Higher education in decline

[linuxgeek]

I agree and disagree. Is that obtuse enough?

There is a part of learning that is by rote. Certain basic priciples that are used as tools for later problem solving. Knowing how to divide up a bushel of apples is of little use if you can't add, subtract, multiply, or divide. Spelling is another subject that is learned more by rote. Punctuation, etc. Like having a hammer and saw before you start a carpentry project.

Testing is the only means we have to determine whether an individual has reached a certain level of competence or not. It is a measure of both the student and the teacher.

Teaching the test has always been the norm. To the point of being ridiculous, I don't think anyone should expect a test concerning nuclear shell energy levels in a contemporary literature class.

I understand your point here. But I believe education is a series of steps. Provide the tools, show how they're used, repeat. Then introduce problems and show how a few are solved. Then test problem solving. There is also the argument that 'problem solving' should be tested seperately. I think there's some validitiy to that argument.

Ishmael

yeah. Something * said later in thread I think is what bugs me with the standardized testing (FCAT) as the only test the FL seems to be looking at for promotion & graduation. To pass a standarized test, you don't really have to know a thing. You can just be good at taking tests. On the flipside, a highly intelligent person can bomb the test because they don't do them well or happens to be a person who vaporlocks when any test is put before him/her.

 

[linuxgeek]

Sure we could. If we knew what the students were going to be asked to compare, and how those 2 pieces would present the information....... but we don't.

ok. Not working in the K-12 system, myself, I'll take your word on it.

Any reply to my first 2 questions of that post?

 

[sigh]

You're having fun with this. I wonder how many are getting it?

Ishmael

Hon, he's about as subtle as a truck driving through your bedroom. I think most of it have gotten it by now.

We think he's wrong, of course, but we do get it.

 

[Ishmael]

yeah. Something * said later in thread I think is what bugs me with the standardized testing (FCAT) as the only test the FL seems to be looking at for promotion & graduation. To pass a standarized test, you don't really have to know a thing. You can just be good at taking tests. On the flipside, a highly intelligent person can bomb the test because they don't do them well or happens to be a person who vaporlocks when any test is put before him/her.

Let's start with the FCAT. WIthout going into the particular merits or demerits of the test I think that it's highly misunderstood in it's application. The test changes in it's particulars every year and, so I've been told, even within the year from district to district. As such the test tests skills, not the ability to memorize specific answers. Isn't that the direction we would want to go?

As far as test taking ability, I have to agree. I do exceptionally well on 'multipule guess' tests. Even those which I know little of the subject material. It's a gift. And I know that some people 'choke' on tests. Those people need help of a different sort. It indicates a problem with their ability to handle stress of pressure situations. An observant instructor would see this and reccomend some specific action be taken. Regardless, I don't think the individual should be 'passed on' until these deficiencies are corrected.

The bottom line is that the public is paying a great deal of $$$ for education. I don't think it's unreasonable for the public to demand some demonstration of a return on the investment.

In reality there should be three classes of schools. One for the truly gifted, one for the average, and a third type of school that specializes in 'technical' skills. Skilled tradesmen are always in demand and we, as a society, have to face up to the fact that not every child is an academic.

Now back to higher education. Once a young person is in college they're faced with an entirely different paradigm. One that few are prepared for. The college professor really doesn't give a shit if you do your homework or not. They could care less if you pass or not. There is NO mandate for you to be there and there is NO mandate that they actually teach you anything. Those professors that do, generally do so out of professional pride. However, this is in conflict with administration goals. Afterall, you can't collect tuition from a student you've flunked out.

This in turn as led to a series of majors, as I see them, that are academically unchallenging and are readily mastered by even those least likely to be in an institution of higher learning to begin with. Most of the Education and Sociology majors fall into this category. (Like all else, the student population is on a 2-sigma curve and there are outstanding exceptions, but it's the mean that is taught to.) All of these courses represent a revenue source to the administration and as long as students are enrolling and paying their fees, well, those courses will exist. In many cases the fact that these courses exist have more to do with marketing than any real academic value. (The old joke about the Univ. of Miami and 'underwater basket weaving' was not without some merit.)

