I think that YOU have no idea what any of our marriages are like, the history, the nuances, and what is between, for instance my husband and myself. I don't understand why you feel the need to judge, and think you should mind your own fucking business and keep your judgements to yourself. "judge not less ye be judged yourselves"
yeah, just my not so humble opinion.

You know nothing about MY history either.

Since when is asking the question judging anybody? Did it occur to you maybe there is something I'm trying to understand?

 

[pandoravampire]

I think until you have walked a mile in their shoes. You will never really know if it is right or wrong to lie.
Personally, i was one of the people who left. To pursue this. And yes, also one of those that can say, i did everything i possibly could.
But i didnt just up n go. I went through a period of torment, as other married are in, to stay or go, to fess up, or to keep your dirty secret. So i dont judge.

I value honesty. And id prefer someone to tell me they were married. I dont need to be told why they wont tell their partner. That's their business.

But i believe that once i got passed the acceptance of what is basically me. I was a better person for being true to who i believe myself to be. And i cant help wondering if the closet person, wouldnt either?

Im not wanting to involve myself with others that have not gotten to a similar phase of acceptance of bdsm. The acceptance being more important than experience at times.
I dont anticipate playing with anyone, where all have consented. Including the non indulging partner not present. I just prefer things that way for me.

pandoravampire

 

[pandoravampire]

I think until you have walked a mile in their shoes. You will never really know if it is right or wrong to lie.
Personally, i was one of the people who left. To pursue this. And yes, also one of those that can say, i did everything i possibly could.
But i didnt just up n go. I went through a period of torment, as other married are in, to stay or go, to fess up, or to keep your dirty secret. So i dont judge.

I value honesty. And id prefer someone to tell me they were married. I dont need to be told why they wont tell their partner. That's their business.

But i believe that once i got passed the acceptance of what is basically me. I was a better person for being true to who i believe myself to be. And i cant help wondering if the closet person, wouldnt either?

Im not wanting to involve myself with others that have not gotten to a similar phase of acceptance of bdsm. The acceptance being more important than experience at times.
I dont anticipate playing with people doing this on the side, i prefer it where all have consented. Including the non indulging partner not present. I just prefer things that way for me.

pandoravampire

 

[Life_Noir]

How about... there are a lot of aspects to it...
Here's two...

Which is worse.... Trying to lie and pretend to be something you aren't...Or, trying to lie and pretend that you aren't something you are...

But... *shrug* If you will pardon the sheer Geekness of the quote..

"Never trust a traitor, not even one you create."
- Baron Vladimir Harkonnen (Dune)

 

[neonflux]

You know nothing about MY history either.

Since when is asking the question judging anybody? Did it occur to you maybe there is something I'm trying to understand?

Hummingbyrd, perhaps if you explain what is behind the question? (Just a gentle nudge, not a judgment.) I tend to agree with Netz that just because someone might lie to a spouse, doesn't mean that they will be untruthful to a BDSM partner. Our motivations are so complex when it comes to love and sexuality... I would not assume that someone who is not being totally truthful with a spouse would be untruthful with me. On the other hand, outside of the context of a VERY defined relationship (professional comes to mind but I also think it's possible within a non-pro context), I think that lying to a spouse might eventually poison both unless one can completely compartmentalize one's life. I suspect that most of us are not good at that. I am not saying this in a "holier than thou" context, just as a point of info - I cannot lie comfortably to save my soul. Hope that this helps... Neon

 

[Hummingbyrd]

Hummingbyrd, perhaps if you explain what is behind the question? (Just a gentle nudge, not a judgment.) I tend to agree with Netz that just because someone might lie to a spouse, doesn't mean that they will be untruthful to a BDSM partner. Our motivations are so complex when it comes to love and sexuality... I would not assume that someone who is not being totally truthful with a spouse would be untruthful with me. On the other hand, outside of the context of a VERY defined relationship (professional comes to mind but I also think it's possible within a non-pro context), I think that lying to a spouse might eventually poison both unless one can completely compartmentalize one's life. I suspect that most of us are not good at that. I am not saying this in a "holier than thou" context, just as a point of info - I cannot lie comfortably to save my soul. Hope that this helps... Neon

I'm seven months out of an engagement where I was the one constantly lied to. The truth would not have destroyed me the way finding out about the lies did and the implosion destroyed us both. I currently have a Dom that is a good fit for the short term that I am having fun with now. No collar, just exploration, though I do adore him. I have another, who is married but local chatting me up now. I understand his need to look outside his marriage for a physical relationship and I respect it. I'd like to pursue something with this man, but having been on the other side of the lies, I'm struggling.

