Interpretation of one content guideline re: NC vs thrills

[Quester3]

Debated here or General, but imo feedback from admin / mods (most preferred) or actual authors published would be far more relevant than general readers. Not discounting dear readers, simply logic - answer I seek is more confirmatory from mods or existing authors.

Short summary, then question - read the FAQ, read many stories from this site tagged non- consensual / reluctance to get general sense - and from both FAQ and existing story examples, I have zero issues or hesitance in attempting to make Literotica my one ‘home’ for erotic content published except one specific area.

Quote from content guidelines - “Ravishment/non-consent fantasies in which the “victim” receives no thrill or enjoyment from the acts, or is seriously and/or permanently physically harmed/abused/maimed/killed

I’ve been writing erotic fiction for personal and small circle of friends for ~25 years, but never published en masse outside that small group. After decent first profession, have earned full time living as published author with mostly contemporary fiction - trilogies of various themes, drama - some steamy, some not, various shorts and magazine submissions. A few non-remunerated sci-fi shorts in the Gor style (John Norman) if anyone remembers those books.

This relates to my question / concern, because I seek no financial gain from my erotic works. Have no need or wish, it seems poor return to the community I’ve lurked so many years to ‘contribute’ from a pay-to-read only distribution platform. However, at the moment that appears my only viable 2nd best choice if the interpretation of bold quoted guideline above is read one way vs another.

My concern and question before wasting time submitting any prior works, is I have zero desire to publish pieces here and there, some matching a niche here, others elsewhere. I am absolutely confident a great deal of past and future content has -zero- submission issues here. The problem and question is some of my work includes non-consensual scenes - some very light, others much heavier.

At -no- time is any aspect of nearly entire content FAQ come even ballpark close to my content not matching except on possible interpretation of the bold, quoted reference above. Underage, snuff, animals, etc - all void in all my content, erotic or contemporary fiction. The -sole- issue is the interpretation on one portion of the quoted line above.

-none of my characters in erotic fiction ever has any permanent harm done except one small semantic argument - does a brand ala Gor series by John Norman count as “permanent”? Stretching the example to maximum limit, the vast majority of my content has zero branding but few do - however a great many of my writings have tattoos - other than means of application, tattoo by my thought is same as branding. If the character initially received the brand / tattoo non-consensually - is this “permanent harm” as guideline? If character did not consent initially but later enjoys the tattoo / brand, is this different?

-absolutely none of my main erotic characters are killed in-story, however I do sometimes state in completely non-graphical terms a side character dying or being killed. Less details than my IRL published fiction books which kill off characters left and right with sometimes graphic details (e.g. combat scenes in several military themed novels). For example, an erotic female protagonist or side character has her husband killed, no gory details - no sexual connotation or thrills - simply bland narrative ‘a gas explosion arranged by [insert villain here] killed the husband, witness, friend, etc.‘ - so antagonist [insert manipulating character here] can seduce and/or manipulate her.

From strict ’wording of the law’ vs ’spirit of the law’ - much of my content would be persona non grata here if the simple act of killing any character off, even bland narrative style, is violation of the quoted portion re: killed (although the barracks lawyer interpretation could also mean victim killed only and that is the literal statement if read in that manner - e.g. anyone else can be killed off because the quote only defines victim as the class of injured party. Any help here please?

And the last true ‘big one’ - the mile wide possible interpretation of which side to fall on for quote - “in which the “victim” receives no thrill or enjoyment from the acts”

- I do have a small subsection of my erotic content that has the victim receive zero pleasure from the act - during, after, and any time after within the timeline or narration of the story. However, on this I am willing to find one home for my content without swallowing the pay-to-read pill I’ve no taste nor seek gain from. So if this subcategory is an issue, I can concede on that and have the 10% or so of my prior and future content voluntarily excluded.

- However, the massive loaded question is this, how is the victim receiving any enjoyment interpreted?

1) Must enjoy during all non-consensual acts? (*seems paradox, how is it NC if enjoyed during actual NC labeled act?

2) Must enjoy - e.g. convert to willing slut - after the not-enjoyed one or several NC scenes, but she fires up towards end and is very much consensual before T-1 second /eos?

