Here's one we can't shrug off

[cantdog]

Read 'em and weep

Sorry about the pictures

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Yeah, well, as long as it's not AMERICAN babies getting deformed...


oh, wait! They ARE..!

 

[boxofrocks]

God that was disturbing.

Sad part about it, is it's reality.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

That is horrible and yet we allowed it to happen not just to the 'enemy' but to our own people too.

Those poor babies, so unfair.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

You know what's REALLY sad?

A hospital in Baghdad is full of people in an advanced stage of cancer, a stage where morphine isn't helping anymore - and they don't have anything more than ONE bottle of Aspirin for THE WHOLE HOSPITAL to share.

Have you seen a person in the last stages of cancer? Have you heard them cry from the pain?

THAT'S sad.

 

[minsue]

As to the thread title...Unfortunately, Cant, we do. Daily.

 

[R. Richard]

The presentation was shocking. I decided to find out for myself. I did some searches and found a page from the World Health Organization that seems to indicate that the presentation was more shocking than truthful.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p="depleted+uranium"&fr=FP-tab-web-t-124&tab=

 

[shereads]

speechless

 

[McKenna]

speechless

ditto

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

The presentation was shocking. I decided to find out for myself. I did some searches and found a page from the World Health Organization that seems to indicate that the presentation was more shocking than truthful.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p="depleted+uranium"&fr=FP-tab-web-t-124&tab=

It took some searching to find the site you mentioned. You gave just a search page on Yahoo. DU is a problem for all involved and it should be disbanded. Is there something we can do together to get rid of it? Which will lead me to a new post. Not about DU but about changing a state law in Alabama about patient care that is needed.

 

[hiddenself]

Sensationalization at its worst.

Unsubstantiated assertions and fear-mongering is all it is. The presentation's statements are without scientific backup and the pictures are not attributed or explained. They could have come from anyone and anywhere.

DU is probably far from harmless, but there is really no scientific evidence that it is as bad as the presentation implies. The worst health effects are probably due to its heavy metal properties, not the very weak radioactivity. But who knows? The US military does not exactly make it easy for any impartial observers to study this.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/
http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20010614/03

 

[hiddenself]

damn double posts

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I was part of a study on DU having behavioral or psychological effects that might be based in physiological damage... so I wasn't attached to the research group actually studying the physical effects, but I heard all of their findings.

DU is bad. But it remains our best choice for what we use it for (other materials aren't as effective, those that come close are more harmful). The flash thingy was shocking, but not quite accurate. Its this kind of propoganda that can set actual legislation work back, wish people would just address the truth of the matter over the shock-value.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

What IS a fact is that nuclear weapons have been used against Iraqian people, and the leftovers from this bombs are now sending out waves of radiation, amking people sick.

If it takes shock propaganda and pics of deformed babies to make people wake up, then I'm all for those pics. This is one case where the end (American superiority) DOESN'T justify the ways (killing and injuring innocent people) to get there!

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Whoa.... I must be out of date... we used nukes?

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

. . . DU is bad. But it remains our best choice for what we use it for . . .

. . . for what we use it for . . .

Nice euphemism, that!


What exactly was being used in this Liberation.



The Military Use of DU


. . . The density of DU makes it possible to have a smaller bullet with the same mass as previous non-DU bullets but with less air-drag, producing a higher velocity and extended range. "DU is 2.45 times heavier than iron, 2.14 times heavier than copper, and 1.68 times heavier than lead. In fact, the chemical effects of DU on the human body are similar to those of lead which are known to cause acute toxic effects when ingested or inhaled.

Today DU ammunition is being batch tested on military controlled test firing ranges across the U.S. The primary interests in DU are that it is available in large quantities, it is cheap, and it has high density and pyrophoric qualities desirable in armor penetrators.

