Guilt.. ever feel it and how do you deal?

[Agincourt]

erased

 

[CutieMouse]

Oh gracious, yes... soul crushing guilt.

... Which contributed to marrying at 20 (we had sex once before the ceremony, and part of me *still* feels icky for being "slutty").

... Which contributed to my not telling *anyone* about my sexual interests until well into my 30s.

... which continues to contribute a bit to some struggles I have with certain interests.

... Which still contributes greatly to my desire/need to be a "good girl"- something which can (thankfully) be flipped to a positive trait, rather than locked into a negative one.

 

[leeroy jenkins]

The fact that your aware of the baggage from your strict religious background imparts is part of the struggle. I know that I did not have sex until I was 29 mostly because of my own faith. I personally think that GOD is basically down with bdsm. I know that is a shocker but if you pull out your bible and then look at the breakdown of what bdsm then it might become a bit clearer.

I will assume that everyone here knows that GOD is really down with the disciple aspect of the bd. There are literally a multitude of examples of where people have gone astray from his will so he punishes them either mild to wild depending on the circumstance.

As for the the ds well the whole bible is a Dominance and submissive picture show. He wants us human to submit our wills to him because lets face it he knows better cause he is timeless.

The sm part does have me wondering too, but I just remember the phrase purification through pain. There have been times in the past and I am sure in the present that we will endure pain as an agent to help cleanse us.

I know this doesn't help with the guilt but if you have a possible clearer picture of Him then the guilt will slowly go away. Just remember that some of the guilt comes from our human stupidity. You feel guilt because you think you are doing something wrong but maybe your not. If your faith is still there then you can alway ask for guidance from above. Not sure that helps but just my 3 cents.

 

[littleone77]

There is one fetish that I have strong guilt feelings about. Of all of them there is only that specific one. Its gotten better but there are certain times when the guilt is stronger than others. I have accepted that it is a part of who I am however it still bothers me, the enjoy I have in it.

The guilt does, usually, get better. I found that it wasn't as bad when I was with a partner who understood, accepted it and encouraged it. I also remember or at least try to, that it is not hurting anyone else. That it is nothing to be ashamed of and what others think does not really matter. What I feel and what I think are what counts.

 

[Tuomas]

Agincourt: That would depend on why you think God frowns on what you do/want to do. Nothing of BDSM requires pre-marital sex, for example. God most certainly doesn't mind you being cruel -the biblical injunction is to no kill, or envy thy neighbor, but there is no prohibition towards tying your SO up and having lots of kinky fun.

Upon closer inspection, a lot of the kinky devices used in BDSM come from... churches. Of course the Inquisition was most famous for their use of such devices as, whips, floggers, cuffs, chains and whatnot, but they were a regular fixture in monastaries. In fact, the Church actively encouraged people to "do penance" by flogging themselves as a demostration of their submission to the Lord.

Moreover, Corinthians II, clearly states that women should view men in the same maner men view God, ergo ... what's the problem with your guy spanking you, or you spanking your girl, when she is naughty?

Now, if you are interested in things that are specifically prohibited by the Bible, then you most certainly go to Hell. But, if you are particularly into the whole chains and whips thing... wouldn't that be like Heaven?

 

[myinnerslut]

i felt incredibly guilty about my desires at first... still do sometimes. mostly though ive come to terms that this is who i am, how i like things, and what im planning on doing for a long time.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

The fact that your aware of the baggage from your strict religious background imparts is part of the struggle. I know that I did not have sex until I was 29 mostly because of my own faith. I personally think that GOD is basically down with bdsm. I know that is a shocker but if you pull out your bible and then look at the breakdown of what bdsm then it might become a bit clearer.

I will assume that everyone here knows that GOD is really down with the disciple aspect of the bd. There are literally a multitude of examples of where people have gone astray from his will so he punishes them either mild to wild depending on the circumstance.

As for the the ds well the whole bible is a Dominance and submissive picture show. He wants us human to submit our wills to him because lets face it he knows better cause he is timeless.

The sm part does have me wondering too, but I just remember the phrase purification through pain. There have been times in the past and I am sure in the present that we will endure pain as an agent to help cleanse us.

