Homosexuality/ Cardinal Ratzinger

Is the homosexual lifestyle 'intrinsically disordered' (against nature) and depraved

  • Yes, though compassion must be shown to individuals afflicted

    Votes: 3 6.7%
  • Yes, mostly, much of the time

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • No, definitely not.

    Votes: 36 80.0%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 5 11.1%

  • Total voters
    45
  • Poll closed .

Pure

Fiel a Verdad
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Posts
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The homosexual lifestyle is 'intrinsically disordered' (against nature) and depraved (morally corrupt), as stated by Cardinal Ratzinger (with the blessing of Pope JP II)?

Do you agree?
Cardinal Ratzingers views on homosexuality are well known, see below. It is 'objectively disordered' and depraved. (we shall leave aside the question of legal or church recognition of homosexual unions, which of course he opposed.)

His actions , as head of a tribunal to establish doctrinal purity, to enforce his views include silencing or expulsion of all who persist in disagreement, even as regards any ministry which involves teaching tolerance or 'moral equivalence' to gay persons, see chronology, below.

{Official RCC position}

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS TO GIVE LEGAL
RECOGNITION TO UNIONS BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS

{Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect}

INTRODUCTION
1. In recent years, various questions relating to homosexuality have been addressed with some frequency by Pope John Paul II and by the relevant Dicasteries of the Holy See.(1) Homosexuality is a troubling moral and social phenomenon, even in those countries where it does not present significant legal issues. It gives rise to greater concern in those countries that have granted or intend to grant – legal recognition to homosexual unions, which may include the possibility of adopting children.

The present Considerations do not contain new doctrinal elements; they seek rather to reiterate the essential points on this question and provide arguments drawn from reason which could be used by Bishops in preparing more specific interventions, appropriate to the different situations throughout the world, aimed at protecting and promoting the dignity of marriage, the foundation of the family, and the stability of society, of which this institution is a constitutive element.

The present Considerations are also intended to give direction to Catholic politicians by indicating the approaches to proposed legislation in this area which would be consistent with Christian conscience.(2) Since this question relates to the natural moral law, the arguments that follow are addressed not only to those who believe in Christ, but to all persons committed to promoting and defending the common good of society.

I. THE NATURE OF MARRIAGE AND ITS INALIENABLE CHARACTERISTICS

2. The Church's teaching on marriage and on the complementarity of the sexes reiterates a truth that is evident to right reason and recognized as such by all the major cultures of the world. Marriage is not just any relationship between human beings. It was established by the Creator with its own nature, essential properties and purpose.(3) No ideology can erase from the human spirit the certainty that marriage exists solely between a man and a woman, who by mutual personal gift, proper and exclusive to themselves, tend toward the communion of their persons. In this way, they mutually perfect each other, in order to cooperate with God in the procreation and upbringing of new human lives.

3. The natural truth about marriage was confirmed by the Revelation contained in the biblical accounts of creation, an expression also of the original human wisdom, in which the voice of nature itself is heard. There are three fundamental elements of the Creator's plan for marriage, as narrated in the Book of Genesis.

In the first place, man, the image of God, was created “male and female” (Gen 1:27). Men and women are equal as persons and complementary as male and female. Sexuality is something that pertains to the physical-biological realm and has also been raised to a new level – the personal level – where nature and spirit are united.
Marriage is instituted by the Creator as a form of life in which a communion of persons is realized involving the use of the sexual faculty. “That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife and they become one flesh” (Gen 2:24).

Third, God has willed to give the union of man and woman a special participation in his work of creation. Thus, he blessed the man and the woman with the words “Be fruitful and multiply” (Gen 1:28). Therefore, in the Creator's plan, sexual complementarity and fruitfulness belong to the very nature of marriage.

Furthermore, the marital union of man and woman has been elevated by Christ to the dignity of a sacrament. The Church teaches that Christian marriage is an efficacious sign of the covenant between Christ and the Church (cf. Eph 5:32). This Christian meaning of marriage, far from diminishing the profoundly human value of the marital union between man and woman, confirms and strengthens it (cf. Mt 19:3-12; Mk 10:6-9).

4. There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God's plan for marriage and family. Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law. Homosexual acts “close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved”.(4)
Sacred Scripture condemns homosexual acts “as a serious depravity... (cf. Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10).