Follow the money linux, it leads you to the truth more often than not.

Ishmael

 

[linuxgeek]

Let's start with the FCAT. WIthout going into the particular merits or demerits of the test I think that it's highly misunderstood in it's application. The test changes in it's particulars every year and, so I've been told, even within the year from district to district. As such the test tests skills, not the ability to memorize specific answers. Isn't that the direction we would want to go?

As far as test taking ability, I have to agree. I do exceptionally well on 'multipule guess' tests. Even those which I know little of the subject material. It's a gift. And I know that some people 'choke' on tests. Those people need help of a different sort. It indicates a problem with their ability to handle stress of pressure situations. An observant instructor would see this and reccomend some specific action be taken. Regardless, I don't think the individual should be 'passed on' until these deficiencies are corrected.

The bottom line is that the public is paying a great deal of $$$ for education. I don't think it's unreasonable for the public to demand some demonstration of a return on the investment.

In reality there should be three classes of schools. One for the truly gifted, one for the average, and a third type of school that specializes in 'technical' skills. Skilled tradesmen are always in demand and we, as a society, have to face up to the fact that not every child is an academic.

I can see the FCAT as a base line measure of the academic K-12 pulse. I think there should be something better. I just know to not expect it with the way FL historically has underfunded education. Kinda difficult to fund education well with a vast amount of the funding since '87-'88 coming from a tax on people with poor math skills or willing to put hundreds of dollars into the hope their 6 numbers will come up.

With the magnet schools, would seem at least 2 of the three you suggest are active.

Now back to higher education. Once a young person is in college they're faced with an entirely different paradigm. One that few are prepared for. The college professor really doesn't give a shit if you do your homework or not. They could care less if you pass or not. There is NO mandate for you to be there and there is NO mandate that they actually teach you anything. Those professors that do, generally do so out of professional pride. However, this is in conflict with administration goals. Afterall, you can't collect tuition from a student you've flunked out.

This in turn as led to a series of majors, as I see them, that are academically unchallenging and are readily mastered by even those least likely to be in an institution of higher learning to begin with. Most of the Education and Sociology majors fall into this category. (Like all else, the student population is on a 2-sigma curve and there are outstanding exceptions, but it's the mean that is taught to.) All of these courses represent a revenue source to the administration and as long as students are enrolling and paying their fees, well, those courses will exist. In many cases the fact that these courses exist have more to do with marketing than any real academic value. (The old joke about the Univ. of Miami and 'underwater basket weaving' was not without some merit.)

Follow the money linux, it leads you to the truth more often than not.

Ishmael

yeah, FL universities main consern even before the regovernace was money. Every prof is expected to be engaged in research which will bring some form of money into the university. I know a couple profs who teach because it is what they love to do, but were put on forced sabatical from teaching and told to research or else.

 

[Ishmael]

I can see the FCAT as a base line measure of the academic K-12 pulse. I think there should be something better. I just know to not expect it with the way FL historically has underfunded education. Kinda difficult to fund education well with a vast amount of the funding since '87-'88 coming from a tax on people with poor math skills or willing to put hundreds of dollars into the hope their 6 numbers will come up.

With the magnet schools, would seem at least 2 of the three you suggest are active.



yeah, FL universities main consern even before the regovernace was money. Every prof is expected to be engaged in research which will bring some form of money into the university. I know a couple profs who teach because it is what they love to do, but were put on forced sabatical from teaching and told to research or else.

Define underfunding.

The fact still remains that nationally SAT scores are inversely proportional to the $$$ spent per student.

Ishmael

 

[sigh]

Follow the money linux, it leads you to the truth more often than not.

