Happily engaged

[peachykeen]

Many women feel trust with an intensity and vehemence that still shocks me.
For many men I suspect its no big deal. What's all the fuss about.

Bollocks.

The VAST majority of those men who cheat would feel utterly devasted and betrayed if they found out that their wives were sneaking around on them, I am willing to wager.

 

[PinkOrchid]

 

[Zarafa71]

All true points

To Sheath - you do have some good points but none that I haven't already gone through myself, you did however surprise me that you feel so strongly about men cheating, and yet you have admitted to having sex with a married man ?? But I am not judging the choice is yours.
To Lust Engine, we have discussed marriage on many occasions mutually, believe me we have hectic lives, work shifts, volunteer work, and have both changed jobs about 3 times each in our time together, bought our first home, renovated, and financially we just never got around to organising a wedding. I guess sometimes you become complaicent.
To Mona - Without going into our whole life story, our relationship has never regressed, it has always progressed, we are very fortunate in many ways.
To Rough PLay - Unless I'm mistaken you seem to be the only male responding to this post ( But I may not have checked every profile) Your replies are almost like they have come from my Fiance'himself - have you been in this situation before?
Trusting friendships, you think you have a good one then, well.... I am a strong person in character very non judgemental and would never do something to someone that I wouldn't do to myself, it just hurts like hell. ':ma'd:' Yes he is a very good person, who obviously has a weekness, and I have always been the stronger half. Yes I have had many sincere apologies, and Ivé never seen a man cry so hard on so many occasions in my life. I have given him the opportunity to leave and he doesn't want too, ( I know you all think ofcourse he won't go he's got it sweet) But I needed to know that he is ready for a rough ride because it has been very emotionally trying and has taken us alot of strength to get this far and the councellor is very supportive of any decision we make, and assists us to understand our thoughts. I have made it very clear if it happens again I'm gone, as I believe my anger will far outweigh my hurt.
What the future holds? take each day as it comes, and hopefully try and rebuild a trust? Who knows, with this war we could all be blown up tomorrow ??

 

[BirdsWife]

Re: All true points

Yes I have had many sincere apologies, and Ivé never seen a man cry so hard on so many occasions in my life.

Yeah, I could say the exact same thing about the physically abusive boyfriend I had when I was a teenager. I wasted a year and a half on the loser before I grew a backbone and left his sorry ass, but I still consider myself fortunate because I learned my lesson at a young age and before there were any kids involved.

I have made it very clear if it happens again I'm gone, as I believe my anger will far outweigh my hurt.

I pray that you really will have the strength to do this because at this stage of the game I seriously doubt that tiger will be changing his stripes.

Good luck to you. You're going to need it either way.

 

[Gilly Bean]

Re: All true points

To Lust Engine, we have discussed marriage on many occasions mutually, believe me we have hectic lives, work shifts, volunteer work, and have both changed jobs about 3 times each in our time together, bought our first home, renovated, and financially we just never got around to organising a wedding. I guess sometimes you become complaicent.

And it's what, less hectic when you marry? My husband of 5 years and I got married with less than a month of planning, and did it at the justice of peace with no honey moon. If your excuse is no time, then why stay together?

To Mona - Without going into our whole life story, our relationship has never regressed, it has always progressed, we are very fortunate in many ways.

How is it progressing? You guys aren't getting married, and he's sleeping around with YOUR FRIENDS. Girl, wake up. He's getting it from all angles. This needs to be about YOU. Not Him, and not US. If you really want to second guess him all the time, by all means, stay. But, if that's what you wanted, would you really be here asking us about it?

Keep in mind, a woman's oppionion on this isn't any less credible than a man's. Why should it be? Women have cheated on men through all of time, the same as men have on women.

Now, why are you asking us, if you have it set in your mind that he's perfect, and that it's apparently ok for him to cheat, so long as he tells you?

If you want an open relationship, then open it, and go fuck aroudn yourself. If not, then tell him good bye. If he's done it that much, he's gonna do it again. Men... no, scratch that. PEOPLE don't change that easily, especially when it's a habit.