This judgment of Scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered”.(5) This same moral judgment is found in many Christian writers of the first centuries(6) and is unanimously accepted by Catholic Tradition.
=====

Milestones in campaign to hold the doctrinal line - history of priests who have been punished for their incomplete teaching of the Catholic Church's opinion about homosexuality - Brief Article
National Catholic Reporter, July 30, 1999 by John L. Allen, Jr.

The lifetime ban on pastoral work imposed upon Salvatorian Fr. Robert Nugent and School Sister of Notre Dame Jeannine Gramick by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger is the latest step in an effort by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to prevent evolution in church teaching toward acceptance of homosexual conduct. A review of key moments:

MAY 1984: Ratzinger orders the imprimatur lifted from Sexual Morality by Fr. Philip S. Keane, published in 1977 by Paulist Press. Keane argues that homosexual conduct cannot be understood as "absolutely immoral."

SEPTEMBER 1985: Archbishop Raymond Hunthausen in Seattle announces that he has transferred final authority in five areas, including the pastoral care of homosexuals, to Auxiliary Bishop Donald Wuerl in accord with Vatican instructions. The action follows a written critique by Ratzinger, citing, among other flaws, Hunthausen's decision in 1983 to permit a Mass for Dignity, a Catholic homosexual group, in his cathedral.

OCTOBER 1986: Ratzinger publishes a document titled "On The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons." The letter warns of "deceitful propaganda" from pro-homosexual groups. It instructs bishops not to accept groups that "seek to undermine the teaching of the church, which are ambiguous about it, or which neglect it entirely." The letter refers to homosexual orientation as an "intrinsic moral evil." In the wake of the letter, many Catholic bishops bar Dignity from using church facilities.

OCTOBER 1986: Acting on instructions from Ratzinger, the head of the Jesuit order informs Jesuit Fr. John McNeill that he must either abandon pastoral ministry with homosexuals or be expelled from the order. McNeill chooses not to give up his work. McNeill had been silenced by the Vatican in 1977 for his book The Church and The Homosexual, which argued that stable homosexual relationships should be judged by the same moral criteria as heterosexual relationships. The book was originally published with the permission of McNeill's Jesuit superiors.

NOVEMBER 1986: Ratzinger directs Bishop Matthew Clark of the Rochester, N.Y., diocese to remove the imprimatur from Parents Talk Love: The Catholic Family Handbook About Sexuality, written by a priest and a high school teacher. According to the priest, Ratzinger objects to the lack of a clear condemnation of homosexual conduct.

JANUARY 1987: After prolonged debate, The Catholic University of America fires Fr. Charles Curran, a moral theologian known for his dissent from official church teaching on sexual ethics. On homosexuality, Curran has written: "Homosexual acts in the context of a loving relationship that strives for permanency can in a certain sense be objectively morally acceptable."

DECEMBER 1988: Dominican Fr. Matthew Fox is silenced by Ratzinger, citing his failure to condemn homosexuality, among a host of other issues. Fox is expelled from the Dominican order in 1992.

FEBRUARY 1992: Canadian theologian Fr. Andrew Guindon is notified that he is under investigation by the doctrinal congregation for his book The Sexual Creators. Ratzinger demands that he clarify his views on homosexuality, birth control and premarital sex. Ratzinger's 13-page critique is published in L'Osservatore Romano, the official Vatican newspaper.

JULY 1992: Ratzinger sends a letter to the U.S. bishops supporting legal discrimination against homosexuals in certain areas: adoption rights, the hiring of gays as teachers or coaches, and the prohibition of gays in the military. In such situations, Ratzinger writes, "it is not unjust discrimination to take sexual orientation into account."

NOVEMBER 1992: The new Catechism of the Catholic Church is published. Though the text acknowledges that homosexual persons "do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial," and forbids any disrespect or failure of compassion for homosexuals, the Catechism repeats the position that the homosexual orientation is "intrinsically disordered."

DECEMBER 1996: Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, secretary of the doctrinal congregation, publishes an article in L'Osservatore Romano asserting that certain church teachings must be considered infallible even in the absence of a formal declaration to that effect. The bans on homosexuality and contraception are among the teachings mentioned by Bertone.