So I asked the question. Thanks for your kind response.

 

[wenchhh]

Hummingbird, I apologize. Your initial post came across to me as sounding pretty judgemental, and I'm currently in a place where that is the last thing I need. I don't usually lash out at ppl, and I'm sorry you caught the brunt of it. Think I'll go now, and give it to he who deserves it tho shall not be named.

 

[CutieMouse]

I'm seven months out of an engagement where I was the one constantly lied to. The truth would not have destroyed me the way finding out about the lies did and the implosion destroyed us both. I currently have a Dom that is a good fit for the short term that I am having fun with now. No collar, just exploration, though I do adore him. I have another, who is married but local chatting me up now. I understand his need to look outside his marriage for a physical relationship and I respect it. I'd like to pursue something with this man, but having been on the other side of the lies, I'm struggling.

So I asked the question. Thanks for your kind response.

Honest opinion? I wasted way too long in a marriage and an LDR, with men who didn't put me first. I can be open to repeating the situation, and decide it's okay with me to not come first, or I can decide it wasn't good enough, and choose to not discuss a potential relationship, with someone who doesn't meet a simple standard- I. Come. First. I can't presume I will always come first, but if I set my standards high enough, it should increase the odds of it occuring.

You were lied to, and it sounds like it just about destroyed you. You have a decision to make- continue entering into relationships that involve lies, knowing that it has caused damage in the past that you don't wish to repeat, or decide lying is not an option in a man who wants to be with you. That won't guarantee your protection from someone who lies, but it should drastically reduce your odds of being caught in the emotional crossfire.

 

[SunshineLdy]

I love my husband, but I don't trust him. He's set up this relationship from the get go stating that even omissions are a lie, then he does it. So goose, gander etc..., I guess. He must figure either it's not cheating, or I don't know anymore, and am tired of tring to figure out what he's thinking. He's got emails set up for online trysts, one really pisses me off cause he's a widow on that profile. Well, they all piss me off 'cause he didn't feel the need, or safe enough, to tell me about them. I've told him if he wants something, he can ask, at least that way I'll know what he's thinking and IF I can help getting/giving it. Maybe it's he's too young, I almost said that I'm oversensitive, but I'll be damed if I'm making any more excuses for his attitudes, or for him hurting my feelings. Hanging on with bloodied claws atm with this relationship because we have way to much to lose, just wish he'd let me in. He's wonderful, loving, and tells me all the time how much I mean to him, so why doesnt he let me in to share?

 

[Hummingbyrd]

I love my husband, but I don't trust him. He's set up this relationship from the get go stating that even omissions are a lie, then he does it. So goose, gander etc..., I guess. He must figure either it's not cheating, or I don't know anymore, and am tired of tring to figure out what he's thinking. He's got emails set up for online trysts, one really pisses me off cause he's a widow on that profile. Well, they all piss me off 'cause he didn't feel the need, or safe enough, to tell me about them. I've told him if he wants something, he can ask, at least that way I'll know what he's thinking and IF I can help getting/giving it. Maybe it's he's too young, I almost said that I'm oversensitive, but I'll be damed if I'm making any more excuses for his attitudes, or for him hurting my feelings. Hanging on with bloodied claws atm with this relationship because we have way to much to lose, just wish he'd let me in. He's wonderful, loving, and tells me all the time how much I mean to him, so why doesnt he let me in to share?

No, you're not oversensitive. (((((hug to you))))))

 

[Hummingbyrd]

Hummingbird, I apologize. Your initial post came across to me as sounding pretty judgemental, and I'm currently in a place where that is the last thing I need. I don't usually lash out at ppl, and I'm sorry you caught the brunt of it. Think I'll go now, and give it to he who deserves it tho shall not be named.

It ok. I'm sorry if I sounded judgemental --there are no Scarlett Letters being cast here--and I hope whatever you're dealing with sorts itself out.

 

[Hummingbyrd]

Honest opinion? I wasted way too long in a marriage and an LDR, with men who didn't put me first. I can be open to repeating the situation, and decide it's okay with me to not come first, or I can decide it wasn't good enough, and choose to not discuss a potential relationship, with someone who doesn't meet a simple standard- I. Come. First. I can't presume I will always come first, but if I set my standards high enough, it should increase the odds of it occuring.

You were lied to, and it sounds like it just about destroyed you. You have a decision to make- continue entering into relationships that involve lies, knowing that it has caused damage in the past that you don't wish to repeat, or decide lying is not an option in a man who wants to be with you. That won't guarantee your protection from someone who lies, but it should drastically reduce your odds of being caught in the emotional crossfire.

