Help sought with 1890's English titles

[BlackShanglan]

Posted below is a chunk from a message originally posted to the Story Feedback thread. I'm trying to keep forms of address for one of my characters straight. I think I've finally cracked this nut, but wanted to know if anyone else knew about these things. Any help is greatly appreciated!

(If context is needed, the first page of the story is posted on the feedback thread.)

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On the titled ...
Halllelujiah. I think I've found the answers to all of my name problems.

Lord Vayne was intended to be the eldest son of a viscount, with "Lord Vayne" being the title applied by courtesy to heirs presumptive. That, however, came a cropper when I re-read my etiquette manual and realized that only the son of a duke, marquis, or earl got this - tediously stopping just short of viscount, the next stop down.

Then I realized that the elder sons of earls on up did adopt the next lowest title of the father - i.e., if the father is the Earl of Picket and a viscount, the elder son takes the viscount title as a courtesy until inheriting. Handy too, as I'd accidentally referred to him as a viscount here and there and was thinking "heir presumptive to a viscount" rather a mouthful.

SO ....

He's Lord Vayne, Viscount Vayne, or Lord Sebastian to friends, and his father is Lord Reginald, the Earl of Somewhere I Shall Have to Make Up. I do think that I shall introduce him first as "Lord Sebastian Vayne," not because it's thoroughly proper, but because it's internal monologue and we need to know who he is.

There!

I expect you all to remember this. There will be a test

Rainbow, have you any guidelines available as to if/when someone is addressed as "his/your lordship?" I can't find a reference in my own sources and am wondering if I am making that form of address up entirely.

Shanglan

 

[Guest]

Yup, sounds right to me!

However, I know Og will be more than able to give you a difinitive answer. I'm sure he'll see this thread soon.

Lou

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Heh, too many drugs. I'm with Lou lou. Ogs will know

-Colly

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

Yeah! Og will know, or you might try here:

British Titles of Nobility


It's part of the Georgette Heyer Website.


Now, back to the leftover Turkey!

 

[BlackShanglan]

Cheers, VB!

 

[oggbashan]

Georgette Heyer knew better than I ever will.

But:

'and his father is Lord Reginald, the Earl of Somewhere I Shall Have to Make Up'

must be wrong. Lord with a name, like Lord Peter Wimsey in Dorothy Sayers detective novels is a very minor member of the nobility. An Earl, say of Wessex, would be known as 'Wessex' to his friends. The more important the title, the shorter the name is a good general rule.

An Earl is not a Lord, except perhaps in one of his minor titles. He would be a member of the House of Lords as an Earl.

Og

 

[oggbashan]

1890s - By that time titles of nobility were being devalued by being 'sold' to newly rich entrepreneurs who donated large sums to a political party. Sound familiar?

Gilbert (of Gilbert and Sullivan) loved to poke fun at them. In the Pirates of Penzance the Major General bemoans the shame he is bringing on his ancestors. His daughters remind him that he bought the 'ancestors' with the stately home.

In HMS Pinafore, the First Lord of the Admiralty is a lawyer who knows nothing about the sea. At the time W H Smith, the owner of a chain of bookstores and stationers, had been made 1st Lord by his political party as a reward for services (and money). The poor chap was known as 'Pinafore Smith' ever after.

Og

 

[matriarch]

Yeah! Og will know, or you might try here:

British Titles of Nobility


It's part of the Georgette Heyer Website.


Now, back to the leftover Turkey!

VB, thank you for this site, you have made my day and my weekend......I have been a devoted fan of Georgette Heyer since I was a teenager.......I've lost count of the number of times I've read each and every one of her historical novels. They are just such damn good reads.

If anyone else hasn't read her.......I heartily recommend them.

Mat

 

[oggbashan]

Heyer's 'An Infamous Army' and 'The Spanish Bride' were recommended background reading at Sandhurst for Officer Cadets because they gave accurate information about Waterloo and the Peninsular War.

Og

 

[BlackShanglan]

Georgette Heyer knew better than I ever will.

But:

'and his father is Lord Reginald, the Earl of Somewhere I Shall Have to Make Up'

must be wrong. Lord with a name, like Lord Peter Wimsey in Dorothy Sayers detective novels is a very minor member of the nobility. An Earl, say of Wessex, would be known as 'Wessex' to his friends. The more important the title, the shorter the name is a good general rule.

An Earl is not a Lord, except perhaps in one of his minor titles. He would be a member of the House of Lords as an Earl.

Og

Yes, Rainbow set me right on "Lord <firstname>," got that. I'm a little confused though on that last part - my source says that in spoken address "Lord" applies to earl, marquis, and viscount? I.e., earl of Wessex would be Lord Wessex, or just Wessex to friends?

I did decide - as I think one can - to not make him Earl "of" somewhere - that is, my source says that earl and marquis are often earl/marquis "of" <place>, but not always. It would simplify the scene introducing the male lead's father, as they are are a dinner party and it might confuse readers if they don't obviously share a name.

(Oh damn ... web site has confused me more.) ...

(Later edit - no it hasn't Found more pages and sorted it out. Many thanks!)

Shanglan

 

[oggbashan]

I've looked at the website. I agree it is confusing.

I've moved my books of etiquette away from the bookshop. I'll look at them tonight and see if I can come up with definite answers.

It varies with the period. Georgette Heyer was writing mainly about the Regency period and her heroes and heroines are members of a very limited social class who knew each other. Relative (because most of them WERE related) informality was more usual. Any commoner who dared to address her characters informally was likely to be comprehensively snubbed.

