Higher education in decline

[Adrenaline]

I daresay you've missed my point entirely on this one. My point was simply that instead of cutting the unnecessary projects, the superfluous administrative costs, and the board of control's many pay raises, universities pass the costs off their students in any way possible. When they can't raise tuition any more for fear of public outcry, they find other ways. They require more classes, they require on-campus living, they require meal plans, and whatever other ideas they have.

The screwing of the students isn't the cause of the unnecessary spending, it's the other way around

Saying, "well, college is expensive and they'll just raise the price on something else if we stop this," is horseshit. It's time to stop giving these assholes free reign to continually raise tuition and fees through the roof, and an additude like that just allows it to continue. This thing has spiralled out of control, and I, for one, have had enough.

It looks as if you missed my point too, which was that your apparent solution at the time (which I suppose it isn't, so what exactly is it? ) of requiring less classes as a means of supporting (but apparently not causing) their unnecessarily expensive habits was not addressing the root of the problem and would merely have them raise the prices elsewhere. This was a critique on YOUR (as I viewed it at the time) point and not at all expressing my own attitude. I mean that is exactly what will happen unless something else is done to curb it. As you now say, you do not see this as a big part of the problem. I guess you really don't like History of music.

I have always been a supporter of a system where students are required to take some courses that are unrelated to their chosen major so you'll get no complaints from me on that point. Whether it is somewhat a direct result of unwise spending on your school I cannot say, all I have is your posts so I'll leave that be.

But the money in higher education for the most part doesn't come from tuition. It comes from private donations (usually to build something to name after the donor) and from grants, from the government and from private industry, for doing research. That research money (at least the BIG money) goes to labs, not to the Sociology and Education departments. Your argument, which is the same that ourlady... proposed, that those classes exist to make money just doesn't hold water. If money were the major factor, it would make more sense to can those classes and build more labs.

Exactly. Until I see a stronger argument to oppose aside from assumptions and observations made from the outside I doubt that I will be persuaded to believe otherwise.

Although to be fair ourlady seems to think that unrelated courses are required more often for pocket money rather than simply exisiting.

 

[linuxgeek]

Are you asking sarcastically or seriously? I would find it odd if you were saying administrators don't earn their salary if you didn't know what there salary was.

Mostly sarcastic. I don't know exact numbers. I am mainly curious with you as a teacher (at least what you are saying makes it sound like you are, so I'm going with that presumption), do you really feel they earn what they are paid compared to what you are paid to be teaching in the classroom 5 to 6 separate classes of 20 to 35 students 5 days a week, having to spend time outside of the classroom grading up to 210 students' or more assignments and tests, and having to take your personal time to maintain your certifications so you meet at least the minimum qualifications to have the job of public school teacher.

 

[linuxgeek]

*tapping foot ... waiting for the sgt to give some kind of answer to the pending questions*

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Mostly sarcastic. I don't know exact numbers. I am mainly curious with you as a teacher (at least what you are saying makes it sound like you are, so I'm going with that presumption), do you really feel they earn what they are paid compared to what you are paid to be teaching in the classroom 5 to 6 separate classes of 20 to 35 students 5 days a week, having to spend time outside of the classroom grading up to 210 students' or more assignments and tests, and having to take your personal time to maintain your certifications so you meet at least the minimum qualifications to have the job of public school teacher.

Sorry, last night was Friday night and I enjoyed it.

I can't really comment on wether or not an adminitsrator earns their salary since I'm not one. I can tell you that as a teacher I wish we had at least 1 more administrator at our school just to handle the discipline, and that I feel administrators are doing things that shouldn't be in there job describtion.

Are teachers underpaid? Hell yeah. There has not been one day this year where I have only worked my contract day. I have always had to work extra hours just for school, to say nothing of the required classes I had to take, or my volunteer work, and it still isn't enough. From what I hear the more you teach the easier it gets. I see the more veteran teachers leaving when they are supposed to and the younger teachers just have to work more hours. Teachers can't be in it for the $$ though because the $$ is just average. I love what I do, and I'm sure I'll love it more when it becomes easier.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

[Double post

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Triple Post, really sorry.

