Gruden to TB, the Raiders/Bucs trade

[modest mouse]

Simple question:

Who made out the best here?

Raiders get:
1st and 2nd round draft pics this year
1st round in 2003
2nd round in 2004
$8 million over 3 years

Buccaneers get:
Jon Gruden
(...and sign him to a 5 year/$17.5 million contract)

***

I hate the Raiders and don't love the Buccaneers but this certainly seems like a major deal for the Raiders. Gruden is a great coach with years of quality ahead of him but he doesn't make or break the Raiders and in fact Daviz wanted to get rid of him ASAP. Gruden wasn't welcome back next year, when his contract expired.

In return they get mega draftpicks spread over 3 years and some cash just for fun. Once they find a coach the raiders looked to have strengthened their team as they can replace veterans the next few years and have picks to combat the salary cap.

As for the Buccaneers, its no secret the people who run the team are first degree idiots. They've bothced this coach search and must be one of the reasons they overpaid for Gruden. There was talk of Warren Sapp being included in the deal when it surfaced a few weeks ago but that was a sticky situation.

The Bucs are a team with shit for chemistry and Keyshawn's contract hovering like a piano waiting to fall. $13 million a year, what the fuck were they thinking?

They have a veteran team with some younger players but overall with salary cap concerns so its possible that they would have had trouble paying first round draft picks but it seems they killed the flexibility they may have had.

Gruden is a great coach, one of the best in the league offensively but I don't think his presence alone will cast off the stagnation in the organization.
We shall see.

 

[Weevil]

As for the Buccaneers, its no secret the people who run the team are first degree idiots. They've bothced this coach search and must be one of the reasons they overpaid for Gruden. There was talk of Warren Sapp being included in the deal when it surfaced a few weeks ago but that was a sticky situation.

The Bucs are a team with shit for chemistry and Keyshawn's contract hovering like a piano waiting to fall. $13 million a year, what the fuck were they thinking?

They have a veteran team with some younger players but overall with salary cap concerns so its possible that they would have had trouble paying first round draft picks but it seems they killed the flexibility they may have had.

Gruden is a great coach, one of the best in the league offensively but I don't think his presence alone will cast off the stagnation in the organization.
We shall see.

The only thing I quibble with is your ragging on Keyshawn. He is one of the two or three best wideouts in football. I'm not completely convinced that he isn't the number one guy.

 

[christo]

This is a disasterous move by the Bucs. They have in Tony Dungy an excellent, respected head coach, then run him out of town (and then he's gobbled up in a heartbeat by the Colts), then they spend two weeks watching obscure college coaches say they don't want their job, and then they give up four high draft picks to land a guy whose team collapsed down the stretch last year and would have been available anyway next year.

A good coach is important, but having good players is more important. And giving up four high-round picks for a coach who hasn't been to a Super Bowl smacks of desperation.

 

[christo]

I'm thinking of all the wide receivers I wouldn't trade straight up for Keyshawn Johnson, contract or no contract:

Randy Moss
Marvin Harrison
Tim Brown
Jerry Rice
Plaxico Burress
Issac Bruce
Torry Holt
Troy Brown
Terrell Owens
Rod Smith
Ed McCaffery

I'm sure I'm missing a few other obvious guys as well. Keyshawn is the most overrated player in the NFL, by a mile. He had like 1 TD catch this year, he averages 10 yards a catch? When my Steelers beat the Bucs this year Keyshawn had something like 13 catches for 100 yards and he was invisible. They let him catch the dinky 7-yard square-outs that he specializes in. I can't remember seeing a highlight of Johnson catching a pass and then streaking through the secondary for a touchdown. He's not a deep threat, he doesn't seem to break big plays, he doesn't score touchdowns...why throw him the damn ball?

 

[modest mouse]

christo,

I do think Gruden is a good coach but as you point out not yet one of the greats to merit such payment, especially when he is a free agent nexy year and wanted to come to TB as his family has ties there. He might be the first coach in history hired for his potential, rather odd.

Weevil,

christo is dead on about Keyshawn. He is at best a mediocre wideout and a cancerous presence in the locker room.

