Head-hopping

[NikkiSparrow]

My first post in the forums... hi everyone.

I've been writing a long time now, I've written multiple novels (not erotic) and plenty of smut in private. When I write smut, though, I tend to let myself off the hook for certain 'writing sins' I wouldn't otherwise tolerate in my published work, or in work I am workshopping/critiquing. One of the things I let myself do is shift perspective on what is happening between characters.

I write erotica primarily for my own edification, but publishing here I do want my work to be enjoyed by others, and I do seek honest productive criticism. I understand that "head-hopping" can be disorienting for some, depending on how it's handled. I guess what I'm curious about is, is it distracting from a sex scene where both* involved partners are having feelings and thoughts, or does it heighten the reader's immersion knowing what both* characters are experiencing?

For me, I think both* characters are feeling things at much the same time, and it's incredibly limiting for me to stick to one POV during a sex scene, since one* of the characters is going to be totally neglected if I'm being strict about POV. In a novel I would not head-hop at all, no matter what is happening, but then I don't write many sex scenes in my longer, more serious works.

Does anyone else worry about doing this? I'd welcome any feedback on my own stories on this issue—if I do it too much or if it's not as bad/distracting as I'm worrying over.

*(or more, as applicable)

 

[TheRedChamber]

I've read a lot of bad head hopping sex scenes on Lit. But if you are aware of what you are doing and why, maybe it could be okay.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Hi Nikki, and welcome.

I'm assuming you're writing in first person. To me, third person isn't such a problem. There has been some discussion around this, and from memory the consensus as long as it's clear who is in the POV, it can work.

Only one way to be sure.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Make the changes in pov clear, and don't do it too often, would be my suggestion. Give the reader a good long stint in each head, before changing.

I often use close third person narration if I want to show both points of view, but again, I stick with one head for a while.

If I'm writing first person, I'd never have two points of view in the same story. That would just seem "wrong" to me.

 

[MelissaBaby]

My first post in the forums... hi everyone.

I've been writing a long time now, I've written multiple novels (not erotic) and plenty of smut in private. When I write smut, though, I tend to let myself off the hook for certain 'writing sins' I wouldn't otherwise tolerate in my published work, or in work I am workshopping/critiquing. One of the things I let myself do is shift perspective on what is happening between characters.

I write erotica primarily for my own edification, but publishing here I do want my work to be enjoyed by others, and I do seek honest productive criticism. I understand that "head-hopping" can be disorienting for some, depending on how it's handled. I guess what I'm curious about is, is it distracting from a sex scene where both* involved partners are having feelings and thoughts, or does it heighten the reader's immersion knowing what both* characters are experiencing?

For me, I think both* characters are feeling things at much the same time, and it's incredibly limiting for me to stick to one POV during a sex scene, since one* of the characters is going to be totally neglected if I'm being strict about POV. In a novel I would not head-hop at all, no matter what is happening, but then I don't write many sex scenes in my longer, more serious works.

Does anyone else worry about doing this? I'd welcome any feedback on my own stories on this issue—if I do it too much or if it's not as bad/distracting as I'm worrying over.

*(or more, as applicable)

In my opinion, the taboo against head hopping in sex scenes is entirely premised on the assumption that the purpose of the scene is to provide masturbation fodder for the reader and it's a bad idea to break their stroking rhythm.

 

[PennameWombat]

I’ve heard the term ’third person intimate’ mentioned by a couple of mainstream writers. As best I understood, in involves changing POV dynamically via one character making an explicit ‘handoff’ to another. By explicit, it’s not by saying “you’re up,” but one character is described as looking intently and speaking directly to a second character (regardless of how many are present) and that second character takes up the POV with the next sentence (split into a new paragraph, but without the usual chapter, section or page break). I can’t say I’ve ever read a work like this, and in the article the author warned “it can go wrong quite easily.”

 

[SimonDoom]

If you are telling the story in third person omniscient POV, it's OK to do this if you don't overdo it and as long as the POV is clear. What gets readers riled is when it gets confusing or when the POV goes back and forth so much and so fast that it gets harder to relate to one character's POV.

I usually switch POV only at a scene break. But not always. My most popular Literotica story is one where the POV switches back and forth frequently between the two participants in an intimate scene. I received no negative comments about the POV.

In most contemporary fiction that I've read, POV usually switches at the chapter or scene break. A good example is the Game of Thrones novels, where each chapter is told from the POV of a different main character (in third person, not first person).

Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove is a good example of a story that deftly switches around POV, sometimes within scenes. Usually in a scene he focuses on one character's POV, but he doesn't limit himself. It's a good example of how it's done (won the Pulitzer Prize for it and it's an incredibly entertaining yarn).

 

[ElectricBlue]

I’ve heard the term ’third person intimate’ mentioned by a couple of mainstream writers. As best I understood, in involves changing POV dynamically via one character making an explicit ‘handoff’ to another.