FEBRUARY 1997: Following a warning to the Society of St. Paul from Ratzinger, the Vatican imposes a new leader on the order. The Paulines' flagship publication, Famiglia Cristiana, published an article in 1996 suggesting that parents should not force their moral views on a gay child. Bishop Antonio Buoncristiani is appointed the society's temporary leader and charged with ensuring that Pauline publications better reflect church teaching.

JULY 1998: The Committee on Marriage and Family of the U.S. bishops' conference re-issues its letter to parents of homosexuals, "Always Our Children," after making several changes demanded by Ratzinger. They include referring to homosexuality as a "deep-seated" rather than "fundamental" dimension of personality; suggesting that homosexual acts by adolescents may not indicate a homosexual orientation; adding a footnote describing homosexuality as "objectively disordered," and deleting a passage that encourages use of terms such as homosexual, gay and lesbian from the pulpit in order to "give people permission" to discuss homosexuality.[my emphasis, pure]

SEPTEMBER 1998: Clark removes Fr. James Callan from his position as pastor of Rochester's Corpus Christi Parish. Callan asserts that Clark is acting under pressure from Ratzinger. Among other things, Callan is criticized for blessing same-sex unions.

DECEMBER 1998: Ratzinger, other curial officials and a group of Australian bishops put out a document citing problems in the Australian church resulting from a "worldwide crisis of faith." Among other deviations, the document cites a moral view in which "heterosexuality and homosexuality come to be seen as simply two morally equivalent variations."

COPYRIGHT 1999 National Catholic Reporter
COPYRIGHT 2000 Gale Group
 
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Nothing that increases the amount of love, goodwill, and caring on earth is "against nature."

Bending people to one's arbitrary will, however, is.
 
Homosexuality is unnatural and depraved and worthy of staements and political activism to prevent it.

Pedophilia is normal, something we should heal within the flock and obviously not something we should say much about.

So, I go down on a conscenting adult woman, with the intent of bringng her pleasure and I am depraved, worthy of being villifeid and lobbied against.

A priest abuses a child and he needs to be moved to a different parrish and the attack covered up, in the name of healing?

And they wonder why there was a reformation :rolleyes:
 
Pure said:
Do you agree?
I agree that homosexuality is objectively disordered and a deviation from the natural order. I also agree with Imp's assertion.

I also note with appreciation the incremental softening of Cardinal Ratzinger's approach to the subject as time goes by.
 
Hi Lauren,

LH: //I agree that homosexuality is objectively disordered and a deviation from the natural order. //

Any evidence of this? (please do not just cite St. Paul, Aquinas, popes, etc.)

May I take it you don't agree about the 'depravity' or moral corruption part?

If you don't, mightn't it be that you've become too depraved to properly evaluate the situation? :) (Sorta like Colleen ;) )
 
Pure said:
Hi Lauren,

LH: //I agree that homosexuality is objectively disordered and a deviation from the natural order. //

Any evidence of this? (please do not just cite St. Paul, Aquinas, popes, etc.)

May I take it you don't agree about the 'depravity' or moral corruption part?

If you don't, mightn't it be that you've become too depraved to properly evaluate the situation? :) (Sorta like Colleen ;) )


LOL,

Smarty-aleck :)
 
Pure said:
Any evidence of this?
Any evidence? LOL

There are relatively strong biological evidences that the natural order - the way by which the species is perpetuated - is through male-female unions. ;)

I don't believe that saying homosexuality is a deviation (or perversion) of the natural order is disputable. At least I don't dispute it, and I've been involved in an homosexual relationship for over three years.

Do I believe that "perversion of the natural order" equates with "moral perversion"? No, I don't.
 
From the Letter of Cardinal Ratzinger, cited by Black S.

a representative excerpt from Ratzinger's Letter on Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons, for those with limited time:

[start]

There is an effort in some countries to manipulate the Church by gaining the often well-intentioned support of her pastors with a view to changing civil-statutes and laws. This is done in order to conform to these pressure groups' concept that homosexuality is at least a completely harmless, if not an entirely good, thing. Even when the practice of homosexuality may seriously threaten the lives and well-being of a large number of people, its advocates remain undeterred and refuse to consider the magnitude of the risks involved.

The Church can never be so callous. It is true that her clear position cannot be revised by pressure from civil legislation or the trend of the moment. But she is really concerned about the many who are not represented by the pro-homosexual movement and about those who may have been tempted to believe its deceitful propaganda.