These pyrophoric properties cause it to burn on impact, melting the assaulted metal. DU munitions also have the ability to kill and injure those not subject to the weapons’ immediate impact. An Army fact sheet states, "When a DU penetrator impacts a target surface, a large portion of the kinetic energy is dissipated as heat. This results in smoke which contains a high concentration of DU particles. These uranium particles can be inhaled or ingested and are toxic."


Once the shooting stops, there are no battlefield CSI Labs to pick up every bullet fragment and particle for transport back for laboratory analysis. This hazardous material is left to litter the battlefield, so that the short term wartime cost effectiveness can continue to cause long term peacetime deaths and damages for decades into the future.


Link to Excerpt from "American Gulf War Veterans Association" website.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

Whoa.... I must be out of date... we used nukes?

No, we pelted them with our nuclear reactor waste.

No wonder DU munitions are so popular! Instead of having the expense of maintaining reactor waste storage facilities, we can ship it to our enemies at a high velocity, and leave it for their survivors to worry about.

Trouble is, we haven’t developed a cybernetic soldier that is invulnerable to radiation, yet. Even if we can remain callused about the fate of the soldiers (not to mention civilian populations) in harm’s way from our weapons, we must blind ourselves to the damage done to our own troops (and their children) at the SAFE end of these weapons.

Luckily, this Administration issues heavy duty Darth Vader helmets, so nobody sees anything the Emperor doesn’t want seen.

Some fit especially tight.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Virtual_Burlesque
No, we pelted them with our nuclear reactor waste.

Phew... for a bit there, I thought I might have just missed something on the news. I was thinking we actually dropped a tactical nuclear weapon on someone.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

No bombs, no, but nukes all the same. With as devastating effect.

 

[GingerV]

I should start this by saying that I'm emphatically opposed to the war, and that I think that DU is dangerous. I was on-side before I saw it.

That said, I was a little worried about the slideshow. I understand that it's trying to get a message out there, that shock tactics work for that , that not everyone is going to understand the science, or be moved enough by it to get our there and learn more. I get the point. But this is the day of the informed viewer, when we see something like that, however horrific, we more than any previous generation should be aware that it is designed to sell us something. If folks aren't selling us cars, they're selling us ideas. And you don't sell cars or anything else by pointing out that your competition has some good points too. We are behoven to go find the other side of the story, to fact check these folks as much as the ones we want to blame for stuff like this, to find more information that we were offered before we make up our minds. This sort of shock story should only serve as a wedge in the door of our awareness. If it's only the first step, I would forgive it the obviously emotionality and manipulativeness of it's subject. But I suspect that they know as well as I do that most people will judge from this. I wish they'd been more honest. I don't think the subject needs this much exageration. It opens it up to dismissal as an unreal issue.


People DON'T go looking for more info. They judge on what they saw in the show. And the folks who made the wedge are blamed for dealing in misinformation. Fair cop, at some points they are. They may feel that the ends (garnering support) justify the means. I don't find that is ever true.

So, putting my money where my mouth is, I trotted off and found some more info on depleted uranium. To start with, the flashshow vastly overestimates the amount used. It's also very true that there is no way to know where those particular pictures come from. I'm not sure I trust them that these are all kids from areas of DU contamination. And while cancer rates have increased in some areas, it's not clear that the numbers are as high as are being presented here, nor that they cancers cluster in such a way as to implicate DU (although I agree I'm not sure what else could be causing the boosts). All in all the information put in that flash program should be taken with an enormous grain of salt.

But here's the thing. They've got a point. There is good reason NOT to trust government sponsored studies of DU exposure, however. No, I'm not some freak with a tinfoil hat, they tend to have severe problems with experimental design. Specifically the work with Gulf War Vetrans use study groups that are too small to make statistically significant conclusions from. There's also some wierd categorization of the cancers (one case of lymphoma not being considered a leukemia). The one good study done on post-Gulf War Iraqi children (although not perfect) does show an enormous increase in birth defects (ma little less than 6X the normal rate). Keep in mind, though that a 6X increase means going from 3/1000 to 18/1000. Definately a big problem, and I'm horrified by it. But it's not every other child born, as the flash program may have left you believing.