3) Last logical enjoys when / how - victim does not willingly enjoy the NC scene at no time during, after, or end of story. But, typical trope of lot of erotic NC reaching almost meme - she fights, bites, resists, denies all attraction, thrills, utterly detests the gross dirtbag so dominating her but…narrative style, her first person mental verbalization, or third party direct observation -> she’s cumming squirts all over, orgasms repeatedly from the rapes and /or more soft power induced scenes - blackmail , coerced, dumb Secretary bimbo tricked into sex, etc. Does the victim need to admit thrills or is simple evidence despite adamant, hateful denials that physical orgasm = enjoyed, so all good?

Specific example of one story series already written to better illustrate my -exact- example:

-Susanne, first victim of story and series, blackmailed by villain to work for him. Husband already works for him. Susanne’s new boss guides her down through clear, outright coercion from blackmail along with drugs, psychological manipulation, and carrot vs stick reinforcement conditioning to continually evolve our heroine of the tale

-there are clear scenes of NC - some only simple extortion, some light force, some outright no questions rape including the beatings and bruises

- however, she orgasms in many of them, and far before end of story is having best O’s of her life in every NC scene, which turns into full consensual, she can‘t get enough O’s from him and initiates her own use

-later on, she completely finishes her bimbo slut transformation which is another sub-category, e.g. prim and proper innocent turns sex crazed bimbo who just can’t get enough. Only here it was through at-the-time very much NC scenes which she felt -zero- thrills or enjoyment until the rally marked is passed and now she’s the bimbo secretary most straight males would just love to encounter IRL office.

So, I am not being sarcastic, insincere, or combative in any way. From my reading of existing authors and searches for great many random quick scans so far, it seems good fit assuming one way of reading the bold quoted FAQ content guideline. On other hand, it does appear reasonable reading of both it and not finding literally any existing works that matches -some- of my content to suggest indeed no exact parallels to some of my works exists here because of the above enforcement that interprets in manner not favorable to enough existing works, which means I would prefer not to break up my contents to multiple per-niche sites as stated.

Forgive the length, but I wished as explicit clarity as possible to my sincere overall question as to content guidelines from one line only of entire FAQ that seems to be possible stumbling block (and if this long, you should see my usual part 1 of any story)

thank you,
Quester3

 

[Altissimus]

I feel qualified to answer as a predominantly non-con author and also intimately familiar with John Norman's stuff... although it's been a couple of decades.

-none of my characters in erotic fiction ever has any permanent harm done except one small semantic argument - does a brand ala Gor series by John Norman count as “permanent”? Stretching the example to maximum limit, the vast majority of my content has zero branding but few do - however a great many of my writings have tattoos - other than means of application, tattoo by my thought is same as branding. If the character initially received the brand / tattoo non-consensually - is this “permanent harm” as guideline? If character did not consent initially but later enjoys the tattoo / brand, is this different?

That's a good question. In the strictest sense, it would count as permanent harm and if delivered non-consensually (as in, say, a non-con story) it would breach the guidelines. However, it's quite a common trope for slave-type relationships and a not-definitive but interesting stat is that a search for 'brand' in the non-con category returns 1,885 stories. I'd say you're good here, but the devil is in the detail. If, for example, the wench in question ends up embracing her new status, I doubt you'll have a problem. If, on the other hand, you focus on the damage the brand does, the pain it causes, the distress to the girl, the unwillingness and unwelcome impact upon her, and her hatred for all that follows... it might not fly. As with all things on here, it's more about *how* you write it rather than *what* you write, barring the obvious (underage, snuff, etc).

-absolutely none of my main erotic characters are killed in-story, however I do sometimes state in completely non-graphical terms a side character dying or being killed. Less details than my IRL published fiction books which kill off characters left and right with sometimes graphic details (e.g. combat scenes in several military themed novels). For example, an erotic female protagonist or side character has her husband killed, no gory details - no sexual connotation or thrills - simply bland narrative ‘a gas explosion arranged by [insert villain here] killed the husband, witness, friend, etc.‘ - so antagonist [insert manipulating character here] can seduce and/or manipulate her.

Kill anyone you like. Just don't make it an erotic act, fuck 'em at the same time or immediately before. Simples.

