Help out a debate, if you would...

[TheWanderer]

(For those who didn't see her yet, my roommate - and former g/f - has joined the forum as Little Girl, she's already made some great contributions!)

...so anyway, LG & I were discussing a special gal I dated for about 2 weeks last year during a break-up (I called it off with this other girl when LG asked if we could try again, that's another story). We've agreed that the way I treated this gal, let's call her Sunshine, was pretty Dom - handled with care and confidence, along with strength of character. And what I had originally thought was a needy, giving nature, well, we're in agreement that Sunshine is a sub waiting to be 'brought out' and discover true D/s. We've also agreed that the passion & intensity I showed her, both in and out of the bedroom, is something she's spent the last year craving since - in fact, she's said as much to LG, that it was more passion than she'd ever known in her lifetime.

(For those coming to conclusions, let me help ya along - yes, my two ex-g/f's actually became good friends after everything settled... just to screw with my head, I suspect, heh)

LG has told me I should just show up at her work tomorrow afternoon, take her somewhere for a bite to eat, then just claim her with a fiery passionate kiss. While I'm certainly not opposed to the idea (downside to being roommates instead of lovers = loss of passionate kisses.. damn!), in fact, would have done this about 2 months ago when Sunshine & I went to see the WWF live - but at that time, I thought LG & I were still trying to make things work, and wanted to be 'faithful.'

Sunshine is currently 'involved' with 2 male friends. One is supposed to be her boyfriend, and she had talked about moving in with him - but now that idea is on hold... LG says there's no passion there, judging by the conversations with her, just that this guy is good to Sunshine's daughter. The other is basically a fuck-buddy who offers her nothing in the way of emotions, but gives her physical pleasure - only to all-but-ignore her the next day.

In fact, while we came up with the idea of my taking off to go see her out of the blue (it's a 1 hr. drive from our house to Sunshine's) and talk (or more, if she is interested)... a call revealed she already had company of the 'all night' variety (the F-buddy).

My initial read is that I would be wasting my time in trying to start something with her, she has what she wants.. LG is saying that this is something of a typical sub behavior... wanting to give, but without having someone in a Dom role to give to, settling for what she can get. And since the F-buddy makes her feel wanted 'during' (even if he doesn't the next day), it's better than being totally neglected.

Does this make sense.. if all the above actually made sense to start with, heh... to others? If anything is unclear, I can add details as needed. But are we on the right track?

 

[Desdemona]

a couple of questions

What kind of relationship do you want with this girl? I ask because if you want more than just to be her playmate or f-buddy, I think you probably should work on re-establishing a relationship with her.

Why don't you contact her first instead of just showing up and "claiming her" (unless of course this is a secret desire of hers that she has shared with LG)?

These are just my initial reactions and my opinions.

 

[P. B. Walker]

I take it you want to start a D/s relationship with this woman, Sunshine. Or rather, LG wants you to or thinks you should. What are your feelings on this?

I can only say two things on this.. and they are just things I gathered from your post:

1) Sunshine's situation sounds complicated. Plus, it sounds like a buddy of yours is involved with her. How is that going to affect your relationship with him?

2) I think you should start of talking with her first and not jumping into a physical relationship. A D/s relationship needs to be started with understanding of what each party wants and needs beforehand.

okkk.. one other thing...

3) you said Sunshine and LG are good friends... what else does LG know that she isnt' telling you? Hehehe.. What brough this up... i.e., her saying you should go pull this with Sunshine?

Only you can make the decision... but I would go with your gut feelings. It sounds like you are already having second thoughts about this if you have to post to this board and ask us what we think.

I hope I haven't been insulting or anything like that. I'm just telling you my insights that I gleened from your post. Being as honest as I can be.


Take it easy and good luck dude.

PBW

 

[TheWanderer]

Re: a couple of questions

What kind of relationship do you want with this girl? I ask because if you want more than just to be her playmate or f-buddy, I think you probably should work on re-establishing a relationship with her.