But the money in higher education for the most part doesn't come from tuition. It comes from private donations (usually to build something to name after the donor) and from grants, from the government and from private industry, for doing research. That research money (at least the BIG money) goes to labs, not to the Sociology and Education departments. Your argument, which is the same that ourlady... proposed, that those classes exist to make money just doesn't hold water. If money were the major factor, it would make more sense to can those classes and build more labs.

And why should universities care any more than professors if students flunk out? Every major university has a waiting list of applicants. There's no shortage of tuition dollars. Enrollment only goes up or down through fluctuation in population trends. It has nothing to do with creating weak classes to attract, and keep, the stupid.

 

[linuxgeek]

Define underfunding.

The fact still remains that nationally SAT scores are inversely proportional to the $$$ spent per student.

Ishmael

I see it as underfunding public schools when:

* teachers have to go buy items and supplies they need in the classroom out of their own pocket instead of the school having enough of a budget to make the purchases. It's become a common enough issue countrywide that Congress actually adds a tax break for a while for K-12 teachers who have to do this this. (I believe that particular tax break ended either last tax year or this one)

* students have to bring basic toiletries from home like toliet paper because the school budget goes dry

* science classes have to base their schedule of lab activites on how much they receive in donations from students' parents.

* music and art classes are dropped due to budget cuts.

* teachers who are not certified & trained to teach a course have to because their isn't enough school budget to either certify them or hire a teacher who is certified.

* even elementary students are being turned into door-to-door salespeople to help fill in the school budgets instead of just for special events like a band needing money to perfrom in the Macy's parade, a soccer team making it to the playoffs, an extended field trip to D.C., etc.

 

[sigh]

Define underfunding.

The fact still remains that nationally SAT scores are inversely proportional to the $$$ spent per student.

That's more of a cultural problem in our cities, rather than a failing of the school system. The bigger the city, and the bigger the school district, the more administration you need just to maintain control. I see it right here in my own modestly sized city. When I was in high school (in a considerably smaller town), we had one Principal, and he had one assistant. In my son's (former) middle school (which has a slightly smaller census than my high school had), they have a Principal, two assistants, three deans, two police liasons, two outreach coordinators, and six hallway/lunchroom monitors. Why do they need all that? They need it to maintain control of a student population that seems always on the edge of chaos. God, wouldn't it be nice if all but a couple of those could be replaced by teachers? I daresay you might see a better return for your dollar then.

It's not the schools' fault they have so many behavior problems. That's a social problem that the schools are dumped with, and expected to fix, and then are blamed for when they spend too much money trying to do it.

Correlation is only the tip of the iceberg, Ish. You've got to dig deeper to see what's really going on. But then the Sowells of the world wouldn't have so much to whine about, would they?, and what's the fun of that? Such answers don't fit the agenda of inverse proportions that you spoke of, so they're quietly ignored.

 

[morninggirl5]

I see it as underfunding public schools when:

* teachers have to go buy items and supplies they need in the classroom out of their own pocket instead of the school having enough of a budget to make the purchases. It's become a common enough issue countrywide that Congress actually adds a tax break for a while for K-12 teachers who have to do this this. (I believe that particular tax break ended either last tax year or this one)

* students have to bring basic toiletries from home like toliet paper because the school budget goes dry

* science classes have to base their schedule of lab activites on how much they receive in donations from students' parents.

* music and art classes are dropped due to budget cuts.

* teachers who are not certified & trained to teach a course have to because their isn't enough school budget to either certify them or hire a teacher who is certified.

* even elementary students are being turned into door-to-door salespeople to help fill in the school budgets instead of just for special events like a band needing money to perfrom in the Macy's parade, a soccer team making it to the playoffs, an extended field trip to D.C., etc.

The tax deduction for teachers was extended. It benefits those teachers who don't itemize. Those of us who itemize are still able to deduct ALL the money we spend and for many of us $250 is only a small percentage.

