Grinded vs. Ground

[TheWritingGroup]

You can’t smile a line of dialogue ...

I end up with a lot of speech like:

"I really don't think you understood what I meant." Janine smiled. No, she leered.

 

[RocketGrunt]

It appears 260 times in my ~24K word story. It would appear 300 times if there were 40 more lines of dialogue needing tags.

I don't find that repetitive in the slightest. YMMV, as kids around here like to say.

That is a war crime, and you should be tried in The Hague.

You can’t smile a line of dialogue, and it’s very dubious you can snort one unless the character possesses a pig-like snout. Your advice is sound but this is where you confused speech tags with action tags.

Action tags can be used as speech tags. If a character puts down their coffee, smiles, waves expansively, or whatever, you've identified who the text in the quotation marks is coming from.

 

[TheLobster]

Action tags can be used as speech tags. If a character puts down their coffee, smiles, waves expansively, or whatever, you've identified who the text in the quotation marks is coming from.

Right, but you need to know which is which because they have to be punctuated differently.

“You’re cute.” Rachel smiled.

is correct, whereas

“You’re cute,” Rachel smiled.

is not.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

Sometimes I get too scared of using "said" and out come phrases like:

The red, shiny lips parted to release the simple words, "I'm leaving you, Will. I can't forgive what you did." His eyes clung to her as she turned and walked away, his heart desperately hoping she would turn back.

It was only after the door closed behind her that he said, "Please, don't go."

 

[TheLobster]

Sometimes I get too scared of using "said" and out come phrases like:

Eh, I’d say that’s fine. A momentous announcement like this may warrant a little bit of flair. Indeed, in this scene, I’d replace “said” with “pleaded” to keep the tone more consistent.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I have various rules of thumb for speech tags. About one in four speeches need a tag, even if it's just between two people. You the writer might be able to keep their voices apart, but readers (including the writer coming back to it a few months later) will lose track.

I counted mine up once, over several stories. I'm fairly consistent, one in five get a speech tag, usually "said" or "replied", the rest have no tag at all, the speaker being obvious from context or from the to and fro of a conversation. If the exchange risks losing its way, and it's becoming unclear who the speaker is, I'll drop in a simple tag as a reminder.

Of those tags, at least half should be just 'said'. The rest should be mostly anodyne ones like 'replied', 'asked', 'went on'. Given that, you can then sprinkle in ones that are semantically more functional, like 'snorted', 'commanded', 'smiled', 'declared'. Don't reach out for colourful ones, but you don't have to avoid valuable ones if they're not excessive. (I'm not claiming I actually get this balance right in my published works.)

Agree absolutely. Over-elaborate speech tagging, especially for effects that the mouth cannot do, are for me a giveaway sign of amateur writing. If I'm not gone from a story already for other reasons, the first chunks of dialogue are often the final straw.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Sometimes I get too scared of using "said" and out come phrases like:

That was fine to my eye, other than "The red, shiny lips..." The "the" conjures up for me a whole bunch of disjointed, disembodied body parts floating around in the room.

"Her red, shiny lips..." puts those lips back onto the person.

I see that usage a lot in writing, especially on Lit. Perhaps it goes along with seeing characters as objects, not people; probably more likely, writers not thinking about it much.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Right, but you need to know which is which because they have to be punctuated differently.

This!

is correct, whereas

is not.

Yes, that's a very common mistake, seen often in threads where folk say, "I've just been knocked back for punctuation, can you help me find out why?" Confusing speech tags with an action sentence is nearly always the reason.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

That was fine to my eye, other than "The red, shiny lips..." The "the" conjures up for me a whole bunch of disjointed, disembodied body parts floating around in the room.

"Her red, shiny lips..." puts those lips back onto the person.

I see that usage a lot in writing, especially on Lit. Perhaps it goes along with seeing characters as objects, not people; probably more likely, writers not thinking about it much.

In this case, it's meant to show how disoriented and stunned he is. He's hyperfocusing on details to avoid acknowledging the situation.

Mind you, I pantsed up the entire story in 15 seconds, but that's the reason.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

You can’t smile a line of dialogue, and it’s very dubious you can snort one unless the character possesses a pig-like snout. Your advice is sound but this is where you confused speech tags with action tags.

So verb license does not apply to speech tags because apparently speech tags aren't verbs. : /

 

[pink_silk_glove]

"Whatever you say." She rolled her eyes.

You see but this is now two separate actions. When someone rolls their eyes while they are speaking, it really is one combined action. If you separate them, it sounds like she spoke, paused, and then rolled her eyes. Sentences are complete and contained ideas. Speaking with an eyeroll is one contained idea.

"Whatever you say," she said while rolling her eyes.
"Whatever you say," she said and simultaneously rolled her eyes.

These are both overwordy/clunky.

"Whatever you say," she rolled her eyes.

This is tight and conveys a perfect image.

While I do agree that a dialogue scene filled with inventive tags can get pretentious, picking your spots to sprinkle them in just makes the scene more immersive. If you cringe whenever you see one, you're probably just being a grammar snob.

Yes, you absolutely can smile a sentence. If you can waltz into a room, you can smile a sentence.

 

[BiCuriousWriter]

Is this a US versus the rest of the world thing?

For me, as a Brit, 'ground' is the only option (following the 'find/found' pattern).

Same here. Not a Brit but learnt British English.