I want to be her man, her boyfriend, and explore just how deeply we can go inside ourselves. We were really good friends before we dated (which went pretty far pretty fast), but breaking up hurt the friendship... partly because I felt it was difficult to maintain when I got back with LG

Why don't you contact her first instead of just showing up and "claiming her" (unless of course this is a secret desire of hers that she has shared with LG)?

:weg: Where do you think I got the idea?

She told LG that she dreams about me, just showing up at work, wrapping my arms around her, and just kissing her.

Also, we've kept in touch, gone to see a couple movies, been to WWF shows 3 times (I still owe her one, heh) - so it's not like we haven't talked in a year, we just haven't talked extensively in a while.

(Always do enjoy shedding light on subjects...)

 

[Desdemona]

Re: Re: a couple of questions

I want to be her man, her boyfriend, and explore just how deeply we can go inside ourselves. We were really good friends before we dated (which went pretty far pretty fast), but breaking up hurt the friendship... partly because I felt it was difficult to maintain when I got back with LG


:weg: Where do you think I got the idea?

She told LG that she dreams about me, just showing up at work, wrapping my arms around her, and just kissing her.

Also, we've kept in touch, gone to see a couple movies, been to WWF shows 3 times (I still owe her one, heh) - so it's not like we haven't talked in a year, we just haven't talked extensively in a while.

(Always do enjoy shedding light on subjects...)

OK then. I thought this might be the case but didn't want to assume. If you want her, by all means, go and sweep her off her feet. Then, step back and build yourselves a firm foundation for your relationship before you take it into the physical realm. JMO Good luck.

 

[TheWanderer]

I take it you want to start a D/s relationship with this woman, Sunshine. Or rather, LG wants you to or thinks you should. What are your feelings on this?

Relationship, definitely - D/s, yes, but that will come with time. I don't believe she's ever really been exposed to the atmosphere, so she would probably freak if I whipped out cuffs and a ball gag..

1) Sunshine's situation sounds complicated. Plus, it sounds like a buddy of yours is involved with her. How is that going to affect your relationship with him?

Uh, PB? F-Buddy. I mean, I've met the guy, but we ain't pals or anything... He's just her fuck-buddy, ya know?

2) I think you should start of talking with her first and not jumping into a physical relationship. A D/s relationship needs to be started with understanding of what each party wants and needs beforehand.

Oh hell yeah, the D/s aspects would come later, but the trust, the love, the passion, the respect.. that would all start from day 1.

okkk.. one other thing...

Hey, you said 2 - don't make me get them big-dick Dommes on you..

3) you said Sunshine and LG are good friends... what else does LG know that she isnt' telling you? Hehehe.. What brough this up... i.e., her saying you should go pull this with Sunshine?

She has a good read on people, and after a year of slow discovery into D/s, we both feel that Sunshine is a submissive who just hasn't met a man - other than myself - who she could trust enough to truly open up. (refer to the other reply for 'what she knows', heh) The 'showing up' is meant to be a swift, 'claiming' gesture... and it's something *I* know about as well, just from my own read on Sunshine.

I've known all along, especially since we worked at the same job, that she was still interested in me even after the breakup - but it felt uncomfortable being around her... knowing how she felt.. but not being in a position to pursue anything since I was still with LG.

Clearer still?

 

[P. B. Walker]

It is sounding like LG has the right idea

PBW

 

[artful]

Wanderer

I can feel your excitement as you ponder the possibilities here. I sense that you are not QUITE sure of yourself,...or of what this relationship MIGHT bring about.

I also sense your intelligence,...your not wanting to hurt anyone by your actions. I think that is GREAT. All you need do NOW is,...be honest with YOURSELF. What do YOU want to do?

C'mon,...get honest now. Look inside and get that answer. Ok, ok, ok,...I know it's tough,...so I'm gonna help ya out here.

Ya call her up and say, "Listen,...I have been thinking about US, a lot recently, and I am gonna pick you up from work at,(such and such time), for I want to discuss some things with you, and I don't want to do it on the phone."