 

[RoughPlay]

Bollocks.

The VAST majority of those men who cheat would feel utterly devasted and betrayed if they found out that their wives were sneaking around on them, I am willing to wager.

I would not be utterly devastated and betrayed if I found out
my wife was sneaking around on me. My trust would be dented
but it would not be broken. I would want to understand why
without any anger, disapproval or criticism so that I got
the full truth. Then I would try to give my wife whatever it
was she was missing.

 

[sheath]

Re: All true points

To Sheath - you do have some good points but none that I haven't already gone through myself, you did however surprise me that you feel so strongly about men cheating, and yet you have admitted to having sex with a married man ?? But I am not judging the choice is yours.

Yes, I admit I have had an affair with a married man.

I do feel strongly about ANYONE cheating. Please note, I never at any time said that what I did was right. It wasn't.

Yes, the choice was mine. And you don't have to judge...I do more than enough of that myself in the middle of the night when I can't sleep. No one lives with my conscience but me.

I've been that fiancee of yours, sweetie. I know how it feels to step out on someone. And I know how the women he slept with feel, because I know how it feels to be the one taking him away. My post was simply to advise you that no matter what you go through, no matter how much counseling, no matter how much trust you think you can throw into him, there will always be something lacking. Even if you go to an open relationship now, there is the fact that you were NOT in one then, when he gave himself to six other women. That will always be with you.

But just as you don't judge me, neither will I judge you...I simply hope that you find the strength to discover all the happiness you are truly capable of having.

Good luck, dear.

S.

 

[Zarafa71]

I wish I had all the answers to everyones posts here, just as I wish everyone had the answers to mine. My original post was more so to hopefully get some replies from men that have done this to their partners or people who have gone through this and are still together. I didn't post here because of my doubt. When I first found out this had happened to me I wanted to get away as far as possible to be alone and ponder life as such, but unfortunatly I couldn't. I am professionally employed and could not take leave, and there are many other reasons why. I went through and I am still going through a grieving process (disbelief, anger, loneliness, sadness, pain etc)for what I have lost and this will go on forever. The thing is that once I could think clearly I made the decision to work on this relationship. Have you ever gone to buy something maybe a car or house that had everything you wanted except one thing, and the one down the road had it except you couldn't get something else, then you have to make the choice can I go without it. What he has done to me is a HUGE thing yes, but I am trying to weigh up the good and the bad here. If your partner was an alcoholic or gambler and put your marriage or relationship at risk would you leave him/her? or would you try your hardest to help? Yes if you helped them and they did it again you may not stay together but if you helped them and they pulled though things it would be worth every effort. My partner had sex with other women, I am far from stating that it is o.k , but is it any different? He had a problem he had no self control. I didn't know about the other girls for many years and our relationship has been great, if I never found out things would be better, but I now know. Some relationships break up because of affairs, but what kind of relationship was it in the first place? If there was no love, compassion, etc I could easily walk away. My love for my partner as his is for me is massive, I am willing to give him this chance, only he knows how much he has to loose.

 

[Lust Engine]

You make the anaology of buying a car or a house with a few things wrong with it and working your way through it. I completely understand the perseverance of improving upon something but I hope you understand why some of us here have doubts. You bought into a product here that not only failed on you once, but SEVERAL times and with something structurally (the trust issues) and not just cosmetically.

I can only speak for myself but I see what you telling us what you're NOT capable of doing. You say that you're in a corporate world & can't take the time away. You say you can't leave because of a myriad of reasons. You guys can't marry for the sake of scheduling & complacency.

You gave him the opportunity to leave? He's had every reason to stay! Why leave?? You've obviously been the one supporting him and he has no reason to leave. His tears are of a desperate man wanting to keep his good thing going. What about YOUR empowerment to leave? Has he ever been faced with it??

I understand completely the "wanting to work things out" routine but how many times can a man betray a trust before he's untrustworthy in your eyes?? How many????

 

[RoughPlay]

Re: All true points

Your replies are almost like they have come from my Fiance'himself - have you been in this situation before?

