HELP ME PLEASE! All advice wanted

Relax and worry about tomorrow tomorrow

I don't think we know enough about you to completely figure out why your dates turn out not to be dates, but here are some suggestions from someone who's been there.

First, this is an issue for more guys than you think. You're just falling into the trap of thinking everyone is "getting more" than you are. That's all just locker room talk. Don't believe it.

Second, you need a woman's perspective, and you need to hear from someone who knows you personally. Do you have a friend who's a woman you can ask? Someone you trust to give you a straight answer?

Next, one thing I've learned over the years is that the way we think people perceive us is all in our own heads. If I'm worried that I think someone thinks I'm not fitting in, chances are that they're not. It's just me being worried in my own head that I'm not fitting in, and I can turn that around by at least pretending on the outside that I am comfortable. Sometimes just pretending I am OK can even lead to feeling OK. Not always, and when it doesn't, I just don't go there again because I decide it's not for me. But sometimes it gets me over the hump of my own insecurity. At least 5 out of 10 times you're worrying that a woman thinks you're a geek, she's not. It sounds like when you stand in front of an audience you're not worried. Somehow you've figured out how to carry the day in that situation. All you need to do is transfer that skill to a one-on-one situation.

Next, you wrote, "They say there are signs. If so, I'm driving right past them without ever noticing they're there." Maye you need to slow down a little? Give yourself a chance to read the signs? Not every first, second or even third date is going to lead to the bedroom. Maybe you need to change how you think about this. Start thinking that you're going for coffee. Period. Maybe that will lead to a dinner and a movie date. Maybe not. Maybe dinner and a movie will lead to nudity. Maybe not. But don't even think that far ahead. Take it one step at a time. Relax. Eventually, one of them will lead to something, but don't rush through everything. If you mentally say, "We're just going for a drink, and that's that," maybe it will free you up to be ore yourself, which generally makes us all more attractive in the long run.

How do you ask a woman out without sounding like a total tool? Can you just walk up to a girl who you think is cute and say, "Hi, I think you're cute. Would you like to go out sometime?" Sure! Why not! Yes, some people really do just come out and state, "I really like you, sexually. Do you feel the same?" I once, at about your age, knocked on the dorm room door of a woman I barely knew, but I thought was interested, and simply said, "Would you like to have sex with me?" It cut right to the chase without either of us having to read any signs. I certainly don't recommend this for all situations, nor would I try it in all situations, but in this one it worked perfectly.

Again, in that isolated case it worked well, but it's all situational. I did know her slightly already. I wouldn't just walk up to a stranger and say that. On second thought, I wouldn't use the word cute, either. Words can really carry the day. Try beautiful, sensual, maybe even "erotic" if you really want to get her attention. Cute sounds so high school. Cute sounds like the girl next door, and most women who are being asked out don't want to be the girl next door. Find some adult words to impress with.

You also might want to think about moving beyond her looks when you're making the first move. Someone you just know from class may be a little put off if your first move is based on her physical appearance. Try, "I really liked what you said in class about... If I bought you lunch could we talk about that?" Appeal to her brain, and see where it goes from there.

You say in your situations it's never specifically stated its a date. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe if you're interested in someone that way, you need to come right out and say, "Would you like to go on a date for dinner?" Put it right out there. You're saying, "I'm not interested in being 'just friends,' I'm interested in you in other ways too." Set the stage. If they say, "Thanks, no," well, at least you know and won't waste any more time and you can get on with your life.

And don't fall into the trap of thinking everyone here, inlcuding myself is a Zen Master at this. I'm not, at least. I've just been in you shoes and can pass along some advice based on my own experience. Relax friend. It's all a journey. Take it as it comes, worry about today today and tomorrow when it gets here.
 
I know it sounds trite, but you really have to be yourself.

And you have to be willing to not be "on the prowl" and looking for women.

The patience to let things develop and not force them is key, as is being able to read a person. Also being able to talk to someone on their level, instead of trying to lead them to a certain place.

The best conversations I have with people almost always start from a shared experience and being on the same wavelength with someone. It's a huge turn off to be "led" toward a question, much more interesting to be talking to someone and enjoying it so much that you don't want it to end.