"Would Monday or Tuesday be best for you?" (This will give her time to set up babysitting, or whatever else she needs to take care of)

It will also build suspense,...a womans curiosity MUST be fed,...ya can't tell them your plans ahead of time.

There HAS to be *Mystery* to this. LG can help you out by being, "I have no idea what he is gonna talk about", to her,...and it should be the TRUTH!!!

When you DO talk to her,...be HONEST,...but don't gush out your inner truths to be trampled upon. Tell her what she needs to know. (This is NOT being deceiptful,...this is only common sense)

So many men OVERWHELM a woman, by answering their EVERY question, the woman becomes confused. Out of confusion comes hastiness,...hastiness makes for BAD decisions.

Take your time,...be patient,...know what you want,...DEVELOPE the relationship with a guiding hand. (Ya can't guide if YOU don't know WHAT you want, or WHERE you want to go)

This advice is given freely,...hopefully it is worth MORE than you paid for it. Your Friend, Art

 

[~Dream~]

(For those who didn't see her yet, my roommate - and former g/f - has joined the forum as Little Girl, she's already made some great contributions!)

.. LG is saying that this is something of a typical sub behavior... wanting to give, but without having someone in a Dom role to give to, settling for what she can get. And since the F-buddy makes her feel wanted 'during' (even if he doesn't the next day), it's better than being totally neglected.

Does this make sense.. if all the above actually made sense to start with, heh... to others? If anything is unclear, I can add details as needed. But are we on the right track?

Oh my goodness ,do I EVER KNOW what it is to "settle"..so always wantinng to Give but never had the appreciation or the Guidance,the CONTROL of things that I yearned for...Until now that is...and yes ,I also "settled for "fuck buddies" if you will,which left me actually feeling very Unfulfilled"..my advice is to do as my Master suggested,HE IS A VERY WISE man and does know what He's talking about ..I have found out from experience,that He is usually right too! hehe

 

[SexyChele]

And what I had originally thought was a needy, giving nature, well, we're in agreement that Sunshine is a sub waiting to be 'brought out' and discover true D/s. We've also agreed that the passion & intensity I showed her, both in and out of the bedroom, is something she's spent the last year craving since - in fact, she's said as much to LG, that it was more passion than she'd ever known in her lifetime.

<snip>

My initial read is that I would be wasting my time in trying to start something with her, she has what she wants.. LG is saying that this is something of a typical sub behavior... wanting to give, but without having someone in a Dom role to give to, settling for what she can get. And since the F-buddy makes her feel wanted 'during' (even if he doesn't the next day), it's better than being totally neglected.

Okay, call me a bit cynical, but I'm seein' some red flags here. Your initial reaction to this girl (in the 2 weeks that you dated) was that she was "needy" - that's biggie there! "Needy" and being submissive are two entirely different things. If a sub is "needy", she ain't healthy.

I'm curious how you "know" Sunshine is a sub waiting to be "brought out"? Especially if you think cuffs and gags will cause her to freak? I would think both you and LG (unless LG has inside info she is not sharing) are making some big assumptions here.

As to the second paragraph, I'm confused as to how "settling" is "typical" sub behavior? Yes, I have "settled" a couple of times in my life, I will admit. But not out of a need for submission. It was because I was not healthy emotionally. Once I took care of my emotional well-being, I found no need to "settle". I still don't.

My read on the information that you've provided so far, is that Sunshine is a needy, albeit probably nice, woman, who needs to find out what she wants. Yes, having you come to her office and "sweep her off her feet" might be a fantasy. She may also be looking to you to fill the "needy" part in her life. Is that a healthy D/s relationship? Nope.

If YOU want to get back together with this girl (and I'm picking up that there is some hesitation here), then you need to sit down and talk to her, openly and honestly. You need to tell her about the cuffs and gags - not that you would expect a relationship to involve them immediately, but that it is something you are interested in. (if you are) I would not enter into this on the assumption made between you and LG that she "must" be a sub "in the closet". Could be the worst mistake you'd ever make.