 

[linuxgeek]

enjoying the evening is cool..

but, you did miss a couple other questions from previous posts. Hence why I said questions.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

I see it as underfunding public schools when:

* teachers have to go buy items and supplies they need in the classroom out of their own pocket instead of the school having enough of a budget to make the purchases. It's become a common enough issue countrywide that Congress actually adds a tax break for a while for K-12 teachers who have to do this this. (I believe that particular tax break ended either last tax year or this one)

* students have to bring basic toiletries from home like toliet paper because the school budget goes dry[/quote[
Meanwhile airline companies get taxpayer funded bailouts...

* science classes have to base their schedule of lab activites on how much they receive in donations from students' parents.

Meanwhile Ishmael hails Bush who gives $87 bil to Iraq...

* music and art classes are dropped due to budget cuts.

Meanwhile tax breaks are given to companies who outsource jobs overseas...

* teachers who are not certified & trained to teach a course have to because their isn't enough school budget to either certify them or hire a teacher who is certified.

... while millions of taxpayer dollars are spent registering men for a Draft that every right winger on here claims will never, ever be reactivated...

* even elementary students are being turned into door-to-door salespeople to help fill in the school budgets instead of just for special events like a band needing money to perfrom in the Macy's parade, a soccer team making it to the playoffs, an extended field trip to D.C., etc.

Meanwhile school athletics get top billing when it comes time for funding...

And you wonder why schools are doing so badly?

Welcome to Ishmael's America.

 

[Mellon Collie]

How is a college kid identifying Snoop Doggy Dog proving they learn in a political climate?

I’m not saying education reform isn’t a must, I believe it is, but this article is just stupid.

 

[Ishmael]

How is a college kid identifying Snoop Doggy Dog proving they learn in a political climate?

MOre of a case of questioning that they're learning anything at all.

Ishmael

 

[Mellon Collie]

MOre of a case of questioning that they're learning anything at all.

Ishmael

And here we have what the article’s thesis should have been.

 

[Ishmael]

And here we have what the article’s thesis should have been.

I think he was trying to couple the two facts together by association and didn't do so well.

Ishmael

 

[Stiffy Says...]

I think that you are missing something here...

Sooooooo, we can look forward to a "The Judeo/Christian Ethic's" course soon, right?

I think the point Linux is trying to make, or what I took from it, is that a diversity of courses, especially in liberal arts, enable one to understand better some of the other perspectives that others see the world from. Sure, many professors are so called lefties (being a sociology major myself, I am fully aware how left leaning the discipline is) but if they are doing their job well, they are opening your eyes to alternative ways of seeing the world - it is the student's responsibility to weed out the message being sent to them, from "left" or "right" and make their own informed decision. Personally, teach judeo/christian ethics as a class...and some other sets of ethics as well, so students may compare objectively.

"Perhaps one day it will dawn on people that it is incumbent on the minority to learn and integrate itself into the majority. It is the moral requirement of the majority to allow the minority the opportunity to do so."

No offense, but this statement makes me sick. It makes me envision a monocultured suburbia, the Wal-Mart culture...something I fear is coming due to the economic pressures put down upon the middle and lower classes. Perhaps I misinterpret your point here.

While it is important for minorities ad the majority to co-exist, I do not think that "full assimilation" is what our forefathers wanted, nor is it at all what I want. I am a white guy, and I tell you, I enjoy the wonderful diversity that so many different cultures offer our society. Partial assimilation I can root for - sure, we need one or two colmmon languages used everyday, but we could use more mulit-lingual education. Without that kind of diversity, you might as well just throw on some jack-boots and "heil" someone.