Also, timing is helpful, turns out a lot of women respond, but a guy can't pick up the signals she's giving out, and if his timing is off, she's insulted or weary.
 
Welcome to the club.

Bren you are not alone. There are many guys and gals just like you. I was one at your age and in many ways I still am today despite dating, marriage, humor, education, knowledge, understanding, confidence, a great sex life and even greater pleasures still ahead and a true self confidence that is only limited by my shyness or fear of being a fool or rejection when it comes to dating and asking potential females for a date that may lead to romance. The illogic of the feelings is so plain for all to see yet so real that I have accepted it as part of me.

There are some suggestions I can give you to help you control this emotion that might also be limiting you. Some are easy to understand while others may not be. People that arnt shy when dealing about dating issues with the opposite sex are likely scoffing at us because they think we are chickens or are not gods gift to sex as they are. Anyone who suggest just be confident and bold needs to realize its not that simple. Shyness is a weird fear for otherwise confident people.

I have found a couple of ways to at times deal with mine. One is to recognize that the shyness isnt reasonable but based on some deep seeded thought that its better to live alone than risk being rejected, laughed at or to bother someone else. So I will play a trick back, I wont be thinking that by asking her out I intend to seek romance, intimacy and sex but merely seeing how I can help her overcome her shyness. I know its a silly mind game I am playing on me but it can help avoid me feeling those shy feelings.

Another way is for me to admit my weakness openly using both honesty and self a bit of humor about myself. I find humor to be a easy way to take the focus off me by directing it at me. By admitting my limitations I can avoid letting them have as much power over me and also maybe be respected because Im showing that Im Ok and probably they are too. In other words take the power away from your fears.

Lastly is a way that works but I cant say I recommend. Shyness is like a fear in a way but its so illogical that those who dont have it, dont understand it. Some kids are afraid to take their first jump into the deep end of the swimming pool. All the logic and advise in the world doesnt convince them. Sometimes a well timed push from someone else does the trick. Risky but it does work. In my case a good friend saw an opportunity set me up on a blind date. Ughh.. how I didnt want to do it and went through every excuse in the book and I went down with a fight. The good part is I got past striking out. I admit to being a little over lonely and fell in love in almost no time and like a fool I married the first sexy girl I rubbed noses with and took home too late. Dont get me wrong the marriage was great but I should have tried several blind dates and sewed some wild oats or at least dated a girl with a seeing eye dog and given her a slim chance to escape or let the dog bury my wild oat bag where I wouldnt have found it.

Remember too that even though we all are special and a little different from the next person we all are made from the same dust and share many of the same hopes and fears. She may not be as nervous, shy, and scared as you or I feel but she has some of those feelings too. The blind date got me away from striking out but I had to run the bases from there. Im still shy and always will be in that way and depending on the situation anyone may be shy. I wont do a blind date again but a blind fold date would be fun. She has to wear it this time, last time I did I got put in a porn video as John Holmes stunt double.
 
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in regards to not sounding like a tool:
just don't say stupid shit. don't ask her "hey, you want a mustache ride?"

something simple like "Hey, I saw you from across the room, and want to get to know you better. could I get your number so I can take you out to dinner sometime this/next week?"

all that elaborate crap they do in the movies to get a girl to go out with them...its all crap. its a movie, not reality. In a movie, singing "you've lost that lovin feeling" will get you any woman in the movie world.

but in reality, you'll get laughed at (unless she's already your girl, and you're both really drunk, then pulling that stunt can be cute....but you already had the girl)
 
SubNebGuy said:
in regards to not sounding like a tool:
just don't say stupid shit. don't ask her "hey, you want a mustache ride?"

something simple like "Hey, I saw you from across the room, and want to get to know you better. could I get your number so I can take you out to dinner sometime this/next week?"

all that elaborate crap they do in the movies to get a girl to go out with them...its all crap. its a movie, not reality. In a movie, singing "you've lost that lovin feeling" will get you any woman in the movie world.

but in reality, you'll get laughed at (unless she's already your girl, and you're both really drunk, then pulling that stunt can be cute....but you already had the girl)

I don't agree with this one totally, though up to a point I do. I love guys who make me laugh. If you've got a sense of humor and you're going to do something funny or charming because you like funny or charming things, that gets you points.