But, as I said, I can be rather cynical.

 

[Shadowsdream]

I still see you trying to CREATE a situation of submission and Domination.

I hope you are not seeing more than what is because of this very new interest that has come to you through your interest in fullfilling the fanasy's of others by recreating yourself to their specifications.
I may be reading it all wrong but I just keep getting this gut feeling that you are running before you begin to walk.

The journey into Domination or submission is complex and so incredibly beautiful that moving to quickly will make you miss MOST of the nuances that make it what it truly can be.

 

[~Dream~]

explanation please..

Okay, call me a bit cynical, but I'm seein' some red flags here. Your initial reaction to this girl (in the 2 weeks that you dated) was that she was "needy" - that's biggie there! "Needy" and being submissive are two entirely different things. If a sub is "needy", she ain't healthy.

Although I agreed with most of your last post and felt it to be quite good advice,I was wondering,curious if you will,why you think a sub is not healthy" if she Needs things ,for instance ,I need THINGS THAT ONLY my Master can provide for me ..I am however a "giver" and I Know I am "submissive" but I just wondered if you would please mind to 'clarify' your statement about that a bit..thank-you..

 

[TheWanderer]

I still see you trying to CREATE a situation of submission and Domination.
I hope you are not seeing more than what is because of this very new interest that has come to you through your interest in fullfilling the fanasy's of others by recreating yourself to their specifications.
I may be reading it all wrong but I just keep getting this gut feeling that you are running before you begin to walk.
The journey into Domination or submission is complex and so incredibly beautiful that moving to quickly will make you miss MOST of the nuances that make it what it truly can be.

Well, keep in mind that up 'til recently, I was mistakenly believing D/s was about tying people up, spanking them, wearing leather hoods and looking like the gimp from Pulp Fiction. :j

Come to find out, at the heart of a true D/s relationship is the Dominant (in this case, myself) treating his sub with the utmost respect, cherishing her, tending to her wants and needs, helping her explore her limits... see, this is how I treated the women in my life, up until I met a totally different kind of woman in Sue (Little Girl), and as much as I thought I needed to be less of the Dominant man, that was actually what drew me to her. :sighs:

Keeping in mind that Sue has now realized what it is she truly wants - and sees these same qualities in Amber, we've talked about this at length. We both believe that given time to believe that I am for real, and with time to reacquaint ourselves - she would be very open to the idea, if introduced slowly (which makes sense, since I'm new to this as well).

In answer to Chele, a year ago I was in a different place as far as D/s, like I mentioned above. Knowing what I know now, what I read as needing to be giving to someone to feel important, I now equate to the sentiments Artful's dream so wonderfully related recently about being a very giving person, and I would hardly consider her needy. It was more of a judgment, at that time, based on an obvious lack of information, heh.

 

[Shadowsdream]