She is also aware that the view that homosexual activity is equivalent to, or as acceptable as, the sexual expression of conjugal love has a direct impact on society's understanding of the nature and rights of the family and puts them in jeopardy.

10. It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.

But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase.

11. It has been argued that the homosexual orientation in certain cases is not the result of deliberate choice; and so the homosexual person would then have no choice but to behave in a homosexual fashion. Lacking freedom, such a person, even if engaged in homosexual activity, would not be culpable.

Here, the Church's wise moral tradition is necessary since it warns against generalizations in judging individual cases. In fact, circumstances may exist, or may have existed in the past, which would reduce or remove the culpability of the individual in a given instance; or other circumstances may increase it. What is at all costs to be avoided is the unfounded and demeaning assumption that the sexual behaviour of homosexual persons is always and totally compulsive and therefore inculpable. What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well. As in every conversion from evil, the abandonment of homosexual activity will require a profound collaboration of the individual with God's liberating grace.

12. What, then, are homosexual persons to do who seek to follow the Lord? Fundamentally, they are called to enact the will of God in their life by joining whatever sufferings and difficulties they experience in virtue of their condition to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross. That Cross, for the believer, is a fruitful sacrifice since from that death come life and redemption. While any call to carry the cross or to understand a Christian's suffering in this way will predictably be met with bitter ridicule by some, it should be remembered that this is the way to eternal life for all who follow Christ.

It is, in effect, none other than the teaching of Paul the Apostle to the Galatians when he says that the Spirit produces in the lives of the faithful "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, trustfulness, gentleness and self-control" (5:22) and further (v. 24), "You cannot belong to Christ unless you crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires."

It is easily misunderstood, however, if it is merely seen as a pointless effort at self-denial. The Cross is a denial of self, but in service to the will of God himself who makes life come from death and empowers those who trust in him to practise virtue in place of vice.

To celebrate the Paschal Mystery, it is necessary to let that Mystery become imprinted in the fabric of daily life. To refuse to sacrifice one's own will in obedience to the will of the Lord is effectively to prevent salvation. Just as the Cross was central to the expression of God's redemptive love for us in Jesus, so the conformity of the self-denial of homosexual men and women with the sacrifice of the Lord will constitute for them a source of self-giving which will save them from a way of life which constantly threatens to destroy them.

Christians who are homosexual are called, as all of us are, to a chaste life. As they dedicate their lives to understanding the nature of God's personal call to them, they will be able to celebrate the Sacrament of Penance more faithfully and receive the Lord's grace so freely offered there in order to convert their lives more fully to his Way.

13. We recognize, of course, that in great measure the clear and successful communication of the Church's teaching to all the faithful, and to society at large, depends on the correct instruction and fidelity of her pastoral ministers. The Bishops have the particularly grave responsibility to see to it that their assistants in the ministry, above all the priests, are rightly informed and personally disposed to bring the teaching of the Church in its integrity to everyone.

The characteristic concern and good will exhibited by many clergy and religious in their pastoral care for homosexual persons is admirable, and, we hope, will not diminish. Such devoted ministers should have the confidence that they are faithfully following the will of the Lord by encouraging the homosexual person to lead a chaste life and by affirming that person's God-given dignity and worth.

14. With this in mind, this Congregation wishes to ask the Bishops to be especially cautious of any programmes which may seek to pressure the Church to change her teaching, even while claiming not to do so. A careful examination of their public statements and the activities they promote reveals a studied ambiguity by which they attempt to mislead the pastors and the faithful.

For example, they may present the teaching of the Magisterium, but only as if it were an optional source for the formation of one's conscience. Its specific authority is not recognized. Some of these groups will use the word "Catholic" to describe either the organization or its intended members, yet they do not defend and promote the teaching of the Magisterium; indeed, they even openly attack it. While their members may claim a desire to conform their lives to the teaching of Jesus, in fact they abandon the teaching of his Church. This contradictory action should not have the support of the Bishops in any way.

15. We encourage the Bishops, then, to provide pastoral care in full accord with the teaching of the Church for homosexual persons of their dioceses. No authentic pastoral programme will include organizations in which homosexual persons associate with each other without clearly stating that homosexual activity is immoral. A truly pastoral approach will appreciate the need for homosexual persons to avoid the near occasions of sin.