I do think instead of seeking assimilation, we should look to a society that allows minorities to hold on to those things that their culture brings to the table, and impose a bare minimum set of rules to retain civility. We were founded because people wanted freedom to practice their own religion, and to have representation for the taxes they paid. What makes America special is that it is one of the few societies that sought to accept all, not just "all who want to be like me, act like me and think like me".

 

[linuxgeek]

Re: I think that you are missing something here...

I think the point Linux is trying to make, or what I took from it, is that a diversity of courses, especially in liberal arts, enable one to understand better some of the other perspectives that others see the world from. Sure, many professors are so called lefties (being a sociology major myself, I am fully aware how left leaning the discipline is) but if they are doing their job well, they are opening your eyes to alternative ways of seeing the world - it is the student's responsibility to weed out the message being sent to them, from "left" or "right" and make their own informed decision. Personally, teach judeo/christian ethics as a class...and some other sets of ethics as well, so students may compare objectively.

Even for specialized majors, I see some of the courses which would be considered liberal arts useful for getting them to think outside of the limits they are going to be taught in their major classes. With the way many people seem to think these days, I could see the majority of students benefiting from an ethics course or two.

 

[Ishmael]

Re: I think that you are missing something here...

"Perhaps one day it will dawn on people that it is incumbent on the minority to learn and integrate itself into the majority. It is the moral requirement of the majority to allow the minority the opportunity to do so."

No offense, but this statement makes me sick. It makes me envision a monocultured suburbia, the Wal-Mart culture...something I fear is coming due to the economic pressures put down upon the middle and lower classes. Perhaps I misinterpret your point here.

While it is important for minorities ad the majority to co-exist, I do not think that "full assimilation" is what our forefathers wanted, nor is it at all what I want. I am a white guy, and I tell you, I enjoy the wonderful diversity that so many different cultures offer our society. Partial assimilation I can root for - sure, we need one or two colmmon languages used everyday, but we could use more mulit-lingual education. Without that kind of diversity, you might as well just throw on some jack-boots and "heil" someone.

I do think instead of seeking assimilation, we should look to a society that allows minorities to hold on to those things that their culture brings to the table, and impose a bare minimum set of rules to retain civility. We were founded because people wanted freedom to practice their own religion, and to have representation for the taxes they paid. What makes America special is that it is one of the few societies that sought to accept all, not just "all who want to be like me, act like me and think like me".

OOooooK.

Multi-culturlism and "diversity" are shit goals as practiced today. They serve NO useful purpose and invariably lead to a perpetual social underclass.

I'm mpt talking about food, dress, worship (except in some instances). I'm talking about core cultural values. It doesn't take a genius to look around and see what happens to nations that attempt to accomodate diverse cultural cores. The term "Balkanization" didn't appear without merit.

It would seem that the meaning of the word 'integrate' has lost all meaning. And that's sad, all of that time and effort were wasted according to your postition because you are implying that it wasn't an attempt at integration, but an assimilation, a word you use with a negative context.

By implication you assert that I should accept the Muslim belief in treating women as second class citizens. And that I should even accept their doing so in my society. Should groups that practice human sacrifice be tolerated as well?

There should be but one official language. While you are preaching we practice polyglot linguistics, the rest of the world is learning English. If I don't want to learn a foriegn language, well, that's my business, and loss, and none of your business whatsoever.

Ishmael

 

[RobDownSouth]

Re: Re: I think that you are missing something here...

....
By implication you assert .....

See Ishmael distort.

Distort, Ishmael, distort!

Ishmael likes putting words in people's mouths.

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: I think that you are missing something here...

Even for specialized majors, I see some of the courses which would be considered liberal arts useful for getting them to think outside of the limits they are going to be taught in their major classes. With the way many people seem to think these days, I could see the majority of students benefiting from an ethics course or two.

Oh, I agree linux. If it were more even handed. That was one of the points of the article and one that is reflected by many on this board. People that have learned so much about other cultures without ever having learned much of their own. People that have such a distorted view that they elevate other cultures, in many cases by indicting their own, without having taken the time to consider that without the culture that they are so busy denigrating, they wouldn't have learned anything about those other cultures to begin with.