TheWanderer


I do enjoy your honesty and look forward to watching you grow as you walk this new path.

~~~smile~~~ the beauty of Domination and submission eclipses the sun in My mind.

 

[TheWanderer]

Re: Wanderer

I can feel your excitement as you ponder the possibilities here. I sense that you are not QUITE sure of yourself,...or of what this relationship MIGHT bring about.

My 'unsureness' had to do more with the approach than the possibilities. She'll know I'm coming in with open arms but open eyes. We'll take our time, and unlike before, we'll take it slow.

Ya call her up and say, "Listen,...I have been thinking about US, a lot recently, and I am gonna pick you up from work at,(such and such time), for I want to discuss some things with you, and I don't want to do it on the phone."

More like "I'm going to basically club you and drag you back to my cave..." Okay, maybe not, but since her parents just took off on a trip with her daughter, she doesn't really have things to worry about. My only concern is if she made plans for tonight, but I plan to show up after work, and unless her plans are concrete, take her out to dinner... talk... and most likely, give her a kiss that she'll feel from her head to her toes and deep within her soul. :j

It will also build suspense,...a womans curiosity MUST be fed,...ya can't tell them your plans ahead of time.

You're talking to a guy who only stops wearing his trenchcoat because it's too damn hot (but I will wear it tonight anyway, heat or no!)... that's why she called me her Dark Angel. (like the show)

Suspense comes naturally to me - I often look like I'm 'up to something', and with good reason! :sly wink:

When you DO talk to her,...be HONEST,...but don't gush out your inner truths to be trampled upon. Tell her what she needs to know. (This is NOT being deceiptful,...this is only common sense)

Yeah, I get'cha. Don't go into '...and someday, we can find out how well you respond to a riding crop!' on the first date... :j But honesty and openness (within reason) is a must.

Take your time,...be patient,...know what you want,...DEVELOPE the relationship with a guiding hand. (Ya can't guide if YOU don't know WHAT you want, or WHERE you want to go)

Assuming the answer isn't 'no', time is of the essence.. but making it work FOR me, not against me. And I have a pretty good idea where I want it to go, it's just a matter of pacing ourselves.

This advice is given freely,...hopefully it is worth MORE than you paid for it.

...and you said you had no words of wisdom for me..
Thanks immensely, friend, I hope things with Sunshine as well as they work out as well as you and your Dream...

 

[TheWanderer]

Thank you kindly...

I do enjoy your honesty and look forward to watching you grow as you walk this new path.
~~~smile~~~ the beauty of Domination and submission eclipses the sun in My mind.

I keep hearing a clip from the Matrix, where he says 'Take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland... and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes...' :j

 

[MsWorthy]

Wanderer, I commend you for taking a look at your assumptions, trying to learn, and taking extra care to do it "right". It seems you have come a long way in improving yourself, and I offer my support and kudos for that. *smiles*


However, I think you are trying to create yourself to the specifications of the sub/potential sub, again. It seems that you are looking at the potential sub and trying to behave in a way that will win/please her. I think this is approaching your desire to improve yourself as a dominant, backwards.

In my opinion, the only way to become a dominant (as opposed to just being greedy and caring only for yourself) is to look within yourself and find what it is that you need, figure out what it is that you naturally give (just by being yourself), and find your source of power. This power is what will enable you to lead naturally, gracefully. This power is your self-esteem, your sense of self, your unique value.

Define yourself. What do you have to offer that is, uniquely, you. What do you need that someone else might need to give. What are your strengths and what are your weaknesses. Find these things within yourself and work on the weaknesses as you give time, energy, and highlight to your strengths. Find your center and spend time around people who appreciate your qualities. This will improve your self-esteem.

Then you will know what you want, what you need, and can begin looking for her, instead of seeing someone you think you might be able to make happy and try to mold yourself into what you think she wants.

Start with you and then look for her (the one who will complement you). If you are looking for a committed relationship, don't try to make yourself into what you think she needs. How to act should come from how you naturally act. Being dominant isn't putting on a role (unless you are role-playing). There is no one way to be a dominant. Being Wanderer, the dominant, is being the best you, you can be. It isn't about how you dress or using your "man's" voice, or telling her she is going out to dinner with you, it is about leading, controlling, inspiring confidence and a sense of security in someone who finds your style of dominance just what she needs.

BTW: Personally, I think having a fantasy that a man (or woman) will walk into your office and sweep you off your feet with a kiss is a wonderful fantasy, but I don't think it is something anyone in the "just getting to know you stage" should ever attempt irl. This is romance novel stuff, if you ask me. A dominant is not someone who has no concern for others' needs/desires, a dominant is someone who expects high levels of respect from others and is more than happy to give that respect in order to get it. I can't imagine going up to a submissive that has not made a commitment to me and planting a deep tongue kiss on her.

 

[SexyChele]

Re: explanation please..

Although I agreed with most of your last post and felt it to be quite good advice,I was wondering,curious if you will,why you think a sub is not healthy" if she Needs things ,for instance ,I need THINGS THAT ONLY my Master can provide for me ..I am however a "giver" and I Know I am "submissive" but I just wondered if you would please mind to 'clarify' your statement about that a bit..thank-you..