But yes, overdoing it, trying to go past persuasive into pressuring someone and making a scene...

So doing something for her, good. Doing something for the crowd, and expecting her to respond because they're there and not based on how she feels, bad.
 
Be yourself. In all aspects. Trying to figure out something witty or coming up with the perfect approach is just another socially driven expectation. Approach her as you truly are and if she is not interested, she's not. People get too wrapped up in the game to see all this for what it is. Honest communication. Start with that and you will find someone that suits you and vice-versa.

As far as dating success or failure, don't put too much into it. Let things progress naturally and you'll enjoy it more. Trying to force it or putting expectations on it only rushes the whole process and you will find yourself overly stressed and not enjoying the person that you are with.


The best example of all of this?

I asked a friend of mine out to coffee. I was just off of work and needing to eat and relax before heading home. I didn't see it as a date as much as I saw it as an extension of our social meetings that we held in common. I picked her up and took her to the small diner that I like. We sat, had dinner, and shared some coffee. Afterwards when I took her home, she was somewhat curious as to what just happened. I told very simply that we just had coffee.
We ended up seeing each other for quite some time and there was never any pressure to be anything other than what we were comfortable in being.

Moral of that story? I started honestly and openly, enjoying the time with her and what we had in common. It turned into a very healthy relationship with out demand or expectations.
 
SubNebGuy said:
all that elaborate crap they do in the movies to get a girl to go out with them...its all crap. its a movie, not reality. In a movie, singing "you've lost that lovin feeling" will get you any woman in the movie world.

but in reality, you'll get laughed at (unless she's already your girl, and you're both really drunk, then pulling that stunt can be cute....but you already had the girl)

Oh wow! You triggered a long, lost memory.

I had a guy sing "you've lost that loving feeling" once. I was 17, he was 18 and he had a backup singer too. I found it to be one of the sweetest things a guy (he wasn't a man then) has ever done for me. Amazingly, I had forgotten that until I read this post yet I can tell you what I was wearing, where I was, every little detail....

Before you ask, did I go out with him? No, I didn't. A close friend of mine was really into the guy and I would never have done that to her :)
 
Just an additional thought (ok, pot? kettle? 'cause I get NO play, let's be honest) - I have "friend dates" all the time (usually with long-standing friends and/or people who are obviously not romantic interests because they're married or the wrong gender or the wrong orientation or whatever). However, what might distinguish something from a very platonic "hey, I like you as a person, let's hang out" (which, by the way, don't knock that! you don't have to knock boots with someone to have gained something from spending time with them... plus lots of couples start out as friends) might be some gentle flirting, or a nice compliment.

For example:

[Young woman from your class hanging out somewhere]

You: Hi [Woman]! How's it going?

She: Great, you?

You: I'm good! Hey, you look really nice today! That's a good color on you! (or whatever)

She: Thanks!

You: What are you up to later on?

And so forth. My point is - maybe the girls think it's a friend thing because you didn't communicate that you were interested on some level. Compliments, assuming they're not too cheesy and/or skeevy (e.g., cornball pickup lines, unless you're good at doing the over-the-top humor thing), but just honest and simple, might be one way to communicate that. You know, flirt a little bit. Other ways might include making sure you're making good eye contact, smiling, leaning forward, all the non-verbals that say that you're paying attention.

Just a thought - it's an interesting thread, anyway, because you SO aren't alone in this, and I'm sure lots of other people are picking up tips here, too.
 
A Britney Spears with the mind of an Einstein

Just based on the additional past experiences you've related to us, I don't think you're doing anything wrong per se. It sounds like Istanbul Woman is still trying to figure out what SHE wants. You had no control over that. Would have been nice if you were on the same wavelength, and for a while it seemed like you were, but in the end, it turns out you're not. Oh well. 'Dems the breaks. The woman from the European trip with the abusive boyfriend who shacked up with someone else instead of you? Clearly she has some personal issues to work out. You have no control over that either. It looked like you were falling in love during a heady experience (a trip in Europe) but in the end, you weren't... or at least she wasn't.

(And frankly, no mater how nice or attractive she may be, you don't want to be intimately involved with someone who has not yet resolved those kind of serious issues for herself yet. You think your current situation is frustrating? That would have been 100 times worse.)