From strict ’wording of the law’ vs ’spirit of the law’ - much of my content would be persona non grata here if the simple act of killing any character off, even bland narrative style, is violation of the quoted portion re: killed (although the barracks lawyer interpretation could also mean victim killed only and that is the literal statement if read in that manner - e.g. anyone else can be killed off because the quote only defines victim as the class of injured party. Any help here please?

Not a problem. See above.

And the last true ‘big one’ - the mile wide possible interpretation of which side to fall on for quote - “in which the “victim” receives no thrill or enjoyment from the acts”

This is an oft-debated topic (last one started by me, actually, and you might find it interesting) but the TL;DR version is that so long as the girl cums, you're home free. It's a very, very, very broad definition of 'no thrill or enjoyment from the acts'. There's some extremely dark stuff on here (which is far from my cup of tea) that is deemed acceptable. Rape is allowed. Non con is allowed. Reluctance is fine. If she's into it at some point, it's allowed. Doesn't mean you won't get some shit from some folk - commenters and authors alike - but that's the price of writing Non-con. And a lot of other categories too, for that matter.

- I do have a small subsection of my erotic content that has the victim receive zero pleasure from the act - during, after, and any time after within the timeline or narration of the story. However, on this I am willing to find one home for my content without swallowing the pay-to-read pill I’ve no taste nor seek gain from. So if this subcategory is an issue, I can concede on that and have the 10% or so of my prior and future content voluntarily excluded.

Safe option.

- However, the massive loaded question is this, how is the victim receiving any enjoyment interpreted?

1) Must enjoy during all non-consensual acts? (*seems paradox, how is it NC if enjoyed during actual NC labeled act?

Not required.

2) Must enjoy - e.g. convert to willing slut - after the not-enjoyed one or several NC scenes, but she fires up towards end and is very much consensual before T-1 second /eos?

Not required.

3) Last logical enjoys when / how - victim does not willingly enjoy the NC scene at no time during, after, or end of story. But, typical trope of lot of erotic NC reaching almost meme - she fights, bites, resists, denies all attraction, thrills, utterly detests the gross dirtbag so dominating her but…narrative style, her first person mental verbalization, or third party direct observation -> she’s cumming squirts all over, orgasms repeatedly from the rapes and /or more soft power induced scenes - blackmail , coerced, dumb Secretary bimbo tricked into sex, etc. Does the victim need to admit thrills or is simple evidence despite adamant, hateful denials that physical orgasm = enjoyed, so all good?

This. And note we're not discussing the moral impact of this, or the choices the site makes. We're discussing the rules. Rules basically state 'if she orgasms it's fine'.

Specific example of one story series already written to better illustrate my -exact- example:
-Susanne ... there are clear scenes of NC ... rape including the beatings and bruises... she orgasms in many of them, and far before end of story is having best O’s of her life in every NC scene

Perfectly acceptable *for the site*. NMK, but not the point.

Forgive the length, but I wished as explicit clarity as possible to my sincere overall question as to content guidelines

Hope I helped.

 

[alohadave]

-absolutely none of my main erotic characters are killed in-story, however I do sometimes state in completely non-graphical terms a side character dying or being killed. Less details than my IRL published fiction books which kill off characters left and right with sometimes graphic details (e.g. combat scenes in several military themed novels). For example, an erotic female protagonist or side character has her husband killed, no gory details - no sexual connotation or thrills - simply bland narrative ‘a gas explosion arranged by [insert villain here] killed the husband, witness, friend, etc.‘ - so antagonist [insert manipulating character here] can seduce and/or manipulate her.

From strict ’wording of the law’ vs ’spirit of the law’ - much of my content would be persona non grata here if the simple act of killing any character off, even bland narrative style, is violation of the quoted portion re: killed (although the barracks lawyer interpretation could also mean victim killed only and that is the literal statement if read in that manner - e.g. anyone else can be killed off because the quote only defines victim as the class of injured party. Any help here please?

Characters can be killed in stories.