"Needy", in the way that Wanderer used it in his post, normally means some one who is emotionally unfulfilled. Rather than being their own source for emotional strength, they cling to other people, needing them to fulfill them emotionally. These people are normally very vulnerable, easily hurt, and wind up in abusive relationships. They are easy targets, and allow themselves to be used - and, in extreme cases, abused. They have nothing from within to draw on. Sometimes this is a temporary condition, such as getting over a bad breakup. Other times, the situation may require counseling, especially if some one has been in an extremely traumatic siituation.

Yes, submissives are typically giving people. Yes, we receive our pleasure from giving pleasure. But if a submissive cannot stand on her own two feet emotionally, she simply does not have the strength of mind to get involved in power exchange of any sort.

A good example (or bad, determining on how you look at it) would involve abandonment issues. Now, most on here have agreed they do not care for this type of behavior from their Doms. That's understandable - who would? A "needy" sub might undergo a great deal of trauma if she perceives her Dom is abandoning her - even if the break is temporary. This could manifest itself in her becoming overly emotionally upset, physically ill, fits of depression, etc. She "needs" him to fulfill her emotionally. If he removes himself because of dissatisfaction, her emotional world ends. Without a "back-up", she crumbles and falls apart.

"Needy" people often "cling" to the one they love in unhealthy ways. Often they are jealous, can become suspicious, need to be everywhere their S/O is - or has to know where they are. If the person fulfilling their "neediness" disappears, they may automatically assume the worse. They are usually very insecure about the relationships they are involved in, afraid those relationships will be easily destroyed. And, normally, if their S/O gets upset, they will normally take on the total blame themselves.

Submissives should never be "needy" emotionally. Having a Dom provide emotional happiness is a good and positive thing. Relying on a Dom to be the sole source of emotional health is a dangerous thing. It equates to being a doormat - willing to put up with, or do anything, to make the Dom happy, even if it ultimately makes the sub unhappy, miserable, or causes her pain.

Hopefully that gave more clarification to my remarks.

 

[Shadowsdream]

SexyChele

Actually you left out one tiny thought..in My opinion

That extreme needyness (which was incredibly well put)
will eventually suck a Dominant dry of emotion and the desire to Dominate.

An experienced Dominant can see the warning signals and will seldom enter into this type of a relationship where an inexperienced Dominant will read this needyness as vulnerbility that strokes their ego when the other party shows them this need!

Eventually this needyness will become unattractive.

 

[artful]

Wanderer

I also am learning from Chele, MzW and Shadows posts on this thread,...so don't think Art is infallible with his free advice. There is SO much for ALL of us to learn. I assure you,...there is MORE for me to learn than there is that I *KNOW*!

Your Friend,...................................Art

 

[TheWanderer]

However, I think you are trying to create yourself to the specifications of the sub/potential sub, again. It seems that you are looking at the potential sub and trying to behave in a way that will win/please her. I think this is approaching your desire to improve yourself as a dominant, backwards.

Eh, not exactly. If you caught what Little Girl said about me, it's perfectly true. Basically, at age 19, I discovered everything I'd been taught, all the values and beliefs.. it was all bullshit. My whole way of life that my single-parent mother had raised us into was all based on a hyper-zealous incredibly-restrictive way of thinking.

Note: Please do not do this with your children, it makes life very difficult in later years. :j

The point is, to survive, I became very much a chameleon. Not in the 'sexual predator' sense, where one is doing so intentionally to get what he wants - more like The Pretender. Able to take on any facet of myself or my abilities and put the focus there as needed.

Unfortunately, for a long period of time, I was dealing from my weakness and my needs, rather than dealing from my strengths. Now that I've refocused and realigned my perceptions, I'm discovering a lot I hadn't seen before.

Included in that is the assessment of D/s as a whole - also, my perceptions of this gal Sunshine. What I originally read as needy, in the sense of needing to have someone in her life to give to, is more like wanting to be submissive and giving... just not having the self-esteem to wait for someone truly worthy of giving to.

