Guilt and BDSM

[Killishandra]

I don't think I've ever been called a rapist (I certainly hope not ) but I've been called an abusive man by a woman whose slave contract I STILL have. Providing for many of the "abuses" she now tells her friends and family I subjected her to.

Subs like that give the rest of us a bad rep.

 

[DVS]

Excellent post, TB. Excellent advice as well!

I agree that it was an excellent post and excellent advice. I'm playing the devil's advocate here a little to make a point.

I say it's more likely the woman will win out in a case like this, than the man will, if she has obvious marks and bruises to show for it. A digital camera, a good sob story, and a money hungry lawyer will usually be enough.

But, I know it's not always going to go that way. A lot depends on how long you've been dating, your past relationships with others. etc. Still, that's not something we want to go through, and the man will most likely be the one to spend some time in jail, while the preliminary events are sorted out.

I understand the frat boy situation, too, but I'm talking the average Joe, who's older and out of school. I also know it's possible for the man to lie and use the fact that she wants to play rape against her and take it further than she wants...maybe real rape or even death.

The point I'm making is always know your partner. For whatever reason you are meeting someone in the BDSM play field, don't rush things. Know who this person is, and their background, if you can. Just because you're the Dom, don't think you have the upper hand.

Let's hope those who enjoy this sort of play are not jumping the gun and rushing into situations they might regret. Nobody wants to be a statistic, and if bad things happen it only looks worse for the rest of us, when we are looking for a play partner.

Define what you want, make sure your partner knows this, too. Even write it out, if you have to and both sign it. Shit, even get a friend to witness it for you. There are craxy people out there, on both sides. Check out the general board, for instance!

 

[Marquis]

Subs like that give the rest of us a bad rep.

I'll chalk it up to a learning experience.

When you've done things with a person that 90% of society thinks are abnormal, you better be nice come breakup time. I'll hold onto the contract just in case.

 

[wolf2002]

I doubt if a slave contract is considered legally binding in a court of law... it may even be held against you, as an example of how you mentally abused your partner...

But actually I regret that this discussion is becoming a legal one... more interesting imho is where we - bdsm-minded people - draw the moral line between consent and non-consent...

Non-consent and mock rape are amongst my favourite pasttimes so I play with this concept a lot... in my experience it all depends on knowing your partner... when does struggle become fighting, when is 'no' really 'no'...

A good illustration of the dillema is Killishandra's paradoxical quote:

Sometimes I desire to have non-consentual acts done to me.

It seems contradictional but it isn;t... the consent is there, the point is that your partner (or the man behind the curtain, if you like) has to find out what's on your mind... if he doesn;t care shit about your desires and where to draw the line, it begins to look an aweful lot like rape to me... a good Dom should be able to detect your urge, but it's still his responsibility not to cross the line... it's the sub's duty to draw this line and make clear that it ends there... at a last resort, safewords may come in handy...

Wolf

 

[Miss Melody]

Then I got curious. I started doing searches on goolge and yahoo and soaking up anything I could. It's been over a year and a half of reading, and a few months on the boards here, and I am just not ready to take my first tentative steps outside the computer and am going to much first munch tomorrow night.

I'm curious to hear you thoughts about your first munch...I was scared to death when I went to mine, shakey, nervous, so many preconceived notions. Once I figured out that no one was going to be sacrificing humans in the middle of the floor, I was able to sit back and watch a fantastic bondage demo, but I chain smoked my way through the night.

I felt lonely all my life, not understanding why vanilla sexual intimacy was never enough for me. It always felt dispassionate, lacking spice. I tried to get people to tie me up but they all thought it was freaky. I tried to tie them up but they never wanted to do more. I thought I was a crazy. I heard of BDSM but didn't know that was ME. Once I talked to people about it, I realized that's what was missing in my life.

 

[Killishandra]

Well, everyone has been chiming in some good posts here, huh? Lots of food for thought. I probably only have one more thing to contribute.