There is also this notion that all cultures are worthy of preservation. Nothing could be further from the truth. All cultures are NOT worthy of preservation. Those cultures provide us with nothing of any particular value and actually work counter to the desires of those that practice the culture.

I see this resurrection of the notion of "seperate but equal" which is nothing more than a self-imposed apartheid. It seems to me that a great lesson is being lost here. Two lessons really.

The first being that seperate cultures cannot peacefully exist under a single set of laws. The attempt invariably leads to civil war.

The second is that a majority culture cannot "assimilate" a minority culture without the majority itself being changed. It's not merely integration, it's modification. A mutation that acts to the benefit of both cultures.

As to the 'ethics' portion of your post, I agree. But then we would have to discuss 'whose' ethics, wouldn't we. Ethics are culturally based, not universal.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: Re: I think that you are missing something here...

See Ishmael distort.

Distort, Ishmael, distort!

Ishmael likes putting words in people's mouths.

*snicker* And you are doing what "Rob the fucking Troll?"

I'm sure the poster is capable of speaking for himself. I don't agree with him, but he makes more sense than you ever have.

Ishmael

 

[RobDownSouth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I think that you are missing something here...

*snicker* And you are doing what "Rob the fucking Troll?"

I'm sure the poster is capable of speaking for himself. I don't agree with him, but he makes more sense than you ever have.

Ishmael

If the poster is "capable of speaking for himself", then why do you insist on putting words in his mouth?

Hmmm?

 

[lavender]

Re: Re: I think that you are missing something here...

Multi-culturlism and "diversity" are shit goals as practiced today. They serve NO useful purpose and invariably lead to a perpetual social underclass.

Even conservative justices on the Supreme Court disagree with you. They found and have found in the past that diversity is a compelling state interest. That's no small potatoes.

If you want to see the benefits of diversity go online and read some of the briefs submitted to the Supreme Court in the Grutter (Michigan) case. Then read the opinion written in that case as well as some articles regarding diversity as a compelling state interest and former judicial opinions discussing this.

The facts are firmly in the corner of the importance of diversity - primarily in the educational system.

 

[lavender]

I suggest you go back and re-read my post. It still stands.

Ishmael

How can you say that your post still stands when it's been chopped to hell by so many people on this thread.

Read Pink Orchid's post again and then tell us smugly that "[your post] still stands."

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: Re: I think that you are missing something here...

Even conservative justices on the Supreme Court disagree with you. They found and have found in the past that diversity is a compelling state interest. That's no small potatoes.

If you want to see the benefits of diversity go online and read some of the briefs submitted to the Supreme Court in the Grutter (Michigan) case. Then read the opinion written in that case as well as some articles regarding diversity as a compelling state interest and former judicial opinions discussing this.

The facts are firmly in the corner of the importance of diversity - primarily in the educational system.

Sorry if you think you've impressed me with some SCOTUS opinions and/or decisions. You haven't. I haven't bothered looking it up, but if it's the one about the U of M Law School, I think it was a really BAD decision and said so at the time. That wasn't diversity, it was a thinly veiled quota system.

Ishmael

 

[lavender]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I think that you are missing something here...

Sorry if you think you've impressed me with some SCOTUS opinions and/or decisions. You haven't. I haven't bothered looking it up, but if it's the one about the U of M Law School, I think it was a really BAD decision and said so at the time. That wasn't diversity, it was a thinly veiled quota system.

Ishmael

My point is not the decision itself or the specifics of the Michigan case - my point was the more generalized logic and reasoning as well as social statistics regarding the value of diversity in education.

 

[Ljbonobo]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/12/14/science.math.scores.ap/index.html

WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. eighth-grade students are improving in science and math compared with international peers, but the nation's fourth-graders have stagnant scores and are slipping behind in both subjects, according to a study of achievement across the globe.