We would heartily encourage programmes where these dangers are avoided. But we wish to make it clear that departure from the Church's teaching, or silence about it, in an effort to provide pastoral care is neither caring nor pastoral. Only what is true can ultimately be pastoral. The neglect of the Church's position prevents homosexual men and women from receiving the care they need and deserve.

An authentic pastoral programme will assist homosexual persons at all levels of the spiritual life: through the sacraments, and in particular through the frequent and sincere use of the sacrament of Reconciliation, through prayer, witness, counsel and individual care. In such a way, the entire Christian community can come to recognize its own call to assist its brothers and sisters, without deluding them or isolating them.

[end excerpts] [[my highlighting]]
 
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On an only slightly tangential subject, I would like to point out that Cardinal Ratzinger's positions should always be put into the context of him being Prefect of the Holy Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. His job was, objectively, to be a conservative. ;)
 
Lauren Hynde said:
On an only slightly tangential subject, I would like to point out that Cardinal Ratzinger's positions should always be put into the context of him being Prefect of the Holy Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. His job was, objectively, to be a conservative. ;)


It should also be noted the Pope is infallible in matters of Dogma. Echoing John Paul's position isn't just good form, it's a tennet of your faith. It isn't like he had great leeway to shape dogma, he simply had the job of presenting and defending it.
 
Lauren said,

LH: There are relatively strong biological evidences that the natural order - the way by which the species is perpetuated - is through male-female unions.

The species, thus far, is perpetuated through heterosexual intercourse.

But is there any reason to think that 'the natural order' or 'nature' is solely constituted of acts related to procreation?

Do I believe that "perversion of the natural order" equates with "moral perversion"? No, I don't.

So why do you choose to pervert the natural order? (Please don't say you can't help it-- note point 11, above!) Get on with the business of procreation and cut out the distractions of poetry! ;)

---
Note to Colly:

Dont'ya know that pussies are made for penile insertions, not licking!!

Where would *you* be if your mom had stuck to getting a good licking??

:)

Further note to Colly:

It should also be noted the Pope is infallible in matters of Dogma. Echoing John Paul's position isn't just good form, it's a tenet of your faith. It isn't like he had great leeway to shape dogma, he simply had the job of presenting and defending it.

Ratzinger was and is a skilled, trained theologian with university teaching background. He was chosen by JP II, early on in JP's reign to be head of the highest tribunal defending the faith. I believe he 'had leeway to shape dogma' insofar as he, if anyone, had the Pope's ear. There is no reason to disbelieve in *mutual* influence. So do not I think it's accurate to suggest, he merely did his job of presenting dogma:
I believe he loved the job--held for more than 20 years--, took to it, shaped it, and through it, expressed his beliefs.
 
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Pure said:
Lauren said,

LH: There are relatively strong biological evidences that the natural order - the way by which the species is perpetuated - is through male-female unions.

The species, thus far, is perpetuated through heterosexual intercourse.

But is there any reason to think that 'the natural order' or 'nature' is solely constituted of acts related to procreation?

Do I believe that "perversion of the natural order" equates with "moral perversion"? No, I don't.

So why do you choose to pervert the natural order? (Please don't say you can't help it-- note point 11, above!) Get on with the business of procreation and cut out the distractions of poetry! ;)

---
Note to Colly:

Dont'ya know that pussies are made for penile insertions, not licking!!

Where would *you* be if your mom had stuck to getting a good licking??

:)


Pffft.

Insertion is fun, but pussy is made for tasteing, teasing and making quiver.

:p
 
Colleen Thomas said:
It should also be noted the Pope is infallible in matters of Dogma.

When he speaks ex cathedra. That doesn't actually happen all that often.

Lauren Hynde said:
Any evidence? LOL

There are relatively strong biological evidences that the natural order - the way by which the species is perpetuated - is through male-female unions. ;)

I don't believe that saying homosexuality is a deviation (or perversion) of the natural order is disputable. At least I don't dispute it, and I've been involved in an homosexual relationship for over three years.

Do I believe that "perversion of the natural order" equates with "moral perversion"? No, I don't.

Hmmm. I'm curious to know what you make of homosexual behavior in animals. It seems something of an argument against unnaturalness or homosexuality as a purely socially constructed issue.
 
Pure said:
The species, thus far, is perpetuated through heterosexual intercourse.

