Hierarchies (Political)

[R. Richard]

In many of the political threads I notice that many of the posters have an almost complete lack of understanding of hierarchies.

The people who lead terrorist organizations are NOT terrorists. They are in the terror business. Let me give you an example.

If I talk smack and and threats and then go out into the field with the Pittsburgh Steelers [selected for no particular reason,] the Steelers are not afraid. In fact, the Steelers are waiting for me! If I talk smack and and threats to the Pittsburgh Steelers front office, the police will come looking for me. The Pittsburgh Steeler players aint afraid! The Pittsburgh Steelers front office are as afraid as any corporate officers would be!

When islamists kidnapped Westerners, we negotiated and the situation got steadily worse. We had to have troops to protect our diplomats and even aid workers.

When islamists kidnapped Russian diplomats, the Russians sent in KGB/Spetsnaz teams and killed terrorist leaders [and/or their relatives.] No one touched any more Russian diplomats.

It is not practical to talk to a terrorist organization. The West continues to try and the attempts are insane.

The US killed Zarqawi, a terrorist "front office" guy. From the news:

American and Iraqi forces have carried out 452 raids since last week's killing of terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, and 104 insurgents were killed during those actions, the U.S. military said Thursday. (Using informtion obtained from the "safe house" where Zarqawi was killed.)

Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad, said the raids were carried out nationwide and led to the discovery of 28 significant arms caches. (The loss of the arms caches removes weapons from the hands of the terrorists and also costs a lot of money to replace.)

He said 255 of the raids were joint operations, while 143 were carried out by Iraqi forces alone. The raids also resulted in the captures of 759 "anti-Iraqi elements." (Note that more than a third of the raids were carried out by Iraqis. "The US aint never goin' to get out of Iraq." Well, the US may now be in a position to be a third out of Iraq!)

Now for the continuing stupidity. The 759 anti-Iraqi elements will be questioned. In a sane operation, the [Sunni] anti-Iraqi elements would be turned over to radical Shia elements [al Sadr comes to mind] and the Shias would do the questioning and be paid for useful information. The Shias are really good questioneers. If there are human rights concerns, why just send the human rights people into the Shia slums where the questioning would take place. [Don't have the taxi wait for them to come back.]

Even with the current incompetence, the killing of Zarqawi will lead to the capture/killing of LOTS of terrorists, including top level terrorists. The capture of more top level terrorists will lead to the capture of still more top level terrorists. [The front office will be led into the field and set up opposite 300 pound linemen!] The US is on the way to victory and an exit from Iraq IMNTHO.

COMMENTS?

 

[neonlyte]

Irish Republican Army

 

[ChilledVodkaIV]

Even with the current incompetence, the killing of Zarqawi will lead to the capture/killing of LOTS of terrorists, including top level terrorists. The capture of more top level terrorists will lead to the capture of still more top level terrorists.
COMMENTS?

Well if that's how they set up their organisation then they should be caught as a lesson to other freedom fighters about cell division.

 

[R. Richard]

Irish Republican Army

I don't really understand your comment. However, you might note that the IRA is now trying to joint the political process instead of killing more people. The reason being is that the IRA is losing support among the people who were once staunch allies. Remove the support, remove the terrorist organization.

 

[R. Richard]

Well if that's how they set up their organisation then they should be caught as a lesson to other freedom fighters about cell division.

The idea of a terrorist organization operating as independent cells is an interesting one. Tell me, who writes the paychecks for said independent cells?

 

[neonlyte]

I don't really understand your comment. However, you might note that the IRA is now trying to joint the political process instead of killing more people. The reason being is that the IRA is losing support among the people who were once staunch allies. Remove the support, remove the terrorist organization.

Just saying. Both sides tried killing. Finally settlement was negotiated. It went hand-in-hand with improving the lives of the populous. It is a well known fact (on this side of the Atlantic) that Adams and McGuiness were high ranking members of the IRA. They are now the mouthpieces for peace. The Northern Ireland settlement is not complete, everyone knows NI will eventually fall within the political jurisdiction of the Irish Republic, it is only a question of time, and waiting for a few staunch Royalists to expire from old age, the prefer method, rather than killing them.

Killing doesn't work. Never has, never will. All conflict resolutions are settled by negotiation, eventually. Some just like to see the writing drawn in blood. The alternative is brutal occupation and no one has the balls to attempt that.

 

[ChilledVodkaIV]

The idea of a terrorist organization operating as independent cells is an interesting one. Tell me, who writes the paychecks for said independent cells?

Paychecks? They pay for arms and training with traceable paychecks now? No wonder they keep getting caught.

 

[R. Richard]

Just saying. Both sides tried killing. Finally settlement was negotiated. It went hand-in-hand with improving the lives of the populous. It is a well known fact (on this side of the Atlantic) that Adams and McGuiness were high ranking members of the IRA. They are now the mouthpieces for peace. The Northern Ireland settlement is not complete, everyone knows NI will eventually fall within the political jurisdiction of the Irish Republic, it is only a question of time, and waiting for a few staunch Royalists to expire from old age, the prefer method, rather than killing them.