Specific example of one story series already written to better illustrate my -exact- example:

-Susanne, first victim of story and series, blackmailed by villain to work for him. Husband already works for him. Susanne’s new boss guides her down through clear, outright coercion from blackmail along with drugs, psychological manipulation, and carrot vs stick reinforcement conditioning to continually evolve our heroine of the tale

-there are clear scenes of NC - some only simple extortion, some light force, some outright no questions rape including the beatings and bruises

- however, she orgasms in many of them, and far before end of story is having best O’s of her life in every NC scene, which turns into full consensual, she can‘t get enough O’s from him and initiates her own use

-later on, she completely finishes her bimbo slut transformation which is another sub-category, e.g. prim and proper innocent turns sex crazed bimbo who just can’t get enough. Only here it was through at-the-time very much NC scenes which she felt -zero- thrills or enjoyment until the rally marked is passed and now she’s the bimbo secretary most straight males would just love to encounter IRL office.

This should have no problem being approved. The way you describe it fits how the site interprets the rule. She gains enjoyment from the situation. If you will be posting a series, be sure that you don't take too long to show that she is enjoying it. If you post a chapter where it's purely rape without any enjoyment, it is likely to be rejected, even if you plan to show it in later chapters. It's a fine line to walk if you are doing a long series.

If you are posting as a single story, this is less of a concern.

 

[Quester3]

@Altissimus

Thank you very much!

You've read Gor several decades ago, so very likely listened to same big hair bands growing up. You'll perfectly understand then, that of the very few stories I use branding in scene, pretty much homage aka rip off of John Norman. e.g. love slave hates brute, gets branded, O's big wheee, slave loves brand and kills anyone trying to 'rescue' her from her 'slavery'

I think, no joke, this sums up pretty much every single Gor novel (all 30-40+ of them or however many it is. I just recall multiple shelves of a hefty bookcase my older brother owned filled with Gor novels)

Given the wide latitude it seems, I've no issues. Also akin to Gor, maybe as a teen that series really did a number on my developmental expression, outside of fairly small ~10% of prior finished writing for erotica with no O's but the villain, pretty much everything else regardless which official category eventually seems to lead to Gor inspired conclusion - female protagonist turns into having the big-O with tarzan. Or accountant, blackmailing boss, virgin teens consensual experimentation, etc.

Also to clarify if wasn't made clear to anyone - majority of my erotica content is not NC, rape, etc. Perhaps 25% at best. Best way to explain, however, is how many authors who have been writing for sustained periods would understand.

Whether published or solely personal, anyone writing for sustained periods measured in years will understand we go through boom and bust, focus and re-focus. it is lot easier to write with your flow - don't pick concept and write in that lane, just write and go with the creative lane you end up in without pre-destination in mind.

This is round-about way to say for last couple years I've been relax-flowing and just coming out NC, which I hate the term by the way. Lipstick on a pig, it is rape fantasy or it isn't. I still use within my stories the tags old ASSTR used - rape, blackmail, wife, boss, consen, etc.

Not arguing morals, which then we can argue plenty about distinctions of gray - I concede immediately there are tons of shade distinctions between 'soft NC', regular whatever that means NC, and total outright brutal rape until the heroine gets off on submission because there is no consequence or price paid for the that submission - it is literary fiction.

I would debate anyone on the topic that it is equally truthful statement to say -
-'as a woman like the protagonist described, if I were to physically feel the pain and go through in-person the physical and mental stimulus [story XXX] describes, there is no way in hell I would ever have orgasm. No, don't debate semantics of scientific thresholds and no such thing as 'absolute certainty' - my truth is 100% - no way, no how.'
(*anyone disagree with at least some segment of women who can say this without any possible refuting by someone else saying it can't be true for her?)

On other hand, that same exact woman could also say equally truthfully-
'as a woman like the protagonist described, if I were to READ the pain written in literary form only, and go through reading of the literary described physical pain and mental stimulus [story XXX] describes, oh yes! I could easily orgasm to that, and have done so many times'

The main distinction to me really is even if you don't participate - observing the very same act which happens to be reality, vs reading the same act that is positively known t be fiction carries two different stimulus because of the consequence free nature of the latter.

TLDR - I can read forced wife taken swap / taken away fiction and get off on it despite being happily married. I and my wife can be 100% not participants, bystanders only, but aside from redundant statement of call police, my observing of that exact same wife taken scenario happening in actual practice, would carry a very different reaction, no pleasure stimulus - because consequence free event is definitely not happening here.