At your age (college, early-mid 20's) a lot of people are just plain weird or flightly, and seemingly incoherent or changing their minds every day because they haven't worked their shit out yet, and are still trying to figure out who they are and what they want. It might be that you're ahead of the curve, and looking for something that your peers aren't ready for yet. Hell, at MY age (mid 40's) there are a lot of people who haven't worked their shit out yet! You think it's frustrating trying to take things to another level with someone who hasn't even entered the work force yet? Try imagining that experience with someone old enough to know better by now. That's REALLY sad.

I think you're just getting a clear picture of what you want, and the fact that it's taking some time to happen is rattling you into thinking it's something you're doing wrong. Maybe it is, and honestly, who among us couldn't benefit from some self-evaluation like you're doing? But overall you might just be experiencing a "dry" period that's going to take some time to get through to find the "right" one.

Rome wasn't built in a day, you have to squeeze a lot of melons to find the ripe ones, you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find your princess... I could go on with the cliches but I think you get the picture. And at least you're out there trying instead of sitting around waiting for a Britney Spears with the mind of Albert Einstein to knock on your door! I'm telling you, you're farther along than you think.
 
Part 1, Istanbul girl - all that talking and laughing...you should have kissed her that day you spent all day together and had coffee for 6 hours. You know, there's always that moment when you're laughing and you catch each other's eye, still laughing? That's when you lock eyes with her and just kiss her. At the very least, you should have given her a knock-her-socks-off kiss at the end of the night so she'd have something to think about in Istanbul...seize the moment! You can't expect her to think of you romantically if you only act like a friend.

Part 2, presentation girl in class - saying, "I'd like to continue this conversation, are you free for coffee" is a friend move. Saying, "I'd like to see you again, can I take you out for coffee?" is a date move. It's not too late - do it the next time you chat.

revolution 724 is totally on the mark - you have to FLIRT! I think people are afraid to put themselves on the line by flirting and being obvious about their attraction, so end up skirting the edge of the friend date zone by pursuing, and then never doing anything date-like once you are out with them.
 
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BrenVarouse said:
You see, I'm just worried that doing those things would be too forward. Or playing too much into the stereotypical male/female roles (I'm a feminist). Not to mention how INCREDIBLY awkward it would be (and has been for me) to try and kiss someone and have them recoil because they aren't interested in you in the same way. But you're right. I should have tried to kiss her that first day. But I'm just so damn shy. Its like John Cleese's character says in A Fish Called Wanda when Jamie Curtis asks him why British people are so stuck up. He explains that its because they're mortified of being embarassed. A comment like "how's the wife and kids?" seems pleasant enough, until you find out they burned to death in a fire the week before hand (his example). I guess I just feel that way around women. But it sounds like your saying being bold is okay/good? :confused:

As to part 2: Typical dumb guy here. I never would have guessed that option one meant friend and option 2 meant date. Thanks for that advice.

Jersey - I agree. Its probably better in the long run that I didn't get involved with the girl I went to Europe with.

On your other point: I suppose its that I feel like I'm missing out on something. I don't mind so much that I'm not finding Ms. Right right now. But the dry spell is bugging me. Other people my age meet people, go out, have sex, break up. I've never had that experience. My relationships have always grown out of friendships and ended in some calamity. I need to have a "normal" college relationship like everyone around me is. I'd like to kiss a few more frogs and squeeze a few more melons while Rome is under construction. Because right now, I'm kissing zero frogs and squeezing zero melons. Even if it doesn't work out, I've still had a relationship that I can learn from. And when I do meet Ms. Right, she will have, in all likelyhood, had the college experience I'm missing out on. Which means that will be a part of her life I can never relate to and will never understand.

I have to go. I'll be back later to ponder this some more.

Well, when you say you want to kiss some frogs, you have to actually kiss people, don't you? Yes, you risk rejection, recoil, whatever, but if you never flirt or try to kiss anyone, it's not likely someone is going to think of you as a romantic partner.

You can't just hang around being a friend and expect women to start falling in love with you. You actually have to flirt and let her know you think she's fascinating and charming and beautiful; otherwise, you're not giving her any reason to feel a little thrill or 'rush' when she sees you.