I am not really in touch with the situuation in Ireland. [My people got out of there at the time of King Brian Boru and yes there was a connection.] If a settlement was negotiated, there must have been some sort of change. What then was the change? TIA.

Killing doesn't work. Never has, never will. All conflict resolutions are settled by negotiation, eventually. Some just like to see the writing drawn in blood. The alternative is brutal occupation and no one has the balls to attempt that.

I must strongly disagree. Random killing by amateurs, of course does not work. Targeted killing by professionals has been proven to work, time after time. [e.g. Russians in Beirut.] The trick is to kill from the top down, not the bottom up.

 

[neonlyte]

I am not really in touch with the situuation in Ireland. [My people got out of there at the time of King Brian Boru and yes there was a connection.] If a settlement was negotiated, there must have been some sort of change. What then was the change? TIA.

Democratically elected parliament for the region, Sein Fein (former IRA) are the second largest party. IRA have destroyed weapons under international observers. The Rev Ian Paisley Senior (loyalist and majority party) holds up the parliament assuming full control of the province by refusing to sit down with democratically elected Sein Fein. The UK and Republic of Ireland governments (working together these last 10 years) have set out a timetable for the regional parlaiment to commence or they will re-impose direct rule from UK. A deal will be struck, hopefully before Paisley dies.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Democratically elected parliament for the region, Sein Fein (former IRA) are the second largest party. IRA have destroyed weapons under international observers. The Rev Ian Paisley Senior (loyalist and majority party) holds up the parliament assuming full control of the province by refusing to sit down with democratically elected Sein Fein. The UK and Republic of Ireland governments (working together these last 10 years) have set out a timetable for the regional parlaiment to commence or they will re-impose direct rule from UK. A deal will be struck, hopefully before Paisley dies.

If it comes to a vote, the people of Ulster, AKA Northern Ireland will vote to remain part of the UK. They've done it before and they consistently do so now according to the MP's they elect.

 

[Matadore]

Nuke 'm all and shoot them in the dark../God can sort them out.

The Ruskies didn't do so well in Afganistan in the last go-'round.

 

[R. Richard]

Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Richard
The idea of a terrorist organization operating as independent cells is an interesting one. Tell me, who writes the paychecks for said independent cells?

Paychecks? They pay for arms and training with traceable paychecks now? No wonder they keep getting caught.

Arms are bought for cash. Actually, not just cash, but hard currency that can be move across boders and spent anywhere that money is accepted.

Training is tough. It used to be that terrorists could go to Iraq or Afghanistan and train. The airline tickets were traceable, but they were going for "religious study." Now there are a lot fewer places that terrorists find suitable for training. Somalia has open spaces, but there is the very real possibility that you won't come back. As I said, it is tough.

The terrorist in an "independent cell" in Baghdad, is either idiot cannon fodder of a professional fighter. Even the cannon fodder has to be fed, laundered, etc. The professional fighters, who are the real problem get paid. They may or may not get a "paycheck" as such, but they get paid on a regular basis or they go find another place to fight. [That is why they are called professionals.] In the "good. old days," terrorists used to rob banks to get paid. However, that doesn't work too well in an urban environment, as the people whose banks are getting robbed tend to think of the robbers as bank robbers, not holy warriors. Thus, there has to be a paymaster. If the paymaster has, let us say 3,000 fighters making, let us say $1,000 per month, then the paymaster has to come up with $3 million per month for wages. In addition, there are expenses for rifles, ammo, RPGs, rockets, explosives, detonaters, etc. In addition, there are airline tickets, bribes, etc. It might be that al Qaida has to come up with $5 million per month to keep its "holy warriors" paid and equipped. The sum of $5 million per month is a lot for a paymaster to come up with. Then, there is the problem of the paymaster who calculates that he can live the rest of his life in luxury if he just runs off with the $5 million.

 

[R. Richard]

If it comes to a vote, the people of Ulster, AKA Northern Ireland will vote to remain part of the UK. They've done it before and they consistently do so now according to the MP's they elect.

From what you and Neonlyte say, I would read between the lines that there are still marches through "the other guy's" neighborhoods and fist, brickbats and even shots are sometimes exchanged.

Neonlyte, you tell me that death is not the answer and then you tell me they are waiting for Ian Paisley to die. Huh???

I am vaguely aware of the problem in Northern Ireland. The English ruled the Irish for many years. The English used tame Irish to keep the rest of the Irish under control. The descendents of the controlees hate the descendents of the controllors and vice versa. The problem is not going to just go away.

The English wait for peace. The Irish wait for "The Risin' of The Moon!"

 

[R. Richard]

The Ruskies didn't do so well in Afganistan in the last go-'round.

No, the Russians bled for 10 years trying to control the Afghans. The much hated George W. Bush did it in months, by using Afghan against Afghan. I told the armed forces what would happen and how to pervent it. They didn't listen and now the Taliban are back again.

 

[Matadore]

Taliban?

The US supplied the Taliban with weapons to use against the Russians. The US trained the Taliban in their use and in insurgency. One of the world's major sources of opiates comes from the country. We won't stop the growth because the economy would implode without a different crop.