I have not been in this situation before. My replies partly come from
looking inside myself and partly from the things I have read and seen
over the years.

I probably would not have cheated on my wife anyway but now that I
understand how women feel about trust it is inconceivable. However asking
her permission at some point in the future is very conceivable.

 

[shescurious]

I wish I had all the answers to everyones posts here, just as I wish everyone had the answers to mine. My original post was more so to hopefully get some replies from men that have done this to their partners or people who have gone through this and are still together. I didn't post here because of my doubt. When I first found out this had happened to me I wanted to get away as far as possible to be alone and ponder life as such, but unfortunatly I couldn't. I am professionally employed and could not take leave, and there are many other reasons why. I went through and I am still going through a grieving process (disbelief, anger, loneliness, sadness, pain etc)for what I have lost and this will go on forever. The thing is that once I could think clearly I made the decision to work on this relationship. Have you ever gone to buy something maybe a car or house that had everything you wanted except one thing, and the one down the road had it except you couldn't get something else, then you have to make the choice can I go without it. What he has done to me is a HUGE thing yes, but I am trying to weigh up the good and the bad here. If your partner was an alcoholic or gambler and put your marriage or relationship at risk would you leave him/her? or would you try your hardest to help? Yes if you helped them and they did it again you may not stay together but if you helped them and they pulled though things it would be worth every effort. My partner had sex with other women, I am far from stating that it is o.k , but is it any different? He had a problem he had no self control. I didn't know about the other girls for many years and our relationship has been great, if I never found out things would be better, but I now know. Some relationships break up because of affairs, but what kind of relationship was it in the first place? If there was no love, compassion, etc I could easily walk away. My love for my partner as his is for me is massive, I am willing to give him this chance, only he knows how much he has to loose.

I guess at this point I am just confused as to what your are looking for here. Could it possibly be justification for the choice you have made because you can't seem to get that anywhere else, even from your own heart.

As was said earlier I hope in a few months you will be able to come back to this thread and read the things everyone wrote with a less biased mind.

I wish you all the happiness and strength to get through these times no matter your choice.

Shescurious

 

[RoughPlay]

I hope your counselling continues to go well Zarafa71.

From the things you have said I think there is every likelihood
you will live happily ever afterwards with your fiancé. Perhaps
you will even get married at some point.

 

[Zarafa71]

Thanks

To everyone that replied thanks for the input. For all the men out there, and women I hope you think things over ten times before doing something that may hurt the one you love. Never assume because it doesn't hurt you that it won't hurt them. Think first, is the 5 minutes of sex with a stranger worth the lifetime of pain you may cause?? For anyone that may doubt my situation, this is all true what has happened, and if you knew the both of us, you too would be shocked to believe it has happened.
I sometimes feel like my life has gone through 10 year cycles, and am hoping that the next 10 years will be the best there can be??
I know I will keep trying..
I am not discouraging open relationships, multiple partners etc, but it should be open. If these one off sexual relationships are more important than a life long monogomus one, than you need to re evaluate what is important to you, because before you know it you will be old, lonely and crusty..

Thanks again guys, and it may be better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all. But it's much better to have love and to be loved back.

I do hope that in many months time, I can inform you of how life is going down here in Oz.. Hopefully it will be one out of the box..

 

[ReadyOne]

Long essay about how some guys think

I'm male/38 married for the 3rd time + several LTRs.

First, I have no problem having sex with friends, even friends that I've just met. Sex can be just one of many ways to be together. Being together doesn't mean a commitment. Being together doesn't have to mean anything more passing time in an enjoyable way.

Sounds callous. But if you take away a big assumption that a large majority of females, as well as many males, seem to make then a lot of things might make more logical sense to you. Of course, so many people consider this sex thing an emotional argument, and you can't win an emotional argument with logic... But you ask for a male point of view, so here goes.

----

The assumption referred to above is that having sex with someone re-defines the relationship to give the newest sex partner uniquely special status that includes exclusivity.