Yes, be bold! I'm a feminist - doesn't mean I don't like it when a guy lets me know he's attracted to me. Women are attracted to confidence!

And option 2 means date because 1) you've said you want to see HER again, and it's not just the meaningful conversation that's the draw...SHE's the draw, and 2) you're asking her OUT, not just to go get coffee together...going out with her is the draw, not the coffee and conversation.

And before you ask, yes, you have to pay for her coffee. If she offers to pay, tell her she can get it next time. You can let her pay the tip if you're at dinner, but otherwise, you pay the first time you go out, and maybe a few other times...to pamper her, not because of old non-feminist roles. You want to treat her special, not like all the other girls you are friends with. You also want to stand out from the other guys she's friends with.
 
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Don't bother. Just work hard in school, get a good job, save your money, and get hookers.
 
Have to agree with what another commenter said - sounds like Istanbul Girl was a bit immature and flighty, and wasn't quite sure what she wanted. And yes, also as a (sort of militant, even) feminist, I do think you ought to have made some kind of move. If it's too scary or seems too presumptuous to lunge for the kiss, you can always say something like, "I'd really like to kiss you." I've done this before, and the person said yes, so there you are. Don't confuse not turning into an octopus and groping anything in a skirt with not ever making a physical move with a woman you like and who appears to like you back.

And you know what? Yep, sometimes you will get rejected. I am so sorry that you have to read this on a message board. But yes, you might get shot down. You might even do nothing wrong at all and still get shot down. You're right, it might be awkward and uncomfortable and you might not feel all that great if that happens. It is legitimately possible. So?

One of the hardest lessons in life I've had to learn is that you cannot ACTUALLY die of embarrassment. You can feel like you're going to, but you don't actually die. And once you've learned that the embarrassment may be painful sometimes, but is never actually lethal, you start building up more of a tolerance for it. Some people have an easier time shrugging it off than others, it's true. But maybe if you can realistically ask yourself, "Ok, so what if this person DOES say no/pull away/whatever?" and realize that the answer is more along the lines of, "well, I guess I'll just have to try again with someone else" and less along the lines of, "I will live my life in a well of pain and loneliness because I will be so shattered," then you'll be more likely to take the risk, and thus, reap the benefits if it works out.

Because you know? Every single person in the entire world feels awkward and embarrassed sometimes. It's just a feeling like any other, and one that blessedly passes after a while. Might even makes a nice change from "lonely," once in a while.
 
re: "Just be yourself"

In my best Comic Book Store guy voice: "Worst advice ever."

That's good advice if you are a smooth dude, but not great advice if you are a pasty skinned, neurotic Woody Allen type.

Don't be a phony. Don't be a fake. Don't be an ass.

But don't be your regular old self, either. Be the confident, sexy, irresistible guy that you want to be. Guys rule. Girls drool.

You're a feminst. Great. But don't be a doormat. Get most of that "girls want someone funny and sensitive" crap out of your head. You've already seen it doesn't work. You get to be good-converastion-guy" while they do the horizontal mambo with some stupid bo-hunk on the way home after your date. EQUAL does not mean "THE SAME".

What young women SAY thay want, THINK they want, and demonstrate they ACTUALLY want through their actions are not all the same thing.

Guys who are a-holes will have ladies doing back flips to please them while nice guys get the "lets-just-be-friends" speech and get treated like a doormat.

Mark my words. It ain't PC but it is the truth.

Be confident. Be cocky. Be a little aloof. Adopta take it orleave it attitude. You are large and in charge. You know who you are and you know what you want. If they start playing head games, or if they don't know what they want, then you are ready to walk.

Be nice. Be respectful at all times. But don't be a tool.

BTW, the guy that gets lots of dates gets turned down at least 5 times for every time he picks up. It is a numbers game.

The ladies want someone confident whom they can respect. BE confident. ACT confident even when you don't feel it. BE the kind of MAN worthy of respect. Be kind, but never weak.

Don't be a girlfriend. That's what girlfriends are for.

Don't act like she is one of your guy friends. That is what your guys friends are for.

Quit thinking so much. Think less. Act more.

oh yeah.... and spankings. Although often loathe to admit it, most chicks dig spankings. :D :D ;)
 
You're definitely psyching yourself out of asking any girl out. You're overthinking. When you're with them, don't TRY to be funny - try to listen to them and reply without thinking about being funny or whether you should be asking them out or anything else.