The jihad is made up of religous fundamentalists who fight for reasons that have little to do with being paid. The professional fighters in Iraq are the former service men from the US who are "civilian independant contractors" who are paid thousands per month (while our active duty troops are paid much less for the same work). This war is like the other bullshit that is going down in the name of liberity and freedom...fueled by a false fear of terriorism...it's about money. Government contracts (unbid) granted to the friends of those in power. Hell, the grunts can't even get body armor issued! Many have bought their own from manufactures here in the US!

Using the Guard in the way that it has been is against the origonal concept that formed and justified the organization from its beginning. Do you really think that George W Bush would be in the Guard today if he were 23 and knew that he would likely be called into combat?

"Follow the money."

We have a bunch of crooks running the government...even the high ranking brass are grumbling and speaking out, and that is not just a few discontents.

If this were a serious threat, we would be rationing fuel, have instituted a draft that would select the rich as well as the poor and the aliens who are fighting for us. No one would be excused who was between the ages of 18 and 45. They would either be in uniform or in civilian defense jobs or in hospitals or in prison.

If this were a real threat, the Europeans would be sending troops as would the countries of Africa and Asia.

The problem is we have managed to allow the foxes to guard the henhouse.

This country is closer to revolution than it has been for a long time. Why do you think there is such a push for domestic survallence? What is the "anti gay" laws that are being enacted and the attempts to roll back women's reproductive rights all about? These are distractions from the wholesale looting of the economy by the single party power monopoly. Those in power are completely out of touch with the middle and poorer classes in this country.

If this were a just war, our economy would be infused by the oil from Iraq. And Iran would be shitting in their shoes for fear that the US was about to move on their piece of the pie.

 

[S-Des]

The US supplied the Taliban with weapons to use against the Russians. The US trained the Taliban in their use and in insurgency. One of the world's major sources of opiates comes from the country. We won't stop the growth because the economy would implode without a different crop.........If this were a just war, our economy would be infused by the oil from Iraq. And Iran would be shitting in their shoes for fear that the US was about to move on their piece of the pie.

Nicely said (standing ovation). The 'Toe in the water' approach to war is never going to work, or will at least take a really long time (and I hate the fact that so many national guard troops are being used for something they were never intended for and for so long).

As for the IRA conversation, my family left Ireland too long ago for me to have a real feel for the situation. However, big mistakes were made on both sides and the PR fallout put a lot of pressure on them to make peace. I'm glad to see it moving in a good direction, I hope to someday take my daughter to see where our family came from.

RR, these are very interesting threads. I stay out of many of the debates because I'm still new and am trying to get my feet wet. Keep 'em going, they're definitely fun.

 

[neonlyte]

Neonlyte, you tell me that death is not the answer and then you tell me they are waiting for Ian Paisley to die. Huh???

Sigh... I told you killing was not the answer. Waiting for a flag waving ideologue to die of old age, is a different solution.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

*throws hands up*

Ahhh! The Government's out to get me!

*finds remote control*

*watches cable*

 

[Matadore]

Huh?

The bastards are not out to get anyone (unless they're between the bag and the till ). These are professionals! The focus is power and money.

"Love my country; fear my government."

If you're still looking for the remote, it has been confiscated by those guys with the earpieces and pistols, but you can still watch the 700 Club or anything else they tell you to.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

The bastards are not out to get anyone (unless they're between the bag and the till ). These are professionals! The focus is power and money.

"Love my country; fear my government."

If you're still looking for the remote, it has been confiscated by those guys with the earpieces and pistols, but you can still watch the 700 Club or anything else they tell you to.

*clicks over to reruns of the Daily Show*

The devil you say...

 

[Matadore]

Hey!

No fair! You're watching my source of material!

 

[R. Richard]

RR, these are very interesting threads. I stay out of many of the debates because I'm still new and am trying to get my feet wet. Keep 'em going, they're definitely fun.

Welcome aboard! Don't be afraid to jump in the middle of things. If you have opinions, share them and learn from the reactions.

 

[R. Richard]

Sigh... I told you killing was not the answer. Waiting for a flag waving ideologue to die of old age, is a different solution.

A different solution only in degree. Simply waiting for an injustice to end is not too inspiring.

 

[R. Richard]

The bastards are not out to get anyone (unless they're between the bag and the till ). These are professionals! The focus is power and money.

I note that you left out the freezer!

 

[Matadore]

I note that you left out the freezer!

Bah! That was small change for the Nigerian guys who have millions for anyone ready to transfer cash into their bank account. OK, so he wanted cold cash, but $90,000 is such a tiny amount it can be ignored. That's like bitching that Georgie Boy is spending $50,000 of taxpayer money to flit about on vacation while New Orleans drowns...who gives a fuck?

Nah...this is about $ billions being taken "legally." It's about bankrupting the country while forbidding private citizens the right to go bankrupt.

Of course you see humor in all of this devaluation of the dollar and giving the country to the Saudies or the Yamenites. I imagine that your sides ache when you think of the fun the next generation will have trying to pay off this debt.