When I was in grade school there was mention in social studies of "most favored nation" status as a trading partner. I learned the definition of "most" as an absolute measure; "most" was the one at the top or bottom of the list. So I was confused, thinking that only one nation could have "most favored nation" status. In reality, "most favored nation" is like being on the "A list". There are others on that same list, and all are treated alike.

Common belief seems to be that when people have sex, they move onto the "most favored" list, and that list never has more than one at a time.

But what if, like the "most favored nation" list, having sex with someone would put them on a list that could contain more than one person?

For many, many guys, the list can contain several people.

For many, many gals, the list can contain only one person.

If you can (logically) understand that concept then we're almost done.

Actually, there are several lists that contain sexual partners. And many guys do have a list that holds only one name. But you don't get on that list just by having sex (though 99.44% of the people on it are sexual partners). Call it the primary partner list or soul mate list or bonded mate list.

Confusing these two lists leads to misunderstand and misinterpretation of motives and behavior.

----

Are you a truly hetero person with a very good friend of the same sex? If so, then you've never been sexually attracted to them. (Grant me this please, even though absolutely totally hetero may be a minority.)

You have probably deeply bonded with that person, shared secrets, have shared moments where you let your guard down to that person. If they were magically packaged into the opposite sex and were available, you might very well add romance and sex to your relationship with them.

You could giggle with them during pillow talk as well as during lunch. Giggle may not be the right word, but I hope I'm getting the point across that the same "close, near, and dear"ness could exist both in bed and out of bed.

Do you have a couple of very good friends? Ones, that if repackaged, you might romance?

Assuming you got this far and have nominated a couple of people to your "very good friend magically repackaged list", the problems of romancing more than one of them will pop up quick.

You will almost immediately add the traditional one-at-a-time conditions to your thinking. Which one first? Will I have to drop the other(s) in order to be with the first? Could I ever be in the same place with all of them at the same time?

Famous and entertaining comedies have been written about this!

So why not say, "If I can have more than one good friend at a time, then I can have more than one sex partner at the same time."

Guys can say this with ease. Gals can't seem to make the jump.

Upon this foundation can rest tons of misunderstandings and misinterpretations and miscommunications.

----

The above is theory. Practicality is really complicated.

Friends can absorb a lot of time. You like being with them because you're friends, right? Multiple friends can absorb more time than you have.

A likes going to the races, doesn't like plays. B likes going to plays, doesn't like racing. How do you handle invites from both for a Saturday night? Lovers X, Y and Z (all with separate houses) all want you to move in them. Your paycheck can't support the doubled or tripled expenses because you are involved with A and B, or X, Y and Z.

The obvious solution is a circle of good friends that do a lot of things together.

This works great until you magically repackage them (adding sex) and have to confront the one man/one woman convention. Polyamory is very unconventional. Jealousy is a conventional response.

Yes, very good friends can be jealous of each other. But there are zillions of groups of very good friends where jealous is at most a minor, transient issue. Only when sex gets added to the mix do problems arise because traditional sex implies rejection of all but one. And why wouldn't the unlucky person(s) not be jealous? It's natural -- they are being short shrifted and devalued.

It's interesting that many sexual affairs can go on for a while without the first sexual partner noticing, if the second partner accepts sexual non-exclusivity. What brings an affair most to light frequently is diverted resources, actions arising from the jealousy of or impact to a second third or forth party, or the decision to choose exclusivity with one partner.

In other words, many men have little trouble have sex with multiple partners until the social ramifications kick in.

----

Given the implicit exclusivity of a sexual relationship for most women and many men, (or the explicit exclusivity of marriage), having another partner without the knowledge of the first is a trust and communication issue, and frequently an issue of devaluation and rejection.

Many guys aren't bothered by these, or even overtly aware of these issues, when they take a second sexual partner because they classify it as friendship or recreation where, by definition, the new partner doesn't displace the first partner.

Since the first partner hasn't been displaced, why should the first partner be jealous? Because the guy isn't operating with the idea that sex is the one criterion for making his list of "my bonded mate", then sex with the new partner won't move them onto that list. The primary/first partner couldn't ever get bumped from the list just by having sex with someone else. The first partner has no logical reason to be jealous.