You're right. He does it my way or no-go.

 

[neonflux]

I'm seven months out of an engagement where I was the one constantly lied to. The truth would not have destroyed me the way finding out about the lies did and the implosion destroyed us both. I currently have a Dom that is a good fit for the short term that I am having fun with now. No collar, just exploration, though I do adore him. I have another, who is married but local chatting me up now. I understand his need to look outside his marriage for a physical relationship and I respect it. I'd like to pursue something with this man, but having been on the other side of the lies, I'm struggling.

So I asked the question. Thanks for your kind response.

You're welcome. In response to your elaboration, can I ask what kind of relationship you are hoping for from this married gentleman? And what has he said to you about being married?

I ask because if you were also partnered, for instance to someone who wasn't kinky but supportive of you exploring/expressing your sexuality fully, then I might say go for it, as long as the limits of your relationship with each other are clearly defined. Also, if you are truly fine with only having half a person/commitment, then perhaps. If you are looking for something more, hoping for a strong commitment, then i would be afraid of ending up with only heartbreak...

Neon

 

[FurryFury]

Till you have magically become that person with that spouse and all history and all circumstances identitcal, I don't think it's to you to judge. Obviously you could not play with them - so don't. Things that may seem very "obvious" to you are not to someone else. If they're making a mistake, frankly, it's THEIRS to make. I am very concerned about these people never getting the same safety information the rest of us get from the community simply because we'd rather hand out scarlet A's than accept other people as they are.

As a now retired pro, AND in my personal life I have entered into SM with people who are hiding from spouses. Most of these people are in the process of doing everything they can do. Most of these people are facing down the same prospect I had to face down - that they AND their spouses have changed.

I don't think sexual/personal dissatisfaction is a reasonable way to spend your life. I'm also not going to insist that divorce is the ONLY way that someone should pursue said satisfaction - why SHOULD the wife's world be forever fucked because the husband wants some time next to female feet and she thinks that's crazy?

Some stay married and some don't - but the ones who move on can honestly say "I did everything I could do." Some of these people lied to me, just like some single people did, and some of them never ever lied to me because they understood they didn't have to. If you've never lied about anything in YOUR life to anyone I guess that makes you better.

There's a huge shocking fundamental fallacy in the "if they lie to them they won't tell you the truth..." EVERYONE lies sometimes and tells the truth to other people at other times. There is no such thing as "a liar" or "an honest person" - there is the question you need to ask each time and every time it matters "is this person lying to me now?"

Netzach,

Your consistently wonderful posts which strip the bullshit from things and show humanity are just one reason why I love you! Have I mentioned that lately?

 

[GentleSub_Ivy]

People keep quoting this post because it is so damn good. Thank you Netz. I've only explored D/s online. I have a hard enough time lying to my husband about that. I don't think I could do it in R/l without first letting him go. I'm in that tormenting myself period that some others have mentioned. Is this really me? Do I really want this? Because I know he sure doesn't. I can't just walk out on my marriage until I truly know the answers to those questions. It's never black and white. I take my marriage seriously but I also realize that I have changed while he has stayed the same and that is a hard one to explain to someone who adores you. When I figure my shit out then I can explain said shit to him.

Good questions by the way. I appreciate your honesty of your situation.

Ivy

Till you have magically become that person with that spouse and all history and all circumstances identitcal, I don't think it's to you to judge. Obviously you could not play with them - so don't. Things that may seem very "obvious" to you are not to someone else. If they're making a mistake, frankly, it's THEIRS to make. I am very concerned about these people never getting the same safety information the rest of us get from the community simply because we'd rather hand out scarlet A's than accept other people as they are.

As a now retired pro, AND in my personal life I have entered into SM with people who are hiding from spouses. Most of these people are in the process of doing everything they can do. Most of these people are facing down the same prospect I had to face down - that they AND their spouses have changed.

I don't think sexual/personal dissatisfaction is a reasonable way to spend your life. I'm also not going to insist that divorce is the ONLY way that someone should pursue said satisfaction - why SHOULD the wife's world be forever fucked because the husband wants some time next to female feet and she thinks that's crazy?

Some stay married and some don't - but the ones who move on can honestly say "I did everything I could do." Some of these people lied to me, just like some single people did, and some of them never ever lied to me because they understood they didn't have to. If you've never lied about anything in YOUR life to anyone I guess that makes you better.

There's a huge shocking fundamental fallacy in the "if they lie to them they won't tell you the truth..." EVERYONE lies sometimes and tells the truth to other people at other times. There is no such thing as "a liar" or "an honest person" - there is the question you need to ask each time and every time it matters "is this person lying to me now?"