We talked more about Sunshine this morning, and Sue (LG) told me she sees a lot of Sunshine in herself, at least the way Sue was 5 or 6 years ago, before she met me. And I've come to the conclusion that due to a lack of self-esteem (mostly due to a serious weight problem which Sunshine has sought medical help for, and living with parents who tend to make her a little dependent), she just doesn't believe she deserves to be treated right. However, I don't think she's any more 'needy' than, say, Dream.. just a very giving person who deserves better than what she's settled for.

BTW: Personally, I think having a fantasy that a man (or woman) will walk into your office and sweep you off your feet with a kiss is a wonderful fantasy, but I don't think it is something anyone in the "just getting to know you stage" should ever attempt irl. This is romance novel stuff, if you ask me. A dominant is not someone who has no concern for others' needs/desires, a dominant is someone who expects high levels of respect from others and is more than happy to give that respect in order to get it. I can't imagine going up to a submissive that has not made a commitment to me and planting a deep tongue kiss on her.

Gotcha. Check the next post for more on this.. :j

 

[TheWanderer]

- UPDATE -

Okay, here's the deal...

Last night I took off after work and went to her job, waiting out in the parking lot. Despite the low-90º afternoon, the trench was on - hey, it's part of the attraction, why not use it? Besides, heat only bothers me if I allow it, and my focus was elsewhere...

So when she came out to leave, here comes her ol' Dark Angel coming out to meet her. She was very pleasantly surprised, but despite my 'not taking no for an answer' attitude.. I took 'no' - heh. Without being pushy, I made it clear we were going out to dinner to talk, but she said tonight wasn't good - apparently, her f-buddy was still at her house, and she was worried her parents would be upset about this. (Her Mom doesn't like him, probably because he's the same kind of guy as Sunshine's ex-husband, who treated her like crap for 7 years, mostly because she allowed it.)

HOWEVER, taking Artful's advice, I set a date for Sunday night. She said she might be working overtime to try and make some extra money (apparently she's loaned her 'buddy' some $ and he's been slow about paying it back, so now SHE's in the hole...) if they offer an OT time period Sun night, but if she didn't, we would go out and talk.

It is not my intention to rush back into anything, however, I will make it clear that I am available... and my interests don't lie in her giving as much as they do in her well-being. We're talking about a girl with a great heart, very intelligent (2 yrs. at OU!), but who has allowed herself to become dependent on others because no one has taken the time to show her she can make it on the merits of her own strengths.

I fully recognize that quality, because I had it in myself for a long time. So did Sue, and I hardly consider her needy or weak. It just took time and some serious soul-searching to find that within ourselves, and make the necessary changes within ourselves to become whole.

But, uh, back to the subject.. She knows she should be doing better, but my read is the fear of being alone, fear of rejection keeps her there with him. My intention Sun. night is to talk to her extensively, and help her realize (as I did a year ago, when she finally closed the door on her ex-husband) that she DOES deserve better, that she DOES have the strength to stand up for what she really wants, that she DOES have the ability to grow and fulfill her dreams.

Anyway, that's the plan. Wish me luck.. :j

 

[SexyChele]

Well, I shall wish you luck, because, damn - you are going to need it!

Okay...

1. I'm glad you and LG have figured out all of Sunshine's problems, and the resolution to each one of them. I'm certain she will be very pleased with that info. (Heavy sarcasm here) I have had this happen to me - an ex-boyfriend felt he and his friend knew more about me and what I was feeling than I did. And just "knew" what was right for me. Notice that I said "ex". I did not take well to his deep analysis of me with his friend. And, their conclusions were both full of shit. You and LG might want to consider this.

2. Sunshine has a mountain of problems, and are you really certain you want to take this on? Really? So far, she has self-esteem problems, she's a sub "in hiding", she makes lousy choices in men, she's dependent on her parents. And this is all something YOU are going to "help" her with, right? Yeah. Okay. The word "co-dependent" mean anything to ya? Also, don't expect to be the "knight in shining armor". You may get sucked into a whirlpool you aren't prepared to get out of.