And if it isn't a big deal, then trust and communication shouldn't be an issue either. He's trusted (implicitly authorized) to do a lot of things without prior discussion, and there are things that don't warrant any discussion. As long as he doesn't short shrift his primary, why bring it up?

Of course, the guy doesn't realize that taking another sex partner is considered, by definition, a major issue by most gals. Or he chooses to ignore that because it isn't a major issue to him.

On the other hand, things have worked with couples that communicated before, during, and after taking a new sex partner. Dealing with the trust and communication issue up front defused it, and also allow dealing with the issue of devaluation and rejection.

But very frequently, communication won't pave the way for a guy to have sex with another partner.

Many gals just can't get over the exclusivity hump. Practical issues like STD and BC can't always be dealt with to everyone's satisfaction. Some people (often with self image problems) can't get past the devaluation issue. Sometimes the issue can be integrity; breaking a promise (for exclusivity) loses respect. Sometimes it can be historical; the two people may have come together because of an affair and don't want to give history any chance to repeat. Sometimes foresight of potential for problems down the road, such as ending the affair, make it unacceptable.

----

I don't want to judge every person guilty of all that imputed above. All I'm saying is that there is a class of guys of significant size who operate as described. There is also a class of guys of significant size who naturally assume the gal's imputed point of view, and a very large class of guys who have chosen to behave consistent with the gal's view even if they weren't naturally inclined to do so.

Love means wanting and seeking the best for another, putting their welfare ahead of one's own.

 

[ReadyOne]

Personal Experiences with Second Lovers

Having posted the previous essay, I thought I'd add some details of my life experience.

I'm male/38 married for the 3rd time + several LTRs.
----
When I first married, early twenties, my wife was having an affair. She actually pushed me into meeting him a couple of weeks before the wedding. I decided to proceed not because she promised to stop seeing him, but because I believed her to be sincere in her commitment to me.

Turned out she saw him a few times after we were married, confessing afterwards. (A positive bonus was that he taught her a few things and she in turn taught them to me.) Still, we stayed together and were happily married for several years.

During that time, she came to me several times asking permission to see someone, and even several times asked to spend a weekend away a lover. I gave her my blessing each time, and she came back home a happy woman and ready to climb in bed with me.

I can't say she didn't do things I didn't know about, but I never went behind her back nor did I ever ask for permission. A couple of times we were in a situation that developed into a 3-way with no trouble before during or after.

We divorced because we realized that, while good friends, we really didn't have a lot in common outside the environment we were raised in, and that we were going to grow in very different directions at different rates. I helped her pack, we made love, and then she left, giving me a promise to go to bed with me at anytime in the future. We still have mutual contacts, and I keep telling myself that I should follow up on her life of the last 20+ years.
----
One LTR (Living Together Relationship) started out as a LDR (Long Distance Relationship) and ended up with her moving to my city. Occasionally she took lovers, not telling me about them unless asked point blank. This didn't bother me since she came home, picked me up at the airport when I was traveling 2 weeks a month, and supported me though some rough times.

Once we even looked up three of her old boy friends on a vacation we took out west. I gave them time together. With one they returned a couple of minutes after I left them alone in a far part of the house. A second one took a good half an hour. The third set up a situation where the 3 of us together with his wife were naked together, but his wife stopped it while they were groping each other. We stayed overnight there, so I don't know that they didn't make connections. Still, all were quality people and I wasn't bothered.
----
My second marriage included a time where I was charged with sexual harassment. My wife didn't ask if the charges were true or not but stood beside me all the way. Fortunately, I was eventually able to confront the "victim", who stated on record that there had been no harassment but that her (female) manager had made the complaint on her behalf. The incident was dismissed as office politics with a warning to everybody.

The point is that it didn't bother my wife (or so she said) that I might have been fucking an office mate, and that she supported me because we were married, not because she thought I was innocent. As I said, she never even asked.