My Dom has already told me that there will come a time(s) in the future (when we are more secure with each other) when he will purposefully push me to the point of intense dislike for him (through words or actions in our relationship) and then rape me "for real." I've accepted that this is going to happen, and objectively a part of me looks forward to it, as a sign of his Dominance over me (the fact that I am His to use sexually) even though I know that at the time I will be frustrated and hate it.

The interesting thing is, it will be hard to tell (when it happens) if what he's done to make me so mad is indeed for the purpose of creating a rape opportunity or if I really have good reason to be mad at him. Due to our poly situation there is a more-than-normal opportunity for misgivings and hurt feelings if we're not careful. He is the type to capitalize on a situation, so I think even if my anger (and my attempt to deny him any sexual advances) were not planned, he may take that opportunity to take my body against my will and then work out the issue immediately afterwards... In fact, something like that should, in theory at least, end up as a bonding experience that only adds to the foundation of the D/s our relationship is built on. In order for this relationship to work the way we all want it to, His needs must come first. Ours (as subs) can follow a close second (certainly before the concerns of outsiders) but always, His wants must be satisfied. I really think this is the only type of relationship that can make me happy in the long run, because if I'm not in a relationship where my partner's dominance is well established (as in D/s) I fear I will drive us both nuts trying to continually challenge it. I was always the leader, never the follower, in my vanilla relationships and knowing I could top (in the non-physical sense) my man made me bored and dissatisfied. I'm thankful to have come across someone with complementary desires, who understands pretty well how my mind ticks. Moreso, I'm thankful to finally have a Sir I can be proud and content to serve.

All the posts that have been contributed to this thread have great points that anyone interested in this topic should take into account... Hmm I wonder if it is really rape or not? (The situation that I am talking about.) The me that I am in this moment accepts that I will be raped (forced into sex against my will, when I honestly don't want it at the moment) but the myself I am in the future will be fighting it. (When I'm pissed all the claws come out... I would not be surprised if my Dom has some interesting nail and teeth marks after this situation, unless he manages to trick me into bondage first!)

Trust will, I'm sure, be established first in our relationship (more so than current, which is already a surprising amount for such a short time) but it will, in a way, be broken down and built up again stronger during this "exercise" (again begs the question, should I call it "rape"?)

It's true that most Doms should, in most scenes, pay utmost attention to that line we've all been talking about... But I crave a relationship (and so does He) where in time all lines between us are erased entirely and matter no more.

 

[Killishandra]

whoa

I just looked over my last post and realized... Holy Moly, I have some kind of parentheses addiction!!

Sorry, you guys.

Is there a twelve-step program for this? Maybe I should head over to the Language Nazi board and ask them.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I am glad I discovered the world of consensual sexual violence because I am both a "rapist at heart" and a person who could never actually rape someone and the tension between those poles was fucking me up.

When I say "a rapist at heart" I mean that I have and always have had strong and clear fantasies about real rape and they are so "enjoyable" that they light up my neural switchboard.

It is in the area of rape more than anything else that I clearly experience the divide between my rational, moral, civilized, conscientious self and my irrational, prehuman, animal side.

 

[Marquis]

First and foremost I want to say that was an excellent post and I really appreciate the contributions you've made to this board since... ummm.... finding it.


I would have to say that the rape you talk about with your Dom (who seems to be a very lucky man if I might add) is pretty much like genuine rape. Many real rapes are later brushed off as being "consentual enough" by the raped, if they don't want to deal with the idea that they were raped or if they feel insecure about the effort they made to show they were not consenting.

However none of that mitigates the reality of the fact that they were indeed, in that moment, raped. If you think you can develop a relationship with a person where he could rape you and you would later accept that that was his right and submit to it, well I'd have to say that's a pretty special thing indeed.

 

[Marquis]

I am glad I discovered the world of consensual sexual violence because I am both a "rapist at heart" and a person who could never actually rape someone and the tension between those poles was fucking me up.

When I say "a rapist at heart" I mean that I have and always have had strong and clear fantasies about real rape and they are so "enjoyable" that they light up my neural switchboard.

