Harry Potter meets Aleister Crowley

[pecksniff]

Rowling put all the standard folkloric and fantasy tropes into her books -- but, since it's all about wizards, why is there nothing based on the actual Western esoteric tradition?

 

[pecksniff]

I mean, it's not hard to imagine a plot where those ceremonial magicians like Crowley, who think they're real wizards, really are -- but not part of or knowledgeable of the mainstream wizarding world, they're just muggleborns with the talent who happened to discover real magic through trial and error, bound up with a lot of completely unnecessary bullshit -- that is, they are to Hogwarts wizards as alchemists to chemists -- which presents an endless headache to the Ministry of Magic. On the one hand these CMs make it that much harder for them to keep the wizarding world secret, and on the other hand they make wizards in general look silly or crazy.

 

[pecksniff]

Here's another thing: What is Harry Potter's religion? He has a godfather, which implies Christian baptism, and Hogwarts celebrates the Christian holidays. But unlike a real British public school, Hogwarts has no chapel, and nobody ever talks or even seems to think about Christianity. OTOH, the wizards do not seem to have any pagan religion of their own.

Terry Pratchett once wrote, "Witches didn't believe in gods. It was like believing in the postman."

 

[pecksniff]

And yet another thing: Why do wizards want to keep their existence secret from muggles? Hagrid says because if they knew, "They'd want magical solutions to their problems." Well, why not? In muggle society we have people called "professionals" -- physicians, attorneys, engineers, accountants -- people who by a combination of native talent and education are qualified to solve certain classes of problems. Professionals enjoy high social status and good pay. Wizards could simply be one more class of professionals.

 

[adrina]

Fictional wizard meets deluded nutcase.... who would tell the story? Can you believe a fictional wizard? We most certainly can't believe a nutcase.

Re magic hiding - I think it's a matter of them not getting any rest. People would pester them to death. Perhaps literally. We're not a civilized bunch en masse.

 

[oggbashan]

Most of the witches and wizard rituals were invented in my lifetime, during the 1960s.

Aleister Crowley was more a Satanist than a wizard. If J K Rowling had used him when writing children's books, her books wouldn't have sold. The most accurate portrayal of Crowley's methods was in books by Dennis Wheatley but he changed things to make the spells harmless.

But Crowley was self-deluding as were his followers.

 

[pecksniff]

Aleister Crowley was more a Satanist than a wizard. If J K Rowling had used him when writing children's books, her books wouldn't have sold.

Fundies insist her books are Satanic.

Of course, every elementary-school library in the world is full of stories about wizards and witches and dragons and elves. I don't see why Harry Potter should be singled out.

 

[hobbit.]

And yet another thing: Why do wizards want to keep their existence secret from muggles?

Because they are fraudulent self centred egotistical twats.

Fictional wizard meets deluded nutcase.... who would tell the story? Can you believe a fictional wizard? We most certainly can't believe a nutcase.

someone best break that gently to Boris Johnsons wife.

 

[pecksniff]

someone best break that gently to Boris Johnsons wife.

I suppose he is a nutcase, but what has his wife to do with it?

 

[pecksniff]

Most of the witches and wizard rituals were invented in my lifetime, during the 1960s.

Many go back to the Renaissance if not further.

Now, I'm referring to the "high magic" or ceremonial magic -- characterized by altars, swords, circles drawn on the floor, symbols drawn from astrology and alchemy, incantations in Greek, Latin and Hebrew, and elaborate theories about how magic works. The magic of educated men (never women).

There is also the "folk magic" -- incantations in vernacular languages, no equipment or ingredients not available to a medieval peasant, and no theory to speak of.

 

[pecksniff]

Of course, neither has much to do with the "fantasy fiction magic," which is based on the whim of the writer.

 

[oggbashan]

Many go back to the Renaissance if not further.

Now, I'm referring to the "high magic" or ceremonial magic -- characterized by altars, swords, circles drawn on the floor, symbols drawn from astrology and alchemy, incantations in Greek, Latin and Hebrew, and elaborate theories about how magic works. The magic of educated men (never women).

There is also the "folk magic" -- incantations in vernacular languages, no equipment or ingredients not available to a medieval peasant, and no theory to speak of.

Some do go back a long way, but most rituals used now are not based on the 'old' magic but on newly invented bullshit.

 

[Biggs_Darklighter]

I have a copy of Long Lost Friend. Its a spell book of "pow wow" magic from the midwest. Mostly 18th and 19th century stuff. Never tried one altho some of the cures for ailments seem legit old school shit.

 

[jaF0]

Can you believe a fictional wizard?

Whole buncha' churches seem to think so.

 

[jomar]

Maybe it’s time to lay off the butterbeer for a spell.

 

[oggbashan]

I have a copy of Long Lost Friend. Its a spell book of "pow wow" magic from the midwest. Mostly 18th and 19th century stuff. Never tried one altho some of the cures for ailments seem legit old school shit.

Many old books of magic are just remedies that did work before modern medicine.

They were classed as magic because the general public didn't know how they worked (and some were just working because of the placebo effect). If a medicine tasted nasty it must be doing somegthing? Right?

 

[pecksniff]

Some do go back a long way, but most rituals used now are not based on the 'old' magic but on newly invented bullshit.

Well, I don't suppose it's the kind of thing that can be reduced to a permanent and definitive canon.

The Harry Potter books, I note, also mostly ignore the whole of New Age thought, as well as Wicca and other forms of neopaganism -- a curious omission, since Gerald Gardner was British.

 

[pecksniff]

Many go back to the Renaissance if not further.

Now, I'm referring to the "high magic" or ceremonial magic -- characterized by altars, swords, circles drawn on the floor, symbols drawn from astrology and alchemy, incantations in Greek, Latin and Hebrew, and elaborate theories about how magic works. The magic of educated men (never women).

There is also the "folk magic" -- incantations in vernacular languages, no equipment or ingredients not available to a medieval peasant, and no theory to speak of.

On that note, nobody in the Potterverse ever appears to mention even the possibility of a general theory of magic. The most any wizard knows is a set of steps to accomplish a purpose, like recipes in a cookbook.

I highly recommend Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, by Eliezer Yudkowski. In this fanfic, Harry's Aunt Petunia marries an Oxford science professor instead of Vernon Dursley, and Harry, raised in that environment, grows up to be a scientific genius. When he discovers the wizarding world, the first thing he does is try to figure out a general theory of how magic works.

 

[jaF0]

I highly recommend ...

... you sit on it and spin Potsie.

 

[pecksniff]

Of course, any literary or intellectual criticism I make of Rowling must be measured against the fact that she is now richer than the Queen.

 

[pecksniff]

... you sit on it and spin Potsie.

That's more Dumbledore's thing.

 

[jomar]

That's more Dumbledore's thing.

That’s pretty apt and funny.

 

[pecksniff]

Re magic hiding - I think it's a matter of them not getting any rest. People would pester them to death. Perhaps literally. We're not a civilized bunch en masse.

Seems like they don't get any rest as it is. But, of course, it's essentially a war story. Mainly about children getting caught up in the conflicts of adults -- a theme which must resonate in a country that still retains vivid memories of WWII.