I know this doesn't help with the guilt but if you have a possible clearer picture of Him then the guilt will slowly go away. Just remember that some of the guilt comes from our human stupidity. You feel guilt because you think you are doing something wrong but maybe your not. If your faith is still there then you can alway ask for guidance from above. Not sure that helps but just my 3 cents.

very well said, and i agree completely, i was going to post about the same thing..but i will not as you have said it very well and i would just be being redunant

 

[Yasashii_Kaze]

Having a strict religious background definitely raises guilt issues with me. Even though I know I am submissive through and through, that it is a vital part of me I've felt my entire life, I still carry the weight of committing a "taboo." Reading more about the lifestyle and having Snooze have helped tremendously. I've discovered that the more I learn, the better I feel about my chosen path.

 

[FurryFury]

The God I was raised to believe in doesn't think we should have sex except to make babies in a blessed union.

Guilt is a big thing with me.

I can deal with it though.

Oh and the God I was raised with let my Dad die. So fuck that shit.

Fury

 

[A Desert Rose]

I feel guilty about nothing that is sexually related.

The things I feel guilty about have nothing at all to do with sex. Maybe I wasn't as a good a wife or mother or daughter as I could've been... Maybe I've not been as good a friend... Maybe I didn't do as good a job at work last week as I could've... stuff like that.

I'm pretty sure that the God I believe in doesn't give a whit about my sex life.

 

[FWMike]

Oh and the God I was raised with let my Dad die. So fuck that shit.

Fury

Just remember, that "the God" others told you about may (and probably doesn't) have anything to do with the God. God is about love and reconciliation. Not judgment and exclusion. We all die, it is a part of life. Sorry to be so heavy, brief, and unclear with my first post, but...eh.

 

[JMohegan]

I personally think that GOD is basically down with bdsm. I know that is a shocker but if you pull out your bible and then look at the breakdown of what bdsm then it might become a bit clearer.

I will assume that everyone here knows that GOD is really down with the disciple aspect of the bd. There are literally a multitude of examples of where people have gone astray from his will so he punishes them either mild to wild depending on the circumstance.

As for the the ds well the whole bible is a Dominance and submissive picture show. He wants us human to submit our wills to him because lets face it he knows better cause he is timeless.

I am very, very uncomfortable with any analogies between Dominants and God. Not for religious reasons, but simply because I know how hard it is to keep things in perspective without this extra push toward hubris.

There is wisdom in Proverbs 16:18: "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."



As for the idea that the God of the Bible is "basically down with bdsm".... hmm. I have a very different interpretation of that text. Mine is much closer to the one in Elton John's old song, Tower of Babel.


It’s party time for the guys in the tower of Babel.
Sodom meet Gomorrah,
Cain meet Abel.
Have a ball ya’ll
See the letches crawl
With the call girls under the table.
Watch ‘em dig their graves,
‘Cause Jesus don’t save the guys
In the tower of Babel.

 

[Agincourt]

Wow! there are so many differant view points. Its nice to know i'm not alone in this. The many methods in dealing with it are very interesting as well. I hope i didnt unearth anything that bothers people.

 

[JMohegan]

Agincourt, you may be interested in reading this thread on Dom Guilt. I especially recommend Quint's post 16.

 

[neonflux]

Hi Agincourt,

While my parents gave my sister and me a remarkable gift in not imparting any shame to us regarding sexual desire, I did spend time in a Pentacostal church as a teen (when I was trying to get my father, who was very ill, healed by sitting in proxy). Therefore, I understand in some small measure your guilt. While the dominant Christian view today sees all pleasure and in particularly sexuality outside of procreation as evil, this isn't the only Christian viewpoint, nor is it the only religious one.

To me, sexuality is sacred and always carries with it the potential to touch the divine in ourselves, in others, and to the larger Universe. Every major religious tradition has some branch of mysticism that celebrates this potential in sex, from the Gnostic and midieval Christian traditions - read St Theresa or St. John of the Cross or even St. Francis (JM, this is where I think that submission and God are connected), to Cabal (I have a childhood Jewish friend who has studied it seriously for over 20 years and tells me that sexuality is at the very core of the study and practice) to Tantric Buddhism to certain schools of Yoga in Hinduism. And of course, the celebration of sexuality is at the core of many pagan traditions, including Dionysian worship and Celtic fertility rituals.

In as much as pain can bring us to alternate states of consciousness, and D/s S/m B/d all have the potential to create intensified states of intimacy, for me at least (I realise that this is not at the heart of everyone's kink), my kink rests in my spiritual core and the most memorable scenes are those that bring me closer to the divine. Again, all religions have traditions that view the experience of pain as a path to the divine (and being switch, when I Top and cause pain, under the best circumstances, I find myself feeling great tenderness, love, connection). Again, go back to the Christian mystics and Muslim Shiites who flog(ged) themselves, Yogi ascetics who stick themselves with needles, the tradition of the Sundance among the Lakota, Zen Bhuddists who sit Zazen.