The Bucs have now overpaid for him and Gruden. Lunacy.

 

[Weevil]

I'm thinking of all the wide receivers I wouldn't trade straight up for Keyshawn Johnson, contract or no contract:

Randy Moss
Marvin Harrison
Tim Brown
Jerry Rice
Plaxico Burress
Issac Bruce
Torry Holt
Troy Brown
Terrell Owens
Rod Smith
Ed McCaffery

I'm sure I'm missing a few other obvious guys as well. Keyshawn is the most overrated player in the NFL, by a mile. He had like 1 TD catch this year, he averages 10 yards a catch? When my Steelers beat the Bucs this year Keyshawn had something like 13 catches for 100 yards and he was invisible. They let him catch the dinky 7-yard square-outs that he specializes in. I can't remember seeing a highlight of Johnson catching a pass and then streaking through the secondary for a touchdown. He's not a deep threat, he doesn't seem to break big plays, he doesn't score touchdowns...why throw him the damn ball?

Without being impolite, if you wouldn't trade Plaxico Burress or Jerry Rice for Keyshawn straight up than you have no business calling yourself a football fan.

For the last five years he's played in offenses that didn't throw him the deep ball. He's got great hands, good speed, size, goes over the middle and runs beautiful routes. He's been asked to be a possesion receiver and he's the best in the NFL. Brad Johnson didn't throw his way inside the twenty. That's not his fault.

 

[Weevil]

christo,

I do think Gruden is a good coach but as you point out not yet one of the greats to merit such payment, especially when he is a free agent nexy year and wanted to come to TB as his family has ties there. He might be the first coach in history hired for his potential, rather odd.

Weevil,

christo is dead on about Keyshawn. He is at best a mediocre wideout and a cancerous presence in the locker room.

The Bucs have now overpaid for him and Gruden. Lunacy.

First, I don't know. I thought the Pats paid way, way too much for Belicheck. Doesn't look that way now though.

Second, we'll have to disagree on Keyshawn.

 

[lavender]

 

[Weevil]

Dear little insect,

You are quickly and with fervor destroying your so-called reputation of smartest guy on the board. Keyshawn is overrated as fuck. I can't believe you buy that "Throw me the damn ball" crap. For one season, I'd trade Rice for Johnson, no doubt.

Warm regards,
The Purple Football Knowledge Superior Texan

Sorry Lavs but we're going to have to disagree here. The Bucs play a boring move the chains style of offense. If they aired it out at all Keyshawn would be leading the league in receiving yards.

I mean, the man caught 106 balls this year. And you know what? He wasn't having his greatest season.

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Raiders win.

I'd trade Rice for Johnson only for the years left

He's had one good year, and average ones... he's overrated.

 

[modest mouse]

First, I don't know. I thought the Pats paid way, way too much for Belicheck. Doesn't look that way now though.

There are significant differences here though. For one, Belicheck had to be pried away from the Jets as he was going to accept a long term coaching stint with full control.

I dont recall exactly but the Pats paid about half what the Bucs paid and no cash. Wihtout the compensation they would not have received the coach the next year like the Bucs would have.

Also, Belicheck was familiar with the organization and the personell so his arrival was a fluid transition that added value to his hiring.

Second, we'll have to disagree on Keyshawn.

Yup.

 

[Weevil]

Raiders win.

I'd trade Rice for Johnson only for the years left

He's had one good year, and average ones... he's overrated.

I'm sorry but this is just driving me nuts.

What was his one good year?

99? Where he had 89 catches for around 1200 catches and 8 touchdowns?

98? Where he had 83 catches for about 1100 yards and 10 touchdowns?

Last year where he had 106 catches in 15 games?

His rookie year where he caught 8 touchdown passes with 850 yards while starting 11 times?

Also, is it me or do winning records follow him around. 3 years after drafting him did they go from 1-15 to the AFC championship?

 

[christo]

David Boston is another guy I wouldn't trade for Keyshawn. Forgot about him, was only the best wideout in the NFL last year.