The 2003 international results, released Tuesday, show some promise for the United States, including a shrinking achievement gap between black and white students, a federal priority.

Yet several countries, particularly in Asia, continue to outperform the United States in science and math, fields at the heart of research, innovation and economic competitiveness.

The Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, which covers content taught in schools in all participating countries, is an academic benchmark in the primary and middle grades. Forty-five countries took part at eighth grade, 25 countries at fourth grade.

Just one week ago, results from a separate international test showed U.S. 15-year-olds don't match up well with peers in math, an apparent conflict with Tuesday's news about U.S. eighth-graders, typically 13 or 14 years old. The earlier test focused on real-world application of math, not grade-level curriculum, and it involved different nations.

The new study compares the United States with other rich, industrialized countries as well as many poorer nations. The United States scored above the international average in each category.

Nationally representative samples of students took the TIMSS test last year. Among major findings for the U.S. students:

-- Eighth-graders improved their scores in science and math since 1995, when the test first was given. While the science progress has come largely since the last test, in 1999, the math rise came mainly between 1995 and 1999 and not in the recent years. The rising scores of eighth-graders also gave the United States a higher ranking relative to other countries.

-- Fourth-graders did not improve or decline in science or math since 1995 and as a result slipped in the international rankings as other countries made gains.

-- In both grades and both subjects, black students closed their test-score gap with whites. Hispanic students also closed the learning gap with whites in eighth-grade science.

'We have to keep at it'
The trends left ample room for interpretation.

Asian countries are setting the pace in advanced science and math, said Ina Mullis, co-director of the International Study Center at Boston College, which manages the study.

As one example, 44 percent of eighth-graders in Singapore scored at the most advanced level in math, as did 38 percent in Taiwan. Only 7 percent in the United States did.

"We have to keep at it, and maybe even step up the pace," Mullis said. "Even though a lot of people are working very hard on reforms, we don't seem to reap commensurate benefits."

Business and academic leaders say such scores warn that students aren't getting prepared for a global economy, a point Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan often makes.

"The lack of improvement at the elementary level does not surprise us," said Gerald Wheeler, executive director of the National Science Teachers Association. "We've been hearing from many elementary teachers that they are not teaching science because of the increased emphasis on literacy. Science is essentially being squeezed out of the elementary classroom."

At the Education Department, Russ Whitehurst, who directs the Institute of Education Sciences, said the U.S. students fared quite well in the international comparison.

For example, he said, only three countries -- Taiwan, Japan and Singapore -- outperformed the U.S. fourth-graders in both science and math. The United States faces challenges that the top Asian countries do not, he said, such as curriculum that varies widely across the states and students who come to school from diverse racial and ethnic backgrounds.

"That we're so close to the top is a testament to what we're doing," he said.

Jack Jennings, director of the independent Center on Education Policy, put the flat performance by U.S. fourth-graders in a positive light: their scores haven't dropped since 1995 while scores in some nations have. It would have been better, he said, had the scores been released with those from other recent tests to give them all more context.

TIMSS is run by the International Association for Evaluation of Educational Achievement, a coalition of research institutions. The group is separate from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which released its own test results last week.

 

[linuxgeek]

src

U.S. Students Trail Elite in International Tests

Students in the United States trail many of their peers in Europe and Asia in math and science scores, according to the newly released results of an international standardized test.

The Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, or TIMSS, compares scores by children around the world on a range of subjects. The study, begun in 1995 and conducted on a four-year cycle, ranks educational achievement at the fourth and eighth grades.

In the latest data, from 2003 testing, students in Asia continued to excel in math and science. Singapore, Hong Kong, and Korea were among the top performers in the study, which offered achievement results for 46 countries. The United States placed above the international average, but below several other countries, in both the math and science categories.

NPR's Renee Montagne discusses the results with William Schmidt, who directed the 1999 testing. Schmidt is a professor of counseling and educational psychology at Michigan State University. According to Schmidt, one factor perpetuating the poor performance of U.S. students is that their curriculum demands less from them.