But is there any reason to think that 'the natural order' or 'nature' is solely constituted of acts related to procreation?
No, of course not. But procriation is an intrinsic part of 'the natural order'. As I said on another thread, homosexuality, BDSM, cross-dressing, celibacy, listening to disco music, are all deviations from the norm, are all perversions of the natural order.

Pure said:
So why do you choose to pervert the natural order?
Because there is more to the natural order than to procriate. If I have to deviate from the norm to fulfill those other components of "the natural order", I will.
 
BlackShanglan said:
Hmmm. I'm curious to know what you make of homosexual behavior in animals. It seems something of an argument against unnaturalness or homosexuality as a purely socially constructed issue.
I think my previous post responds to that. ;)
 
Lauren said,

As I said on another thread, homosexuality, BDSM, cross-dressing, celibacy, listening to disco music, are all deviations from the norm, are all perversions of the natural order.

As is cutting your hair, or using an umbrella, or posting to Literotica!

What I don't get, Lauren, why--against what you say, above--celibacy is not considered (by the RCC)--'against the order of nature.'

Your position above is closer to the Jewish position re celibacy; it's distrusted and frowned upon. And the scandals discussed here and elsewhere suggest that, while it may be possible for some, it --at best--is not really conducive to the psychological health, for many. (Can't thumb yer nose at Mother Nature!)
 
Pure said:
As is cutting your hair, or using an umbrella, or posting to Literotica!
Not necessarily. I'm pretty sure that doing what you can to feel good with yourself and attractive to others (by cutting my hair), seeking shelter or protection from aggressive elements (by using an umbrella), or seeking relief from routine-inflicted stress (by posting to Literotica) are well within "the natural order", don't deny in themselves any other natural order precepts, and are quite transversal to the animal kingdom. ;)

Pure said:
Your position above is closer to the Jewish position re celibacy; it's distrusted and frowned upon. And the scandals discussed here and elsewhere suggest that, while it may be possible for some, it --at best--is not really conducive to the psychological health, for many. (Can't thumb yer nose at Mother Nature!)
Not at all. I said that I don't equate "perversion of the natural order" with "moral perversion".

Celibacy is a deviation from the norm, but it's not frown upon by the Church because it is undertaken by those who choose to pervert the order of nature in the belief that it will bring them closer to God. It is a sacrifice they make, a liberation from earthly concerns and carnal urges, for the benefit of their community.

My reasons to deviate from the norm are far more selfish. I do it in search of personal sexual gratification and in the pursue of happiness. My community has nothing to do with it (except for there being one less female to perpetuate the species, albeit a happier one).

***

Edited to add that your hint at linking celibacy with the sexual abuse cases is very, very far from being sound. ;)
 
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Why should anyone care what the card/pope thinks? Why should anyone care what he says?

Why should anyone care what anyone else deeply believes?

Is everyone entitled to his own belief, whether that means angels or virgins after death?

Is it a natural right to maintain, create, or even share your own delusions with others?

Is there some natural law that requires one to follow anyone else's orders?

In what way will you be influenced, or how will your life change based on my answer to the poll question posed here?

On the other side of things, is it OK for one to seek non-self-delusion as a way of life?
 
Lauren Hynde said:
My reasons to deviate from the norm are far more selfish.

Oh, hell. I do it to get closer to *my* god. :D It's a religious endeavor every bit as valid as celibacy.
 
LH:My reasons to deviate from the norm are far more selfish. I do it in search of personal sexual gratification and in the pursuit of happiness.

My community has nothing to do with it (except for there being one less female to perpetuate the species, albeit a happier one).


Well, _selfish pursuits_, particularly of sexual pleasure, are persistently denounced by JP II and Ratzinger: they are outside the sphere of morality and the moral authority of the Church. That you voluntarily place yourself there will, as they say, have 'grave consequences.'

Part of the denunciation of homosexual practices comes from their personal and pleasure focus, deviating from full procreative participation in the community of believers, those in the RCC. In other words, I believe the suggestion is that homosexual lifestyle is inherently more selfish.

How can one even discuss morality with someone pledged to the pagan gods of hedonism?

Next you'll be saying there's nothing wrong with playing with your own genitals, instead of using them for God and Nature's appointed task!
 
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Pure said:
Next you'll be saying there's nothing wrong with playing with your own genitals, instead of using them for God and Nature's appointed task!

What happens when you're FINISHED using them for the appointed task? Mission accomplished. Genital retirement?
 
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