I don't buy the theory that the Bucs wouldn't throw him the ball deep. They brought in Brad Johnson specifically because he was good at throwing deep. If they saw that Johnson could get open down the field, they'd throw him the ball.

It's true, the Jets went from the worst team in the league to the AFC title game in Keyshawn's first 3 years. And it's also true that the team decided that they'd rather be rid of him and his contract demands for two mid-round 1st round picks rather than hang on to him. Even among NFL players he's known as incredibly self-centered, and that's like saying that among Catholic priests he's a devoted churchgoer.

It's very hard to justify spending $13million on any wide receiver. A great WR can be a game-breaker, can catch that 80-yard TD that wins you the game. But even a great receiver isn't going to catch more than 6, 7 passes a game. If you're going to use that much of your cap space on 1 player, he'd better do a hell of a lot more than get you 1 touchdown.

 

[Weevil]

Let me, without beating the issue into the ground, see if I can respond to the issues brought up about Keyshawn

1) He's overrated

Can't see it. The man is a pro-bowl receiver.

2) He's bad in the locker room.

I can't say for sure. But you know, He's not so bad in the locker room that his teams don't win games.

3) He's inconsistent.

The only poor season he's had was last year where he only caught 70 passes for 900 yards. First off, that's not bad for an off year. Second that was in this horseshit offense with Shaun King at QB. Shaun King! Put a grownup in that offense and Keyshawn has the kind of year he had this year.

4) He's bad around the goal line.

In the five years before this year Keyshawn caught 39 touchdown passes. Or eight a year. That's pretty friggin good.

 

[Weevil]

David Boston is another guy I wouldn't trade for Keyshawn. Forgot about him, was only the best wideout in the NFL last year.

I don't buy the theory that the Bucs wouldn't throw him the ball deep. They brought in Brad Johnson specifically because he was good at throwing deep. If they saw that Johnson could get open down the field, they'd throw him the ball.

It's true, the Jets went from the worst team in the league to the AFC title game in Keyshawn's first 3 years. And it's also true that the team decided that they'd rather be rid of him and his contract demands for two mid-round 1st round picks rather than hang on to him. Even among NFL players he's known as incredibly self-centered, and that's like saying that among Catholic priests he's a devoted churchgoer.

It's very hard to justify spending $13million on any wide receiver. A great WR can be a game-breaker, can catch that 80-yard TD that wins you the game. But even a great receiver isn't going to catch more than 6, 7 passes a game. If you're going to use that much of your cap space on 1 player, he'd better do a hell of a lot more than get you 1 touchdown.

You're probably right about Boston, if only for his youth.

I'm not saying they won't throw the ball long. Just that, for whatever reason, they don't throw the ball deep. That's not how Dungy used his wideouts in that scheme.

I'm not sure what to tell you about the Jets trading Keyshawn. I could say that the Red Sox thought they'd be better off without Babe Ruth but whatever. I agree that it's a black mark against the man.

I agree that's a lot of money to spend on a wideout, but this is the league where Jake Plummer makes 6 million a year.

 

[Ice Cold]

Bucs/ TB trade.

Okay Tampa got a good coach out of it, but I think he was seriously overpaid for. Now you lose your two first pics and next years also. Not a good move for a coach who only had one year left on his contract. Tampa has given up three years of top rated pics not to mention the 8 million.

As for the Oakland side. Al Davis is getting a windfall in the pics department. Could be a plus, but how good has Washington done in recent years after they had all their number one pics? Plus there is the need of a good quality coach. I've heard ESPN mention Art Shell & Dennis Green. Both Decent in there own rights, but can they keep up the standard Gruden had even wit the extra pics. Somehow I don't see it happening. Gannon, Rice and Brown aren't getting any younger so they had better be using those pics to build for the future.

 

[SINthysist]

They have to want him long term

Otherwise, why else handicap his ability to get top-rated players? They could have been patient one more year. Gruden has yet to really prove himself. The only thing Tampa Bay did smart was asking for permission to talk to the other bay area coach, because I'm sure, ol' easy Al was trying to hold them up for a lot more!