Heterosexuals, homosexuals and pedophilia

[BlackShanglan]

*nuzzle Yui*

Agreed, dear.

But then, I think Box actually agrees with you as well. He was trying to delineate different types of abuse, but the impression I got was that he considered them both horrible forms of abuse.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I rather like El Sol's idea of a controlled enviroment away from the home - something that lets them stretch the wings a little without a total removal of all barriers.

I like your point, Joe, about fostering greater maturity rather than knowledge; I was just wondering how we did that, as the continuance of a high school system that hasn't matured them seemed in some ways an unlikely way to mature them further. I think what I like about El Sol's idea is that it gradually extends both responsibilities and freedoms. It's always nice to be able to show that those two go hand in hand.

Honestly, it touches a bit on what I do professionally, in the academic world...

I think a revising of core curriculums to reflect greater amounts of critical thinking, especially the requirement of basic logic and philosophy taught up there with things like foreign languages and chemistry, will do a lot to raise the quality of people we're producing in this country.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Honestly, it touches a bit on what I do professionally, in the academic world...

I think a revising of core curriculums to reflect greater amounts of critical thinking, especially the requirement of basic logic and philosophy taught up there with things like foreign languages and chemistry, will do a lot to raise the quality of people we're producing in this country.

Amen. And start it earlier - in high school. Enough of the "senior year" syndrome. I don't object to a bit of fun and celebration, but where I live they love the senior half-day thing. Yes, great message. "Education is something to get out of as soon as humanly possible." "Senior year is for dossing about; nothing to learn here." They then pass them on to college woefully unprepared both intellectually and emotionally.

 

[Boxlicker101]

*nuzzle Yui*

Agreed, dear.

But then, I think Box actually agrees with you as well. He was trying to delineate different types of abuse, but the impression I got was that he considered them both horrible forms of abuse.

I do agree. I consider any kind of sexual abuse to be despicable, especially when it is of children. As for the hypothetical neighbor, I would consider it to be an honor and a privilege to chop him into tiny pieces with a dull axe.

Although I am somewhat argumentative, I will drop this now because I can see it is causing distress among some other Litsters.

 

[gauchecritic]

Can you please explain the definition of abusive that you are using... I'm following the paths of possible definition of abuse and abusive that would allow someone to arrive that an act of child molestation is NOT abusive and I'm coming up empty...

Thank you,

ElSol

I hadn't thought of it from Box's point of view and I'm not sure that I agree with that. What I was trying to get across, without using this next example and that you didn't seem to be aware of in the quote you posted, is that not all abusers intentionally abuse. This is not to say that not all abusers don't abuse, because the abuse is obviously defined by the recipient and not the abuser.

Let me say here that sexual acts on pre-pubescent children are abuse, no arguements about that.

I have read somewhere (that I now can't find) that purely out of love for an infant as well as kissing, nibbling and making noises with mouths on their children's bellies, faces and bottoms, mothers have been known, from nothing more than an extension of the previous expressions of delight and bonding, to perform orally sexual acts, actually sucking a penis or kissing a vagina. This was my definition of not being abusive.

From this I was extrapolating the idea that (as with consenting adults) a sex act performed on a child could be (albeit abusive and improper) an act of bonding. Which is how I came to the further definition.

These acts are wrong, improper and abusive, my contention is that in a few cases they are not sexually driven but (as in the birds and bees talk when two people love each other etc) acts of love.

This ties in with Yui's point about trauma caused by abuse and is again dangerous and contentious ground.

A probable misquote from Shakespeare I think. "There is nothing that is evil, only that others think it so."

I believe most people will agree that pre-pubescent children are sexually curious at some point or other and that two children mutually examining their differences and the physical feelings thus engendered are not in an abusive relationship. They are however aware that this kind of thing is 'naughty'

The reason they believe this to be naughty is from absorbed morals. Clothing which hides genitalia, no overt sexual activity in public by grown ups, toilets parts are for toilets only etc.

Let us then imagine a society where sex is on public display at any time as are sexual parts. The children in this society from the moment they can focus their eyes witness acts of sex at any time of day in any place they visit. Not only that but they can daily see acts performed by close relatives and complete strangers of almost all ages. We're obviously talking about animals here.