As a last note - when many authors and readers reiterate how written expression is fine but please don't even think of doing it IRL - I am personally in the camp that having written expression as an outlet is very beneficial for a civilized society.

Read get to feel the consequence-free reaction to what is being read, and authors the consequence-free satisfaction of what they wrote. Otherwise, what are any of us doing here or similar sites - reading and publishing? I'm not playing pretend doctor on TV that most certainly am not, or 'therapy' or other further lipstick painting.

I -am- saying overall there is more net positive to allowing internal desires to be manifested through the reading and writing of whatever sentiment being expressed, than having banned it and leaving the populace the sole option to actually carry out IRL those actions. Could there be some murderer kill because he read murder fiction? Yes. Without also pretending to be a data scientist, it is my pure -opinion- that fewer people carry out the negative than the positives helped to control whatever urge, if any at all, there may be.

I feel qualified to answer as a predominantly non-con author and also intimately familiar with John Norman's stuff... although it's been a couple of decades.

That's a good question. In the strictest sense, it would count as permanent harm and if delivered non-consensually (as in, say, a non-con story) it would breach the guidelines. However, it's quite a common trope for slave-type relationships and a not-definitive but interesting stat is that a search for 'brand' in the non-con category returns 1,885 stories. I'd say you're good here, but the devil is in the detail. If, for example, the wench in question ends up embracing her new status, I doubt you'll have a problem. If, on the other hand, you focus on the damage the brand does, the pain it causes, the distress to the girl, the unwillingness and unwelcome impact upon her, and her hatred for all that follows... it might not fly. As with all things on here, it's more about *how* you write it rather than *what* you write, barring the obvious (underage, snuff, etc).


Kill anyone you like. Just don't make it an erotic act, fuck 'em at the same time or immediately before. Simples.

Not a problem. See above.

This is an oft-debated topic (last one started by me, actually, and you might find it interesting) but the TL;DR version is that so long as the girl cums, you're home free. It's a very, very, very broad definition of 'no thrill or enjoyment from the acts'. There's some extremely dark stuff on here (which is far from my cup of tea) that is deemed acceptable. Rape is allowed. Non con is allowed. Reluctance is fine. If she's into it at some point, it's allowed. Doesn't mean you won't get some shit from some folk - commenters and authors alike - but that's the price of writing Non-con. And a lot of other categories too, for that matter.

Safe option.

Not required.

Not required.

This. And note we're not discussing the moral impact of this, or the choices the site makes. We're discussing the rules. Rules basically state 'if she orgasms it's fine'.

Perfectly acceptable *for the site*. NMK, but not the point.

Hope I helped.

 

[Quester3]

Characters can be killed in stories.


This should have no problem being approved. The way you describe it fits how the site interprets the rule. She gains enjoyment from the situation. If you will be posting a series, be sure that you don't take too long to show that she is enjoying it. If you post a chapter where it's purely rape without any enjoyment, it is likely to be rejected, even if you plan to show it in later chapters. It's a fine line to walk if you are doing a long series.

If you are posting as a single story, this is less of a concern.

I am sure there has to be an exception, I've written continually a private stash of erotic fiction for 25 years. And I do have what I estimate 10% of prior stories with no enjoyment, ever, which I'm ok with excluding.

Otherwise, pretty sure only very few exception exists to rest of my stuff since I follow fairly regularly putting Prologue at start with hints or explicit reveal of the happy O ending, then spend the rest of the narrative progression detailing how the story got there to the reveal.

Prologue hint --> story narrative beginning chronological style other than Prologue hint, explain trials and tribulations until she ended up the way Prologue hinted - or Quentin Tarantino style and several forward-reverse time skips in between, which I generally dislike and rarely do.

 

[Cagivagurl]

[No personal attacks or trolling - including creating accounts for this specific purpose. Heated discussions are fine, even welcome. However, personally attacking / kink-shaming a fellow author or reader is not allowed within the Author's Hangout. Threads which devolve into the exchanging of insults will be closed and repeat offenders will be given a timeout, per the AH rules.]

 

[Quester3]

You want to rape a woman which includes beatings and bruising....
What a charming story concept. A woman who lives a pleasant life. Is drugged, blackmailed and coerced into becoming a sex craved slut....
Absolutely charming....

Cagivagurl

Absolutely true if you had not missed one key word - fantasy (or fantasize).