 

[Ishmael]

I see it as underfunding public schools when:

* teachers have to go buy items and supplies they need in the classroom out of their own pocket instead of the school having enough of a budget to make the purchases. It's become a common enough issue countrywide that Congress actually adds a tax break for a while for K-12 teachers who have to do this this. (I believe that particular tax break ended either last tax year or this one)

* students have to bring basic toiletries from home like toliet paper because the school budget goes dry

* science classes have to base their schedule of lab activites on how much they receive in donations from students' parents.

* music and art classes are dropped due to budget cuts.

* teachers who are not certified & trained to teach a course have to because their isn't enough school budget to either certify them or hire a teacher who is certified.

* even elementary students are being turned into door-to-door salespeople to help fill in the school budgets instead of just for special events like a band needing money to perfrom in the Macy's parade, a soccer team making it to the playoffs, an extended field trip to D.C., etc.

I'm glad that MG bumped this. The schools aren't under funded linux.

All of the admin types are overpayed. BIG TIME.

It seems that the larger the school district the more they forget what the goal is.

It's like the generals lobbying for a raise while the privates are out of bullets.

Then again, from a purely Machiavellian standpoint, it makes for a damned good reason (and sob story) to lobby for a pay raise for the privates so they'll be able to buy their own bullets.

Follow the money linux.

Ishmael

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

I see it as underfunding public schools when:

* teachers have to go buy items and supplies they need in the classroom out of their own pocket instead of the school having enough of a budget to make the purchases. It's become a common enough issue countrywide that Congress actually adds a tax break for a while for K-12 teachers who have to do this this. (I believe that particular tax break ended either last tax year or this one)

* students have to bring basic toiletries from home like toliet paper because the school budget goes dry

* science classes have to base their schedule of lab activites on how much they receive in donations from students' parents.

* music and art classes are dropped due to budget cuts.

* teachers who are not certified & trained to teach a course have to because their isn't enough school budget to either certify them or hire a teacher who is certified.

* even elementary students are being turned into door-to-door salespeople to help fill in the school budgets instead of just for special events like a band needing money to perfrom in the Macy's parade, a soccer team making it to the playoffs, an extended field trip to D.C., etc.

It's underfunding when they shorten instruction time by cutting the day from 7 classes to 6.

 

[linuxgeek]

I'm glad that MG bumped this. The schools aren't under funded linux.

All of the admin types are overpayed. BIG TIME.

It seems that the larger the school district the more they forget what the goal is.

It's like the generals lobbying for a raise while the privates are out of bullets.

Then again, from a purely Machiavellian standpoint, it makes for a damned good reason (and sob story) to lobby for a pay raise for the privates so they'll be able to buy their own bullets.

Follow the money linux.

Ishmael

If so, then it's time for some administrative firings.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

I'm glad that MG bumped this. The schools aren't under funded linux.

All of the admin types are overpayed. BIG TIME.

It seems that the larger the school district the more they forget what the goal is.

It's like the generals lobbying for a raise while the privates are out of bullets.

Then again, from a purely Machiavellian standpoint, it makes for a damned good reason (and sob story) to lobby for a pay raise for the privates so they'll be able to buy their own bullets.

Follow the money linux.

Ishmael

And again I ask you who will find,hire & train the teachers, to say nothing of manning the shelters nonstop during hurricanes if not the administrators?

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

I'm glad that MG bumped this. The schools aren't under funded linux.

All of the admin types are overpayed. BIG TIME.

It seems that the larger the school district the more they forget what the goal is.

It's like the generals lobbying for a raise while the privates are out of bullets.

Then again, from a purely Machiavellian standpoint, it makes for a damned good reason (and sob story) to lobby for a pay raise for the privates so they'll be able to buy their own bullets.

Follow the money linux.

Ishmael

This fall in Orange county the teachers and the adminstrators got the same paise raise: 3%.