The Frugal Domme has a whole list of articles and links related to religion and BDSM on her web site (many other BDSM sites do, also):

http://www.frugaldomme.com/ceremonies/religion.htm

With love and best wishes for your journey,

Neon

 

[JMohegan]

Every major religious tradition has some branch of mysticism that celebrates this potential in sex, from the Gnostic and midieval Christian traditions - read St Theresa or St. John of the Cross or even St. Francis (JM, this is where I think that submission and God are connected)

Neon, are you talking about submission to God or submission of one human being to another?

 

[neonflux]

Neon, are you talking about submission to God or submission of one human being to another?

JM,

To me, the two are similar. Because in rare instances, I am able to experience my connection to the divine through my connection to my lover, I would say that they are different paths to the same place... (BTW, while I was raised in the Episcopal Church, I am now a Unitarian Universalist and so more aptly can be decribed as believing in "Divine Principle." Can't you tell by my post, LOL?)

When I was going through the worst part of my experience with sub drop, at my sister's behest, I reread St. John and was amazed at how my feelings so closely mirrored what he described as "the dark night of the soul." During the scene itself, I also experienced something akin to that state of "submission" - a mystical state, not only perhaps of submission, but of surrender - this is what Cleo Dubois (I am redoing her website right now) would call it, and I am beginning to prefer her term.

As to topping, I would never suggest that a Dom/me functions as God. Rather, during the two scenes during which I've topped so far and felt that closeness to the Divine, I had a deep sense of being responsible for "holding sacred space," not a Goddess, but a Priestess, perhaps? A conduit in a mutual dance with my bottom?

Does this make sense?

Neon

P.S., I have been meaning for the past week or so to start a thread on spirituality and BDSM. Perhaps, if there isn't one already (haven't found one under the search terms I've used), this would be the time?

 

[A Desert Rose]

We've had this discussion before. I can't see any comparison in submitting to a human and to God. I was born, raised and still am very much a Catholic but somewhere someone failed me because I can't feel guilty or ashamed for my sexual activities. And I how I submit to a Dom/me is nothing like my relationship with God.

I'm not a literalist when it comes to the Bible. My God cares about how I treat others and whether I do the right (or ethical) thing or not.

I guess I'm not much of a deep thinker. If I need that, I'll read Jack Handy.

 

[neonflux]

I guess I'm not much of a deep thinker. If I need that, I'll read Jack Handy.

Jack Handy, now that's pretty darn funny (really did have me lol)... With a !

 

[A Desert Rose]

Jack Handy, now that's pretty darn funny (really did have me lol)... With a !

Pardon me... I'm feeling quite randy these last few days and with good reason. LOL

 

[neonflux]

Pardon me... I'm feeling quite randy these last few days and with good reason. LOL

Ahhhhhhh.... well, with beau in town it can only be good

 

[JMohegan]

As to topping, I would never suggest that a Dom/me functions as God. Rather, during the two scenes during which I've topped so far and felt that closeness to the Divine, I had a deep sense of being responsible for "holding sacred space," not a Goddess, but a Priestess, perhaps? A conduit in a mutual dance with my bottom?

Does this make sense?

To tell you the truth, no. It doesn't make sense to me, but I'm sure that the primary obstacle here is the limit to my cognitive abilities when it comes to abstract thinking.

All I can tell you is that I have seen guys - *many* guys - become so corrupted by the power granted them through D/s that they begin to behave in irresponsible or even dangerous ways.

If you have never been in a sustained relationship with a partner who cedes control to you both in and out of the bedroom, this may be difficult to understand. But there's something about this power that can warp your perspective if you don't take care.

I am talking about concrete things a Dom/me can do, and get his/her partner to do, the cumulative effect of which can make you feel powerful in a quasi-superhuman way.

This is a dangerous self-image for a human being to have. This is Icarus, flying too close to the sun. I have seen this happen, over and over again, and as a consequence my friends and I have made a conscious effort to watch each other's backs and make sure it doesn't happen to us.

And I how I submit to a Dom/me is nothing like my relationship with God.

This is the only view I could ever accept in a partner.

Because I have also seen submissives with warped judgment. Women whose view of their partners has become so sanctified that they lose the ability to provide balance in the relationship and in fact start to lose themselves.

 

[incubus'_sub]

I'm totally with ADR & JM on this one. Mixing the feelings of BDSM with something religious or spiritual is very, very dangerous in my view.