It is in the area of rape more than anything else that I clearly experience the divide between my rational, moral, civilized, conscientious self and my irrational, prehuman, animal side.

Have you been reading my diary?

 

[Killishandra]

First and foremost I want to say that was an excellent post and I really appreciate the contributions you've made to this board since... ummm.... finding it.

Thank you...

If you think you can develop a relationship with a person where he could rape you and you would later accept that that was his right and submit to it, well I'd have to say that's a pretty special thing indeed.

Indeed!
I don't walk blindly into the situation... It's a level of control I never would have considered in past relationships, but this one is very special. I simply trust in Him that what is good for the goose is good for the gander... (Bad use of that saying, but it's the most appropriate one I can think of at the moment. He is the "goose", the three of us are the "gander" I guess, LOL.)

What is good for me in that moment is less important than what is beneficial to our relationship long-term. I'm sure the "irrational, prehuman, and animal side" of Him will just enjoy fucking me like that, but the reason it is His right to do so is in part because the thinking side of Him has an eye on all of the implications.

And really, there is nothing sexier than animal lust with a cruel and calculated bent to it. Makes me shiver to submit myself to a person like that...

 

[HawkEye38]

Maybe that's where the line is. Maybe it's more an issue of trust than consent. Both parties trusting each other enough to do the sorts of things we do. Trust given by the subs to the doms to respect thier limits, and know when to stop. And likewise, trust from the dom to the sub that he/she won't turn on them after the scene's over.

With any kind of rape scene I would think we all would have to be insane to not talk it over thouroughly with the sub so we know thier limits inside and out, and so we know exactley when to stop....

Wait... Wait... Revelation coming over me... EUREKA!!

I've got it!

The thing that seperates "Us" from the rapists and serial killers out there is that the dom really isn't really in charge with our case. Let me explain.

With a rapist, it's a sense of power, hate and anger, but with most of us it's more of a loving thing. But the big thing is THE SUB IS IN CONTROL AT ALL TIMES. Anytime the sub wants, anytime at all, all they have to do is say the safeword... it's over, no questions asked, no begging or pleading, no trying to get it to go further. That's what seperates us from "them". I dunno about you, but I feel a whole lot better now!

 

[Killishandra]

With a rapist, it's a sense of power, hate and anger, but with most of us it's more of a loving thing. But the big thing is THE SUB IS IN CONTROL AT ALL TIMES. Anytime the sub wants, anytime at all, all they have to do is say the safeword... it's over, no questions asked, no begging or pleading, no trying to get it to go further. That's what seperates us from "them". I dunno about you, but I feel a whole lot better now!

In the instance taking place in my future (theoretically, at least) I seriously doubt He is going to respond to my safeword. Regardless, as Marquis pointed out in his reply to my post, I feel it is (or will be by then) His right to do as he wants, even though at that point in time it will be rape. *shrug*

All of that aside, your insight is surely correct 99.9% of the time. Safewords are a wonderful thing, and they cannot be dismissed lightly. I'm glad you've found your peace, young padawin.

 

[TaintedB]

With a rapist, it's a sense of power, hate and anger, but with most of us it's more of a loving thing. But the big thing is THE SUB IS IN CONTROL AT ALL TIMES. Anytime the sub wants, anytime at all, all they have to do is say the safeword... it's over, no questions asked, no begging or pleading, no trying to get it to go further. That's what seperates us from "them". I dunno about you, but I feel a whole lot better now!

I don't know guy. I want to be raped someday but I would NEVER scene with someone who made me use a safeword (never have, never will, I just don't go there--ugh!--so I guess you could say a "safeword" is a hard limit of mine, lol) and I would walk out of the situation in disgust if I felt I was the one ultimately in charge. The point of simulated rape, at least for me, is that it actually feel like a real rape with real terror, real pain, real anger, real frustration, real inability to stop the violation of one's body no matter how hard you try, and there's no way that is going to happen if the man somehow imagines (or worse, wants to imagine) that I'm running things. For me, the situation loses all erotic potential when that happens, and becomes just another boring physically encounter.

This is just not my scene. I guess I am over in the "them" category.