By the 1890s the nobility had been diluted by parvenus. Social errors were common and caused amusement. Edward VII and George V insisted on rigid protocol. Edward VIII and George VI were much more relaxed. During the reign of Elizabeth II the rules have relaxed even more. Her Majesty accepts forms of address that her predecessors would have felt insulted by. The current rule is that you address The Queen as 'Your Majesty' the first time, and 'Ma'am' afterwards.

Rules for address for the nobility have relaxed in line with the Monarch's trend to more informality. Even in the 21st Century, 'Hey you!' is going too far, but 'Milord' or 'Sir' are generally acceptable for everyone from Barons to Dukes except on formal occasions. Any intended form of polite address is welcome even if technically incorrect. That would not have applied in the 1890s even though that period was less formal than Georgette Heyer's.

A rough rule of thumb is that the higher the rank, the less bothered the person is by how they are addressed. The recently created nobility are still conscious of their rank and they have probably have earned it themselves. They should be given due deference because their title is earned by their own services to the community and the title recognises that, as opposed to nobility who might have inherited their title without necessarily having any personal qualities that deserve respect.

Og (who as Henry VIII would have had executed any commoner guilty of disrespect to the Royal person)

 

[Kassiana]

Heyer's "The Masqueraders" is one I heartily recommend. The father is a wonderful character, and the dual cross-dressing is just hilarious.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Thank you very much, oggbashan, for your assistance. I was getting the same impression - i.e., that my time frame was a bit different to that addressed in the web site, although it was an immense help when I finally found the table working out forms of address for an earl and all of his family, written and spoken, formal and informal. The one thing that I think helps me is that with the "dilution" of the nobility, it seems more likely that someone can be in the position I'm imagining for the father - an earl, but not earl "of" somewhere. I wouldn't object to the latter per se, but it makes it hard to readers to follow when it's not obvious (through use of last name) who is related to whom. Particularly tricky when the Earl of Blank's son is the Viscount Blah and his other son is The Honorable Mr. Ed - I can see how it works, but I think it would be more trouble to explain to readers than it's really worth, given that I think it not too odd that he'd just be an earl and not the Earl of Blank.

(If that makes any sense.)

Kassiana - the cross-dressing won me over I shall have to find that one!

 

[oggbashan]

The Book of Etiquette by Lady Troubridge

Published 1926:

"There are seven degrees of rank in England which carry a title:
1. Duke; 2. Marquis; 3. Earl; 4. Viscount; 5. Baron; 6. Baronet; 7. Knight.

The first five are noblemen; they are called Peers, and have hereditary right to sit in the House of Lords.

Baronets, although the title descends from father to son, are neither noblemen not Peers. They have no hereditary rights beyond that of handing on their title to their heirs.

Knighthood is an honour conferred for life only by the Sovereign.

The custom of addressing and speaking of all Peers below the rank of Duke as "Lord" may give the idea that Marquises, Earls, Viscounts, and Barons are all of equal rank. In society they are treated as of equal rank in all matters except precedence, which is very clearly defined (see p183).

It is a solecism to speak of "The Marquis of Sussex," "The Viscountess Buckingham," "The Earl of Surrey," or "The Countess of Norfolk." It should be "Lord Sussex," "Lady Buckingham," "lord Surrey," and "Lady Norfolk." The rule is that the distinctive title is never used except upon the envelopes of letters, in the newspapers, and when the people bearing them are announced on entering a room and on invitation cards and name cards on dinner and Bridge tables. In the three last cases the prefix "The" is omitted."

"WHEN SPEAKING TO PEOPLE OF TITLE

In the case of a Duke or Duchess, they are spoken of as "The Duke," "The Duchess." They are personally addressed as "Duke," "Duchess." They are never addressed as "Your Grace" by those they meet in society, but this form of address must be used by servants, dependents, and any one having non-social communication with a Duke or Duchess. For instance, if a Duke asked a clerk at his bank a question, it would be rude, no matter what was the social position of the clerk, for him to reply, "Yes, Duke." He would say, "Yes, Your Grace."

In olden days, when people were more punctilious, "Your Grace" and "Your Lordship," "Your Ladyship," or "My Lord," were generally used in addressing men and women of title by those who were on social equality with them, but the fashion no longer exists, and "Lord" and "Lady" are used now exactly as are "Mr." and "Mrs." "

"
Og

 

[BlackShanglan]

Thank you Ogg - you must have read my mind as I sat musing "but how do the *servants* address them?" To their faces, of course - I'm sure they get any variety of treatment behind their backs

 

[oggbashan]

I think you might have more trouble with how they address their servants.

There was a very strict heirarchy beyond the green baize door leading to the servants' quarters. The butler and housekeeper would be addressed by their employers as Mr Surname and Mrs Surname respectively. Other senior servants such as the Lady's maid and the Lord's valet would be addressed as 'Surname' e.g. 'Jeeves' in Wodehouse's novels. Very junior servants such as footmen or scullery maids could be addressed by the first names e.g. 'John' and 'Jane'. The head gardener, the head keeper would be Mr Surname.

One thing to watch - not too many male servants. There was a tax on male servants. Unless the family was seriously rich then there would be far more women servants than men.

Og

 

[BlackShanglan]

With you Thanks, Ogg. Fortunately I'd done my reading-up on servants, but it's always good to get more.