Nope, no sexual guilts for me. I am as I am & have long since accepted it. I have felt distress, in the past, due to hurts caused to others by their own refusal to accept me for who & what I am, but guilts as such, no.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I'm totally with ADR & JM on this one. Mixing the feelings of BDSM with something religious or spiritual is very, very dangerous in my view.

Nope, no sexual guilts for me. I am as I am & have long since accepted it. I have felt distress, in the past, due to hurts caused to others by their own refusal to accept me for who & what I am, but guilts as such, no.

AMEN Sister!!! ;-)

I can think deep on mortality... on being a good mother... on being a good friend... on being a good daughter and nurse. My sex life does not require deep thinking.

Now, romance and love... there's another whole subject entirely. But you know, even then, I try not to think too hard on it. Too much thinking in regard to love and stuff can truly fuck up a good thing. ;-)

 

[neonflux]

To tell you the truth, no. It doesn't make sense to me, but I'm sure that the primary obstacle here is the limit to my cognitive abilities when it comes to abstract thinking.

All I can tell you is that I have seen guys - *many* guys - become so corrupted by the power granted them through D/s that they begin to behave in irresponsible or even dangerous ways.

If you have never been in a sustained relationship with a partner who cedes control to you both in and out of the bedroom, this may be difficult to understand. But there's something about this power that can warp your perspective if you don't take care.

I am talking about concrete things a Dom/me can do, and get his/her partner to do, the cumulative effect of which can make you feel powerful in a quasi-superhuman way.

This is a dangerous self-image for a human being to have. This is Icarus, flying too close to the sun. I have seen this happen, over and over again, and as a consequence my friends and I have made a conscious effort to watch each other's backs and make sure it doesn't happen to us.

This is the only view I could ever accept in a partner.

Because I have also seen submissives with warped judgment. Women whose view of their partners has become so sanctified that they lose the ability to provide balance in the relationship and in fact start to lose themselves.

Hi JM,

I know of some of the types of Dommes you speak of, and I understand the danger. I ran into someone like that when I started to date again - very control oriented and manipulative. Now in retrospect, understanding more about the formal aspects of BDSM, I realize that he was trying to "train" me without it being mutually agreed upon. Now THAT is hubris writ large. We only saw each other for 2 or so months and I called it off (got some great poetry out of it, though). Regarding the sub experience, again, I can see where this would be a problem. Both seem to me to be about misplaced ego, about boosting that sense of individual self - even the sub because that type of worship is, I think at bottom, a search for self-worth through another.

But I don't connect either of these responses or BDSM experiences as resembling anything sacred. Sacred experience to me involves the absense or loss of ego. The temporary dissolution, in a certain sense, of self.

What I am speaking of involves a great deal of humility and awe. It is not about asserting oneself, but in both cases about surrendering to something larger, to connecting to something larger - I would never suggest that it is ME doing either. I know it may sound silly, but there is something about sex - and bdsm - that can help one connect to something much bigger than oneself - to reach a state that I can only call mystical because it is so outside of the realm of ordinary experience.

I occassionally feel the same sort of thing when I am training. The trainings that I do, because they involve sexuality, can bring out emotions in people, even though I always focus them on professional application and DON'T do any of those traditionally touchy-feely things that so many trainers do. There are times, not often, that I can only describe as getting into a "Zen" state, where I know exactly how to respond, how to weave others' responses together - to weave a tapestry. But I don't see it as my tapestry at that point. In fact, I feel - perhaps not small, but diffuse. I just "am" at those moments.

I also had similar moments when I was acting onstage - where I didn't need to think about what my next line was - when for a moment, or a scene, or a performance, I was inhabited by my character and the whole experience became much larger than myself. I've heard athletes and musicians describe similar experiences.

Have you ever read the book, Consensual Sadomasochism by Sybil Holiday? Or the chapter on spirituality in The New Topping Book? When I spoke of some of my sexual experiences (both vanilla and BDSM) as having a sacred quality to them, I was talking about similar states - they are not ego-driven, but something else entirely. And they grow out of being deeply connected to my partner in some extraordinary ways at those moments.

My Grandmother was deeply religious - though Czech, raised in the Russian Orthodox church. She taught me that everything one does should be a prayer - hers was actually a very "Zen" way of walking in the world. When I think of any of these things, I think of prayer, of service, and I feel grateful. I cannot describe it better than that, but again, it doesn't involve ego, but connection, and even when Topping, a certain sense of surrender...

OK, I know, now I really am beginning to sound like "Jack Handy," LOL.

Neon