There's other stuff out there, and I strongly recommend those who are interested start with http://www.nuclearpolicy.org/Documents/DU_report_final_7_6.pdf
if they want to slog through some of the research. They footnote/site themselves well, and their works seems fairly even handed. They use the real numbers in any case.

Joe, if you're still reading (thank you , if you are, by the way, I don't expect folks to actually get through all this scientific ramble), I'm curious to know about the study you participated in. I presume it was in MS, and I didn't find any from there. I'd point out that a lot of the problems people are now reporting are long term issues, and I'm not sure how long term a study would've been done on volunteers. But still, it's info. A link would be welcomed.

And I'm gonna go back to my smut now, [/science geek]

G

 

[Delicious Blonde]

ya know...they actually also use DU in nuclear medicine. It's used to shield tecnesium generators and other radioactive isotopes. It doesn't have any of the toxic properties of lead, and the radiation from the DU they use there is no higher than 'background', though it's quite a bit more expensive than lead.

I think the DU used on the battlefield is actually ammunition, the armor piercing kind, and not necessarily dropped from bombs. I don't know why it would still be radioactive, and I think they're fazing it out anyway. Aren't they doing stuff with 'green' ammo now?

 

[oggbashan]

Have you got a forty-year old watch or clock with luminous markings?

If so you are more likely to be at risk from radiation than from contact with Depleted Uranium ammunition residue.

Do you live near any granite rocks?

Ditto.

Natural radiation levels vary across countries and in some places you will be exposed to more radiation than a worker in a nuclear power station but 24/7. Have you checked where you live?

Og

 

[GingerV]

Depleted Uranium does have a higher level than background radiation from omnipresent uranium actually. And particular problem with ISN'T that it's going to penetrate through skin and tissue to reach organs (why your watch or environmental background is safe), but rather because when it's used in munitions (armour piercing, as DB pointed out) it does get blown up, leaches into the water supply and food supply, gets inhaled as particulates, and then it reaches blood, bone and kidney quite easily.

For the same reasons I think the problem shouldn't be exagerated, and also think it shouldn't be casually misrepresented and dismissed.

G

 

[Weird Harold]

ya know...they actually also use DU in nuclear medicine. It's used to shield tecnesium generators and other radioactive isotopes. It doesn't have any of the toxic properties of lead, and the radiation from the DU they use there is no higher than 'background', though it's quite a bit more expensive than lead.

You really should read the pdf file GingerV linked for us: http://www.nuclearpolicy.org/Documents/DU_report_final_7_6.pdf

DU is indeed used as radiation shielding, but it's shielding that has to be shielded -- DU is more radiaoactive than "background levels" and the DU used for shielding is no different than that used in ammunition.

DU -- when uncontaminated by other transuranic elements like Plutonium -- is 40% as radioactive as naturally occuring uranium; that's a fair bit higher than "background."

DU is toxic at about the SAME level as lead as far as heavy metal toxicity is concerned -- PLUS it it emits alpha particles which are the most damaging form of radiation.

From what the link above says about DU toxicity and radioactivity, I'd say it's about twice the problem that lead-based paint is (or was) and there is little doubt that banning lead from paints was a good idea.

DU weapons are very effective, but the same results can be obtained with other, less hazardous, substances -- and DU should be banned from weaponry just as lead has been virtually eliminated from paints.

FWIW, I believe but can't document, that the DU problem is in part the result of attempts to ban lead projectiles. Lead also vaporizes and contaminates the air and ground when used in projectiles -- old military firing ranges are classed as hazardous waste sites because of lead contamination from buried and vaporized lead projectiles.

 

[thenry]

Just a question by someone interested and unwilling to do any research, but according to the pictures it appears DU is working as some sort of THF antagonist? It would mean the effects are developmental and not genetic or chromosomal.