 

[babiesmiles]

What we're talking about is the line and how to define it. What is rape and what is play rape? Even if there is a line and you have talked it out with your partner, you could have problems, if she wants to cause them.

Sure, a planned play rape is consentual non consent, but as you have said, the submissive party can always go to the police and say it was NOT a planned rape and you end up in jail. No, they won't even listen to your side of the story until the court date, as it's a "no means no" situation and a domestic case where you are assumed to have gone past that point, as she can very well say you did. Then, your ass is grass.

What I meant by saying "can you say date rape?" was just that...
maybe she likes it rough. Maybe she likes it to be similar to the real thing. There is nobody on your side, if she decides to change her mind in the middle of your play acting.

There is no proof you both decided to do this, before hand, and her side will win, unless you have a very good (expensive) lawyer and can prove she is into play rape, rape fantasies, and BDSM...all which are most likely not something she has "outed" to the general public.

Even if it comes out you decided everything before hand, where's your proof you both decided on "Y" if she said she wanted only "X"? Think a jury will believe you, over her?

What I'm saying is, if you are into this sort of play, be sure you know your partner. Playing rape with someone you don't know, they could "go bitchy" and get you into the clink!

Well, I guess I'm a little bitchy tonight, I guess, huh? LOL. And, I'm not even ito play rape scenes. I am into stayng out of jail, though.

We were almost talking of the same thing , but from two different corners .
I talked about consent related to rape play , you about the possible bad consequences of the play that the other player who goes mad can cause. And on that I fully agree with you . Its a dangerous game one can make only if there is a big amount of knowledge and trust with the other person. Otherwise is better it stay just a fantasy.
But rape play is not one of my fantasies at all, play rough yes but not till plan a rape scene , so I'm not really the best qualified person to talk about it , cause I actually dont know much about the subject .

 

[DVS]

I don't know guy. I want to be raped someday but I would NEVER scene with someone who made me use a safeword (never have, never will, I just don't go there--ugh!--so I guess you could say a "safeword" is a hard limit of mine, lol) and I would walk out of the situation in disgust if I felt I was the one ultimately in charge. The point of simulated rape, at least for me, is that it actually feel like a real rape with real terror, real pain, real anger, real frustration, real inability to stop the violation of one's body no matter how hard you try, and there's no way that is going to happen if the man somehow imagines (or worse, wants to imagine) that I'm running things. For me, the situation loses all erotic potential when that happens, and becomes just another boring physically encounter.

This is just not my scene. I guess I am over in the "them" category.

Now, see? That's where we differ. I thought we had a good talk going here, before you said the sub WASN'T in charge and you DON'T like safe words and, well...

I think it's important to be part of the civilized section and stick with the SS&C group. The sub is ultimately in charge, and so if she wants to quit, all she has to do is say the word. That's my way of knowing i've gone to far, or maybe she just has to go to the bathroom, or something.

Now, I know I will never go to far, it's just not me. But, when I want to get rough, or when the sub wants to get rough, I want to know if something is going wrong. I'm into bondage and gags and blindfolds all of which add up to total control. I don't want some stupid thing to burst my bubble.

Yeah, I know I said the sub is ultimately in charge. That's true. But, she will trust me enough to let me do whatever I want, because she knows I won't go over that edge. We know each other well enough that there is no need for a safe word because I went too far, or because she got scared that I might. I do still want that word so I don't have to be watching everything in the corner of my eye, in case of something of the unknown happens.

Now, there is a bit of mental twisting going on. Yes, the sub is in charge, but that's because she's the one who needs to be. But, with that being said, she knows and I know the safe word is only for the extreme case, the unusual need, the leg cramp, rope cutting off circulation type of thing.

It's difficult to explain, but because she wants to feel a certain way, she won't use the word for the wrong reason. Stopping a scene she wants in the first place is like rebooting a computer without saving the vital data. You lose the energy, the mood, the erection...it all goes down the drain.