I've not seen third person intimate defined essentially as a changing pov. My understanding is that it gets in as close to a character's thoughts and feelings as first person does, but with all the narrative advantages of a third person narrator - including the ability to change pov if you want to.

I use it a lot, because it does give you the intimacy of first person with the benefits of third - but I tend to stay close to one character.

 

[SimonDoom]

I’ve heard the term ’third person intimate’ mentioned by a couple of mainstream writers. As best I understood, in involves changing POV dynamically via one character making an explicit ‘handoff’ to another. By explicit, it’s not by saying “you’re up,” but one character is described as looking intently and speaking directly to a second character (regardless of how many are present) and that second character takes up the POV with the next sentence (split into a new paragraph, but without the usual chapter, section or page break). I can’t say I’ve ever read a work like this, and in the article the author warned “it can go wrong quite easily.”

Here's a link to an article that discusses "third person intimate," and I think it's helpful. But the author does NOT advocate head hopping or trading off points of view.

The story of mine that I alluded to in the post above, Late Night On The Loveseat With Mom, more or less does what you describe: one character does something and thinks about it, and then "hands off" the point of view to the other character. I narrate both their points of view as the action gets more heated. I think it worked for that story, even though it's not what I usually do.

 

[Bubo_bubo]

Here's a link to an article that discusses "third person intimate," and I think it's helpful. But the author does NOT advocate head hopping or trading off points of view.

The story of mine that I alluded to in the post above, Late Night On The Loveseat With Mom, more or less does what you describe: one character does something and thinks about it, and then "hands off" the point of view to the other character. I narrate both their points of view as the action gets more heated. I think it worked for that story, even though it's not what I usually do.

Hmm. I think you forgot the link.

 

[SimonDoom]

Hmm. I think you forgot the link.

Whoops! Here it is: https://www.tahlianewland.com/writing-in-third-person-intimate/

 

[Bramblethorn]

In my opinion, the taboo against head hopping in sex scenes is entirely premised on the assumption that the purpose of the scene is to provide masturbation fodder for the reader and it's a bad idea to break their stroking rhythm.

I've encountered the same taboo outside the context of erotica, so I don't think that's the whole of it.

AFAICT the premise is more that staying in one person's head helps in building empathy with that character. I think that's more true for stories where limited knowledge is important to the perspective - "I wish I knew if she really loves me" as a source of tension, that kind of thing.

OTOH, done right, head-hopping offers the opportunity for some interesting contrasts. I don't think it has to be bad writing; I do think a lot of writers slip into it by accident without having an idea of how they're going to make the best use of that dual perspective.

 

[Trionyx]

Many wise words above. I concur with the admonitions to avoid too frequent head-hopping and to make it clear who is thinking what. I look forward to your submissions here.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I did the same in some of my stories. I think it is always good for character development if reader can see how different characters see the same situation.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Gee... I didn't know that was illegal? I do it all the time, but I let the read know that the POV has changed.

I have several... actually more than several stories, erotic and non-erotic where I did that. I have also read several books by big name authors who have done this. Of course, if you don't want to do that, write in 3rd person POV.

 

[NotWise]

To me, head-hopping in a third-person sex scene seems pretty natural. You can avoid it in first person by making the narrator empathetic and concerned with their lover's experience.

I have a whole series that's written in third person limited from the woman's point of view. I realized by the time I reached the third story or so that I was head-hopping in the sex scenes; I went to the point of view of the partner who was taking the most active part.

I reread everything with an eye to changing it, and decided to leave it as-is. The head hopping happened quickly. It wasn't noticeable, even to me. And no reader ever complained.

 

[Jmanchu]

I feel you on them head hoppin struggles. Head hopping is fun to write, but it can leave a mess. I have an unfinished highschool teacher/student story(second draft) that I've left in the back burner trying to clean up the sex scene and figure out how I want to write it while leaving it decently readable. I didn't want to stick to one POV, and I still don't, but figuring out how to do that shit right while doing the shit I wanted to do had me scratching my head in frustration. The sad part? Everything else in that story is either done(with some serious improvements thanks to beta reader suggestions) or readily figured out. It's possible, I think it and could be worth it too if you really want to write it that way, but prepare for headaches if you want it to come out refined and polished.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

My first post in the forums... hi everyone.

I've been writing a long time now, I've written multiple novels (not erotic) and plenty of smut in private. When I write smut, though, I tend to let myself off the hook for certain 'writing sins' I wouldn't otherwise tolerate in my published work, or in work I am workshopping/critiquing. One of the things I let myself do is shift perspective on what is happening between characters.

I write erotica primarily for my own edification, but publishing here I do want my work to be enjoyed by others, and I do seek honest productive criticism. I understand that "head-hopping" can be disorienting for some, depending on how it's handled. I guess what I'm curious about is, is it distracting from a sex scene where both* involved partners are having feelings and thoughts, or does it heighten the reader's immersion knowing what both* characters are experiencing?