Where then does the trauma in our society originate? I contend not from the act itself but from society which will tell an abused child every day and in every way that they have been abused.

I'll just re-iterate here that child abuse (including whimsical beatings, eating all their dinner up hungry or not, drunken parents, sex etc) should not be condoned or practiced in any way shape or form. But in the words of M.Python and many many others "Society is to blame."

M.Python in this particular sketch added the arresting church-police officer's reply:"Agreed. We'll be charging them later."

 

[elsol]

Well, follow me for a bit on this, because this is really new territory...

I look at my Logic classes (when I teach). Freshman constitute the vast majority of the class (it's 100 level). These are eighteen and ninteen year olds and from ought that I can witness, so many of them are just not prepared for the world as they ought be. It's not just information, that's true. More information wouldn't necessarily correct everything.

Hmm... I guess that's another big difference for us.

Since I went to college at sixteen and then took off to join the army for a few years before going back... my perception of college is that it's basically adult kindergarden.

It's a place for kids to safely fuck up without fucking up the rest of their lives.

There's a hope that they can teach you something, personally I think Intro to Formal Logic should be a required course for everyone, but if you're not after an advanced degree, it seems an exercise in 'buying time' hoping someone matures in the process.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Hmm... I guess that's another big difference for us.

Since I went to college at sixteen and then took off to join the army for a few years before going back... my perception of college is that it's basically adult kindergarden.

It's a place for kids to safely fuck up without fucking up the rest of their lives.

There's a hope that they can teach you something, personally I think Intro to Formal Logic should be a required course for everyone, but if you're not after an advanced degree, it seems an exercise in 'buying time' hoping someone matures in the process.

Sincerely,
ElSol

I went to college at sixteen, as well. Seven years, three B.A.'s, one M.A., and a buttload of cash later... I'm confidant it's a unique experience that more people should be exposed to. I can't really agree that it's just an "adult kindergarten".

 

[NoJo]

Hmm... I guess that's another big difference for us.

Since I went to college at sixteen and then took off to join the army for a few years before going back... my perception of college is that it's basically adult kindergarden.

It's a place for kids to safely fuck up without fucking up the rest of their lives.

There's a hope that they can teach you something, personally I think Intro to Formal Logic should be a required course for everyone, but if you're not after an advanced degree, it seems an exercise in 'buying time' hoping someone matures in the process.

Sincerely,
ElSol

I was university educated. My parents weren't. My parents didn't have much money, but I could live back in those days on a full grant (eqiv of about four thousand pounds a year in todays money), plus summer jobs working in burger bars and pubs. I hated university, and dropped out after two years. Two years after that, I was ready to try again, and started a philosphy degree at 22.

My kids probably won't go to university until they can afford it. I'd rather they had some real work experience, and if they decide at, say, 23 years old, that they want to get a university education, they can fucking well pay for it themselves.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elsol
Hmm... I guess that's another big difference for us.

Since I went to college at sixteen and then took off to join the army for a few years before going back... my perception of college is that it's basically adult kindergarden.

It's a place for kids to safely fuck up without fucking up the rest of their lives.

There's a hope that they can teach you something, personally I think Intro to Formal Logic should be a required course for everyone, but if you're not after an advanced degree, it seems an exercise in 'buying time' hoping someone matures in the process.

Sincerely,
ElSol

I was university educated. My parents weren't. My parents didn't have much money, but I could live back in those days on a full grant (eqiv of about four thousand pounds a year in todays money), plus summer jobs working in burger bars and pubs. I hated university, and dropped out after two years. Two years after that, I was ready to try again, and started a philosphy degree at 22.

My kids probably won't go to university until they can afford it. I'd rather they had some real work experience, and if they decide at, say, 23 years old, that they want to get a university education, they can fucking well pay for it themselves.

I can top both you guys. I STARTED college when I was forty years old. I worked full-time during the days and went nights and weekends for four years until I graduated. I attended a commuter college and lived with my wife for most of that time. With work, classes and study, I didn't have time to notice the foibles of my fellow-students.