3. Okay, let me get this straight. Sunshine tells LG that her fantasy is for you to come to her job, wrap your arms around her, kiss, and generally sweep her off her feet. You attempt to provide this fantasy, at least in part. And she said "tonight wasn't good"?? Because "fuck-buddy" was at the house? HUH?!?!?! What is this? If this was "truly" her fantasy, then she would have called "fuck-buddy" and told him to leave - she'd had something else come up.

4. This woman was married 7 years to a man who "treated her like crap because she allowed him to". This speaks volumes. And now she's repeating the same pattern with another man. Yup, she would. If she is "needy" and has low self-esteem, this is a pattern of behavior. This is NOT a "sub". This is some one who has not yet matured emotionally, and possibly needs some professional help in sorting this out.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing this as a D/s thing. I'm seeing this as a woman who is in need of help - possibly professional - and you believing you are going to "save" her. That is NOT what being a Dom is about. Dominants DO NOT save people!! Submissive DO NOT need to be saved. From what you have said so far, this has all the earmarks of an extremely disatrous relationship.

Now, there could be some things that you are not sharing. I certainly hope so. But from what I'm hearing here - it ain't lookin' good.

So, yes, good luck. You will have need of it!

 

[TheWanderer]

Hmm...

Okay, now reading this post back, it seemed really sarcastic, somewhat cynical, and a bit heavy handed.. but you know what it was mostly...???

...

True.

To be honest, I had some doubts, most of which were the very things you brought up. Like you said, if this was her fantasy, why wasn't she jumping at the chance? And what am I doing trying to save her?

Once upon a time, I thought that's what real love was, and in the process of trying to create Wanderer v2.0, the entire thought process and perceptions are being realigned. Guess this one slipped through the cracks...

I just realized this morning that I'll probably end up having to choose between watching a softball game where Sue's daughter is pitching, likely for the tournament championship.. and taking Sunshine out, since I told her 6:30 before I knew the tournament would have it's final game scheduled for 6:00 today. And I'm a BIG fan of the softball team. :j

As much as I'd like to be the hero in someone's life story, it's a cute Hollywood-oriented gesture, but it's not real life. (And no, it's no D/s, either) It's certainly not something you want to base a relationship on, because what happens when the fires are all out - do you start more just to put them out??

Some days it's really hard, living with a woman I poured my heart into for four years, and at times, all i want is to give the love and passion I have inside me to someone else. But I need to remember, to wait until there is someone worth giving to. Someone who will respect that gift enough, someone who doesn't need it to fill the holes within themself. Someone who can truly give back 100% just as I give, be it as Master to submissive or as partner to partner.

Thanks for the 2nd opinion, Chelle, you've really reaffirmed my doubts and helped me listen to the voice of reason inside myself.

I think I'm going to put the exploration of D/s on the back burner for a bit and just concentrate on myself. After all, how the hell is anyone going to like me for who I am if I'm still a work in progress?

 

[cymbidia]

We're all always works in progress, Wanderer. We're all still, continuously, reinventing ourselves and fine-tuning what we already know and like.

Sometimes, though, the tinkering is such that we need to take a step back from the pulls from outside so we can concentrate on the growing we need to do internally. There's no shame involved in temporarily abandoning that which has been of interest in order to further our personal evolution. We all do it. If a need for D/s BDSM is a part of your core persona, or if you simply want it to be a part of your sexuality, then you'll come back to it later, when you feel more centered in your life, when you're ready to give it some priority in your life again.




Chele, your reading of this situation, and its subsequent verbalization, was spot-on. Well done.

I'm continually awed at the sophisticated level of insighful understanding - and self-analysis - exhibited by the members of this small community with regard to disparate and complex human interactions, potential and actual, especially as they pertain to that which is cradled under the BDSM umbrella.