With some BDSM situations, you just can't involve people you don't know well. First, the feeling would never be there, and second, you'd constantly be wondering if you're going too far. With someone you've played before and taken to a certain level before, you know the limits without saying.

That's when there's never a need for a safe word. You know how far to go because you've been there before. You know what is expected. You know how much force she wants you to use, how much pain she can handle. You know those little wiggles and body jerks are good wiggles and body jerks, without needing to ask.

Yes, the sub is ultimately in charge. But, with a trusted partner, that issue never comes up and the Dom does what he wants, the scene goes on as planned and everything is as close to real as possible. Unless she needs to go to the bathroom, that is.

 

[TaintedB]

We do differ on this. That's Ok. In my experience, which has been fairly extensive, the sub was in no way shape or form the one in charge. I think that spoiled me rotton, because now I won't settle for anything less.

 

[DVS]

We were almost talking of the same thing , but from two different corners .
I talked about consent related to rape play , you about the possible bad consequences of the play that the other player who goes mad can cause. And on that I fully agree with you . Its a dangerous game one can make only if there is a big amount of knowledge and trust with the other person. Otherwise is better it stay just a fantasy.
But rape play is not one of my fantasies at all, play rough yes but not till plan a rape scene , so I'm not really the best qualified person to talk about it , cause I actually dont know much about the subject .

I'm not that much into the rape scene, either, but I do like to be rough and I like a sub who fights me, like she doesn't want to be tied up, or her ass lubed, etc. I like taming her.

And, I think we are saying the same thing, too, but from different angles, as you said. And, I agree it's something two trusting people can actually know, without there ever being a problem. Like I said in the last post, to TaintedB, you just don't do this sort of thing with just anybody. Know your partner trust your partner and everything else falls into place.

That female who will let the male take a fall, to save her own hide? She never wanted it in the first place. She is always going to stop before it get's too hot. The deep water for her is when the water splashes up in her face, but she's still standing on the bottom of the pool. She panics and wants to stop when she has to tread some water for a while. That type of person can cause a guy a night in jail. Sure, she says she's sorry...but you still spent the night with Bubba!

 

[DVS]

We do differ on this. That's Ok. In my experience, which has been fairly extensive, the sub was in no way shape or form the one in charge. I think that spoiled me rotton, because now I won't settle for anything less.

Well, we both see "eye to eye" on the subject of anal sex.

 

[SueJ]

I'm not that much into the rape scene, either, but I do like to be rough and I like a sub who fights me, like she doesn't want to be tied up, or her ass lubed, etc. I like taming her.

Gee, is it getting HOT in here!!! <big smile>

I totally agree with you on the 'safe word' issue. The only person I ever scene with is the one I've been with forever, but when I'm bound, even he doesn't know if a muscle cramp sets in and the circulation in my arm is cut off. In all the years together, it's probably less than five times that I've had to tell him to stop, but when I needed to, I sure was glad I was able to.

 

[DaddyJustin]

Finding out

Just a thought...

When all of you were young and just starting to discover your BDSM
tendencies what did you feel?

Worry?
Sadness?
Joy?
Guilt?

If the feelings were negative... what did you do to deal with it?

How did you overcome it? If you have overcome it that is.

Questions, Concerns, Complaints, Comments, and Colloquialisms (If I spelled that right it's a miracle) are welcome and encouraged.

Well I am just finding out about this and my feelings towards it. I remember having BDSM tendencies at a young age, but I didnt think it was a sexual thing, I just I dono thought it was something I liked. As I got older I suppressed the feelings because I thought they where wrong. Now I am starting to talk to people about BDSM tendencies but it is hard for me because I still feel a lot of shame because of the tendencies. Mostly I feel lonely.

DaddyJustin

 

[HawkEye38]

::Crumples up piece of paper most recent theory was on and tosses it over to a wastebasket towering with wads of paper::

::sigh:: back to the drawing board

 

[HawkEye38]

I think I'm just having one of those days...

Anyway, it works for me... I'm happy... but obviousley you guys aren't rapists... (I hope) so, where do we draw the line with you? Hoy vay, this thread is starting to give me a headach