She eventually became a very angry woman and divorced me in the aftermath of her father's death. The incident above was never raised, though she had a long list of complaints.
----
At one time, my kids were living in a college town where their mother was pursuing an advanced degree. I was working in a large city about an hour away, and living with a wonderful person near the big city. I kept the apartment in town (that I had moved into after the divorce) first because I wasn't sure about moving in with my new girl friend, and then so that I could have a place to stay overnight and visit my kids. I was there overnight maybe once a week and every other weekend.

With a couple of exceptions (her smoking was the biggest one), we were well matched. She gave hints of marriage and started a long deferred divorce.

For reasons not obvious at the time, I started talking with a girl who popped on instant messenger. She was looking for guys in the college town and I hadn't changed my profile to say I'd moved to the big city.

We were physically unmatched (she's 6" taller) but a good intellectual companion, so I classed her as a friend and we talked off and on. I hid this from my girl friend, because she expressed strong disapproval of me getting close to another female promising dire repercussions if I ever did. Since I wasn't out to lay the college town girl, I didn't feel there was any conflict of interest. But still, why open a potential can of worms?

Well, eventually met, and attended a few afternoon lectures together at the college. I'd leave work early, drive to the college, and spend the evening with my kids. I enjoyed her friendship, and I didn't go into my living arrangements other than to stay that I was staying most nights in a house near the big city with some friends.

She had been recently divorced and was dating around and trying new experiences. Eventually, we had a semi-date on a day I hadn't scheduled seeing the kids. Then later we had a real date on a weekend when I was supposed to be staying overnight with the kids. We told each other that this was a one time no strings attached fling and woke up together in her bed.

Aside from bedroom issues (like geometry) we appeared to be an outstanding match, even better than my current girlfriend. I did not plan to leave my girl friend, and believed that I would continue seeing the college town girl without getting sexually involved again.

As you guessed, we just happened to have a couple of unplanned fucks. She said that she was seeing other people, so it didn't bother me if it didn't bother her. (Turns out that she couldn't bring herself to have more than one lover at a time, and I had become that lover.)

For a brief while, I loved having two lovers. I cared for both deeply. I found I couldn't spend as much time with each one as I wanted. Still, I didn't consider the college girl for a pair-bond mate. But, if she had been shorter with wider sexual tastes, and if I were looking for a pair-bond, I would have made a strong effort toward the college town girl.

Then the shit hit the fan. A friend asked college towm girl if I was fucking anyone else, which was an excellent question. Her friend not only observed signs of a second lover (unavailability) but ask if we were having unsafe sex (we were) and made observations about STD.

She confronted me, and I told her everything about my living arrangements. We agreed to be tested, and talked over options.

The one requirement college town girl placed on me was that if I stayed involved with her that I be sexually exclusive with her, and in return she would be exclusive with me. Her advice was to go back and be exclusive with my girl friend.

After 5 days, I decided to do a rash and foolish thing and throw away one of the best loves of my life for a relatively unknown.

I stayed home from work on day, took a carload of my things back to college town, and packed the remainder. When girlfriend came home from work, I told her that I'd been cheating on her and was moving out before she threw me out.

This caused all of us great pain, especially her kids who were so happy that she was finally happy with a good man. The college town girl also shared my pain, and felt guilty for aiding in the breakup.

Two months latter I was living with the college town girl and a year and a half we were (and remain) married.

-----

Morals from my stories.

1. My lovers/mates have had sexual contacts beside myself and (save one case) things were well and good. I firmly believe this can be the rule, not the exception if parties agree.

2. I could and did support sex with more that one woman and felt that I could continue to do so on a long-term basis.

3. Eventually, the truth comes out. Keeping somebody in the dark sets up troubled times.

4. I loved each of them deeply. I was willing to commit to each of them, but that was impossible to do.

5. Other people were (or would have been) badly hurt no matter which one I chose, not to mention my aching at the loss of the one I didn't choose. There was no good choice.

6. Divine providence moves in mysterious ways to mate me to one (who I now know) is by far the best pair bond I've ever had.

7. While I still long to do things in the bedroom that I can not do with wife (even if she wanted to), I have promised not to get sexually involved with another without her express permission and I'm trying hard to accept that I will probably never get it.