 

[linuxgeek]

And again I ask you who will find,hire & train the teachers, to say nothing of manning the shelters nonstop during hurricanes if not the administrators?

Hire in new administrators at a more reasonable pay rate. It has been a while since I was directly involved in K-12 activities on a regular basis, but I don't recall any administrators who trained the teachers. The teachers were left on their own to earn new certifications and maintain the ones they have so they still qualified to have their job. If the administrators are doing some kinds of training of the teachers, I'd be interested in knowing what it is.

As for manning the shelters for hurricanes, what I saw and heard reported while doing radio operations for the hurricanes, the administrators were at the schools because they held the keys to the kingdom. The actual shelter ops were being done by county personnel supposedly trained in running a shelter or by Red Cross shelter managers.

 

[linuxgeek]

This fall in Orange county the teachers and the adminstrators got the same paise raise: 3%.

ok, but at what paygrade are administrators hired in compared to teachers?

 

[Ishmael]

If so, then it's time for some administrative firings.

That's always been the case linux.

If the privates are doing the job you don't shoot the privates. You shoot the general.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

And again I ask you who will find,hire & train the teachers, to say nothing of manning the shelters nonstop during hurricanes if not the administrators?

The people asshole, the people. That's who you fucking work for.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

ok, but at what paygrade are administrators hired in compared to teachers?

*eating popcorn, waiting for answers*

Ishmael

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Hire in new administrators at a more reasonable pay rate. It has been a while since I was directly involved in K-12 activities on a regular basis, but I don't recall any administrators who trained the teachers. The teachers were left on their own to earn new certifications and maintain the ones they have so they still qualified to have their job. If the administrators are doing some kinds of training of the teachers, I'd be interested in knowing what it is.

As for manning the shelters for hurricanes, what I saw and heard reported while doing radio operations for the hurricanes, the administrators were at the schools because they held the keys to the kingdom. The actual shelter ops were being done by county personnel supposedly trained in running a shelter or by Red Cross shelter managers.

See my previous post regarding how my adminstrator trained us on FCAT.

Administrators were there at my school during the entire operation of the shelters. I can't comment on what they actually did while there but I'm sure there were other places they would have rather been.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

The people asshole, the people. That's who you fucking work for.

Ishmael

Any people in particular? I don't think it would be very professional of me to recieve teaching strategy training from any Joe I happen to meet.

 

[Ishmael]

See my previous post regarding how my adminstrator trained us on FCAT.

Administrators were there at my school during the entire operation of the shelters. I can't comment on what they actually did while there but I'm sure there were other places they would have rather been.

My God linux, a teacher that had to be trained on a test? :avery:

Ishmael

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

ok, but at what paygrade are administrators hired in compared to teachers?

Are you asking sarcastically or seriously? I would find it odd if you were saying administrators don't earn their salary if you didn't know what there salary was.

 

[linuxgeek]

See my previous post regarding how my adminstrator trained us on FCAT.

Administrators were there at my school during the entire operation of the shelters. I can't comment on what they actually did while there but I'm sure there were other places they would have rather been.

Interesting. Just last week I had a meeting with one of my "head up the ass administrators" who outlined to us K-12 teachers how the FCAT tests thinking, and that we should provide similar type questions during our lessons. If you like I would be glad to provide you with her telephone # via pm and you can call her and I'm sure she'd be glad to explain it to you.

This just sounds like selling you on the party line not training. What do they train you to do? What wisdom do they have to endow the teachers with that the teachers to not get as part of earning their degree(s) and certifications.

As far as I know, the principal or a vice principal was at every school that was open as a shelter because ultimately the school property was their responsibility. As far as I heard and saw, they usually stayed in their offices only to scurry out because there was a problem dealing with the school itself--leaks, power problems, school personnel issues, etc. They had nothing to do directly with the running of the shelter. Shelter ops was the responsiblity of the shelter manager, whether from the Red Cross or a county volunteer.