(I) want (and only ok) to rape a woman which includes beatings and bruising....(as -Fantasy- literature)
(It is) a charming story concept. A woman who lives a pleasant life. Is drugged, blackmailed and coerced into becoming a sex craved slut....
Absolutely charming....

{p.s. Taken (2008) movie is almost verbatim translation, with some artistic changes here and there, of the lines quoted above. It earned ~300MM USD domestic + intl + video. Considering that is 2008 USD and the height of housing bust #1 of 2000+ USA, that is a ton of people who apparently share your view the -extremely- graphic rape scenes in that movie are just fine - stimulating right into your brain via visual medium - of a clearly pre-legal age teen btw - but yea, a much milder form written with same artistic liberty as that movie is different?

At very best, a non-hypocrite would at least concede they are equal. So, equally bad in your view. Let's go with that - so now an original back at you using your logic if that is how you choose to defend -

'You want to watch a movie, visual stimulus much more sensitive to brain interpretation (scientific fact), and signal pathway forming (e.g. remember the scenes in your mental image - more fact) - where a brutal terrorist guns down dozens if not hundreds of people -
-including children in graphic detail that are not and never present in any story on my, this site, or any other I'd participate
-including old defenseless non-combatants and other civilians

You are fine with buying a second viewing of the same movie or similar in which eyeballs are plucked out in 4k detail, women beaten by drug abusive pimps and/or boyfriends (pretty much every Law & Order episode).

Can you refute any part of my obvious poke at your hypocrisy that you conveniently choose to ignore the -Fiction- of the writings as much as the -Fiction- of any PG rated TV show or movie showing much more visceral, detailed murder and gore?

 

[EmilyMiller]

[No personal attacks or trolling - including creating accounts for this specific purpose. Heated discussions are fine, even welcome. However, personally attacking / kink-shaming a fellow author or reader is not allowed within the Author's Hangout. Threads which devolve into the exchanging of insults will be closed and repeat offenders will be given a timeout, per the AH rules.]

 

[Euphony]

 

[Bramblethorn]

I feel qualified to answer as a predominantly non-con author and also intimately familiar with John Norman's stuff... although it's been a couple of decades.

That's a good question. In the strictest sense, it would count as permanent harm and if delivered non-consensually (as in, say, a non-con story) it would breach the guidelines. However, it's quite a common trope for slave-type relationships and a not-definitive but interesting stat is that a search for 'brand' in the non-con category returns 1,885 stories.

In particular, 283 of them in the last year. Not that it makes a difference for this particular question, but I find it helpful to include that "in the last year" option on such searches, because there are some areas where Literotica's policy has shifted over time and you may find older stories that were acceptable at the time but wouldn't be now.

 

[SimonDoom]

{p.s. Taken (2008) movie is almost verbatim translation, with some artistic changes here and there, of the lines quoted above. It earned ~300MM USD domestic + intl + video. Considering that is 2008 USD and the height of housing bust #1 of 2000+ USA, that is a ton of people who apparently share your view the -extremely- graphic rape scenes in that movie are just fine - stimulating right into your brain via visual medium - of a clearly pre-legal age teen btw - but yea, a much milder form written with same artistic liberty as that movie is different?

There's a crucial element you are overlooking here. Taken does not present nonconsensual activity in an erotic way. The daughter's kidnapping and sale into sex slavery are presented as unerotic and horrific.

To understand the Site's rules you must interpret them in light of the purpose: the Site does not want to provide a platform for content in which readers derive erotic satisfaction from "real" (unenjoyable) rape or nonconsensual activity, snuff, or torture. That doesn't mean it prohibits content that includes rape or murder; such content is OK as long as it's not presented erotically. AND it's OK to present nonconsensual activity as long as the "victim" enjoys it at some point and in some way. My impression is this "exception" is interpreted rather broadly.

My reaction to your overall question, and the sub-questions that are part of it, is that you can do this here, but it all depends on how you do it. If you want to publish here, write your story with a good-faith understanding of how the Site's rules work, and don't try to write "around" them.

 

[Voboy]

The rule of thumb?
Victim needs to cum.

/poem

 

[AlinaX]

tl;dr but would like to object to the misuse of TLDR here.