Flirting..."I think you look beautiful in that dress" can be friendly and not at all flirtatious. It's HOW you say it that makes the difference. If you're smiling at her and looking into her eyes with admiration, it's more of flirtatious. If you add, "it make your eyes sparkle" it's even more flirtatious.

If you meet a woman from one of your classes and she asks how you're doing, you can add a little flirtation by saying something like, "I'm exhausted from exams and stayng up til 3 to finish that paper for class." Then, look her in the eye and smile and add, "Chatting with you has been the best part of my day, actually."

Flirting is about expressing your admiration for her. It takes practice, but if you keep doing it, it will start to come naturally.
 
Someone quoted Wayne's World on a thread in the AH - I thought you might appreciate it:

From Wayne's World -

Garth Algar: Uhm, Wayne? What do you do if every time you see this one incredible woman, you think you're gonna hurl?

Wayne Campbell: I say hurl. If you blow chunks and she comes back, she's yours. But if you spew and she bolts, then it was never meant to be.

:D
 
Mr.Mann is pretty right on in his description of what we women want, even if we won't admit it.

We DO want someone sweet and charming and nice....

But we also want someone cool, confident, and sexy.

See, we're messed up. We want to feel special, that our guy is nice and sweet to only us because we are worth it, because we've changed him on some level. Only I can ask him buy tampons for me, because I'm the most special girl he has ever encountered. I have something he won't find in any other girl, and that makes him so sweet only when he is around me.

It's very uncomfortable to have a guy trailing you around like a little puppy dog because you smiled at him. Needy is bad, really bad.

I need to like the guy the same amount as he likes me, or more than he likes me. When any infatuation is obviously un-balanced things feel awkward and uncomfortable.

Seems like you want to ask out any girl who smiles or says a syllable to you.

I used to be like that. I would have a crush on any guy who looked my way.

My big advice?

Wait till there's chemistry.

Yes, chemistry.

Or at least a friendship on some level, more than 4 minutes of small talk, that could maybe become chemistry.

Just do your thing.

Because that's way hotter than than being a puppy dog.

You can do it!!!



Good Luck Stud!!!
 
As for all the "don't be yourself" advice, I think that works short term

But this gentleman wants a long-term relationship.

And that means being yourself. Because otherwise you're going to have a train wreck.
 
Seize the day (or the girl)

On second thought, I've changed my mind. I, like you, think too much most of the time, and while I may be able to talk about this with you in detail, I think Norajane and Revolution have given you better advice and are right on the money. It's time to stop thinking and start doing. Seriously. It's as simple as that.

You can sit on the bench and strategize all you want, or you can just go get in the game and see what happens. Stop thinking about what's right or wrong, and what happens if you say or do this, that or the other thing, and actually go DO it. Just go do it. You'll figure it out along the way.

You'll strike out sometimes, and sometimes you ARE going to be embarassed. Count on it. But as someone else observed, you can't actually die of embarassment. You only think you can. But sometimes you'll connect, and trust me, it's a great feeling when you do connect, and the embarassing episodes will instantly fade away.

Buckminster Fuller once said that it's a fallacy to think that humans know everything and can be perfect the first time out of the gate we were built with this wonderful internal mechanism whereby we learn by trial and error, or words to that effect, so you gotta go DO something to learn what works for you.

Bro, the clock is ticking. The spring semester is almost over. Flowers are blooming, bees are pollinating them, bathing suits are coming out of the closet, and hormones are in the air. It's time to go HAVE that college experience you want.
 
my twopenceworth...

..you sound a little too eager to me. its a long time since I was at uni, but it was always the girl who did the inviting. you need to be comfortable speaking to women without rating them as possible sexual partners, because we know when a man is predatory, and although flattering, its almost always comic too. dont know if it happens in Vancouver, but speed dating could work for you..you're looking for chemistry, after all, and at least everyone there has signalled their availability. and there's always internet dating. before you groan, let me tell you that it worked for me. you get past all the biographical stuff before you even speak on the phone. and when you do meet, you might already have enough in common to get over the initial nerves! good luck
 
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