For me, I think both* characters are feeling things at much the same time, and it's incredibly limiting for me to stick to one POV during a sex scene, since one* of the characters is going to be totally neglected if I'm being strict about POV. In a novel I would not head-hop at all, no matter what is happening, but then I don't write many sex scenes in my longer, more serious works.

Does anyone else worry about doing this? I'd welcome any feedback on my own stories on this issue—if I do it too much or if it's not as bad/distracting as I'm worrying over.

*(or more, as applicable)

When I write in the first person, I dialog-hop rather than head-hop. Will characters verbalize their every thought? Probably not, but I can usually get their feelings and thoughts communicated effectively enough for the scenes to work.

 

[NikkiSparrow]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

I definitely do not write these in first person. First-person head-hopping would be really jarring and I can't imagine that being pulled off well.

If anyone would be kind enough to look at this and tell me if my way of doing it isn't too disruptive, I'd really appreciate it (and any other feedback would be welcome as well).

Red Sparrow Ch. 03

 

[JuanSeiszFitzHall]

I become more aware of head-hopping during rewrites, and I think it can enhance a sex scene if done properly. To me, ‘properly’ in a third-person narrative usually means starting a (short) paragraph from one character’s perspective, identified by either name or traditional gendered pronoun (sorry, I’m old), describing that person’s sensations in the moment, and maybe also awareness of what a partner is doing or seems to be feeling. Only after that might I then verbalize that person’s unspoken thoughts. Then, in the next paragraph, I do the same for the other (or next) character (yes, I write a fair amount in Group Sex). This can set up an important story conflict if one person is driven wild by the sex while another is all ‘yeah, whatevs,’ and neither is clear during the sex what the others think.

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=5116173&page=submissions

 

[ElectricBlue]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

I definitely do not write these in first person. First-person head-hopping would be really jarring and I can't imagine that being pulled off well.

If anyone would be kind enough to look at this and tell me if my way of doing it isn't too disruptive, I'd really appreciate it (and any other feedback would be welcome as well).

Red Sparrow Ch. 03

I read it, and thought the first transition from Nikki's thoughts to Karol's was quite smoothly done, even though it was only a short few paragraphs with his pov. Since Nikki fell asleep, that premise worked, to see her with his eyes. It wasn't really necessary, but it worked okay - at that point, I was identifying as the reader with Nikki.

You then made it very clear, in the first paragraph after the * * * * break, that you were back with Nikki, where you stayed, except for one short paragraph that threw me out, because you went to Anya and back to Nikki too quickly.

That shift was unnecessary, I think, and it completely lost the flow for me, because it was, "Wait, what, did the pov just shift?" and I went back to read it again, twice. That shift was disruptive, like a first person head hop, bad example thereof.

If you then shifted later, to Anya, I didn't notice because by that point I was skim reading - so if you did shift, I didn't spot it. My skim reading, though, was reflective of another problem completely, which from a story telling point of view is a worse one - I was losing interest in the story.

Was that because that first head hop, to Anya, lost the (until then) smooth narrative flow? I don't know, couldn't really say, but on the strength of this single sample... maybe it was enough. Or it might have been the fundamental premise of the story wasn't grabbing me, and I'd have quietly left the story anyway.

Conclusion - for me, a well signified point of view shift can work seamlessly; a sudden one doesn't. But If I was a beta reader or editor on that chapter, I'd have said, "Stay with Nikki the whole way. It's her story, stay with your heroine."

This is a good example, I think, where intimate third person narrative is easily as powerful as first person - provided you don't suddenly jump heads!

 

[NikkiSparrow]

Electricblue66, thanks so much for your thoughts.

I can see why there would a loss of interest in the sex scene without knowing the context of who these people are (although you get a good picture of who Anya is in this chapter). Diving into this third chapter without having read 1 and 2 would probably make this experience rather flat. Anyway, thank you for taking the time to critique.

I'd been giving myself permission to use the omniscient perspective a lot more loosely here because this is just writing for fun, but I will be more conscientious about it in future chapters.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

I mostly stick to first person as a writer, but as a reader, I look at POV changes in terms of purpose/intent/necessity. Is there something vital that can only come out by switching to another POV? Could it have been achieved through dialogue, or by maintaining the original POV and having that character observing the reactions of other characters?

I think a lot of writers use it as a cheat code to expediently convey what different characters are experiencing, but it’s not always elegant.

 

[KeithD]

I try to avoid it in my own writing.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Electricblue66, thanks so much for your thoughts.

I can see why there would a loss of interest in the sex scene without knowing the context of who these people are (although you get a good picture of who Anya is in this chapter). Diving into this third chapter without having read 1 and 2 would probably make this experience rather flat. Anyway, thank you for taking the time to critique.

Yes, there is obviously that. Not being into the subject matter is more on me than your writing or the story. If I'd started with the first chapter, my investment in your characters might been enough to overlook the head hop artefact in the third chapter. I'm pretty forgiving as a reader if the story catches me.

In this chapter though, it's told strongly enough from Nikki's pov, and I didn't think the short detours into the other heads added much.