But language is also changing, it always has and always will. Right now grinded might sound weird but in a few decades it is possible no one uses ground anymore. But for now grinded sounds weird and stupid.

 

[BiCuriousWriter]

She grinded her teeth in her sleep.
That sounds correct.
Not sure if it's relevant to the op, but I wouldn't say it as "she ground her teeth in her sleep"

I was taught ground here as well, not grinded.

 

[SimonDoom]

For new or inexperienced writers, the last five posts, in my opinion, are actually the most interesting. Something simple really that is often overlooked or not thought about. Sometimes 'accidental' writing tips and explanations are the best ones. And to be clear, this isn't sarcasm; I found those posts to be an insightful take on writing tags.

We've had a number of threads in the past on the subject of tags, and there's a wide variety of opinion on this subject. I take Elmore Leonard position in favor of using said and asked and keeping it simple. But many others disagree.

 

[anthrodisiac]

Damn, we're on the 4th page now... I wouldn't have thunk this is such a complicated topic!

And then once the thread dies, you'll be able to say, "Damn, this thing finally ground to a halt."

Next person:
GRINDED!

 

[Purechicanery]

"Whatever you say," she rolled her eyes.

Honestly, I don't like how this reads. It feels like you're trying to use 'rolled her eyes' as a replacement for 'said' and IMO it absolutely does not work at all.

 

[_Lynn_]

I end up with a lot of speech like:

"I really don't think you understood what I meant." Janine smiled. No, she leered.

That's one of the first things I learned from pilot.

 

[IWroteThis]

You see but this is now two separate actions. When someone rolls their eyes while they are speaking, it really is one combined action. If you separate them, it sounds like she spoke, paused, and then rolled her eyes. Sentences are complete and contained ideas. Speaking with an eyeroll is one contained idea.

"Whatever you say," she said while rolling her eyes.
"Whatever you say," she said and simultaneously rolled her eyes.

These are both overwordy/clunky.

"Whatever you say," she rolled her eyes.

This is tight and conveys a perfect image.

Well, that is definitely not an image I'd ever want to convey.

I agree your second example is clunky, but the first one isn't that bad. Still, I think this is no clunkier than your final version, with the benefit of proper grammar.

"Whatever you say," she said with an eye roll.

Yes, you absolutely can smile a sentence. If you can waltz into a room, you can smile a sentence.

Waltz is an action verb involving movement, which is why you can waltz into a room. That has no bearing on your claim that you can smile a sentence. Now, sneer could work, as it can include a vocal component, but smile does not.

 

[Statius]

"Whatever you say," eyes rolling

Or

"Whatever you say," her eyes rolling

 

[anthrodisiac]

I'm in the camp of action shouldn't be speech tag, but will sometimes violate it for the purposes of smoother prose or because I really like how it sounds. Usually in some kind of hybrid descriptive dialogue tag.

Something like:
"Oh," came out as a soft whimper. "I think I came a little."

Feels smoother than.

"Oh," she said, the sound coming out as a soft whimper. "I think I came a little."
"Oh." The sound came out as a soft whimper. "I think I came a little."

 

[IWroteThis]

I'm in the camp of action shouldn't be speech tag, but will sometimes violate it for the purposes of smoother prose or because I really like how it sounds. Usually in some kind of hybrid descriptive dialogue tag.

Something like:
"Oh," came out as a soft whimper. "I think I came a little."

Feels smoother than.

"Oh," she said, the sound coming out as a soft whimper. "I think I came a little."
"Oh." The sound came out as a soft whimper. "I think I came a little."

Whimper is a valid speech tag, and is soft by default. You could have just written:

"Oh," she whimpered. "I think I came a little."

 

[dirk2024]

We've had a number of threads in the past on the subject of tags, and there's a wide variety of opinion on this subject. I take Elmore Leonard position in favor of using said and asked and keeping it simple. But many others disagree.

I'm trying to get by with as few dialog tags as I can.

 

[crookedletter]

“I can’t believe this thread is still grinding on,” he grinded groundedly.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Waltz is an action verb involving movement, which is why you can waltz into a room.

So is smile. So is shrug. So is smirk. etc.

In fact it is even more appropriate to smile a sentence than it is to waltz into a room since the character speaking is actually smiling and the character entering the room isn't actually waltzing. Waltz is a metaphor that conveys a more vivid picture so that makes it valid. Smiling a sentence is no less valid.

I don't have a problem with anyone who doesn't care for metaphoric verb license on speech tags and their reasoning for not liking them is totally valid. But this whole notion that smiling or shrugging a sentence is improper grammar is not true at all.

I have a little bit of grammar snobbery myself. I always use 'that' in my narrative, as in "Sheila thought that his shabby attire was inappropriate for the occasion." Most people would leave out the that. I notice this and it trips me when I see it. I prefer to have the that in there, but that's just me and my preference. Leaving out the that is not a grammar error. I'm not going to be snobby about it.

Inventive speech tags are the same thing. You don't have to like them, but don't claim that they're grammatically incorrect, because they aren't.

 

[anthrodisiac]

Whimper is a valid speech tag, and is soft by default. You could have just written:

"Oh," she whimpered. "I think I came a little."

I could've, but I liked the flow of the one I went with more more. I try to avoid too many tags that aren't said, they tend to stack up and become pretty noticeable if you have a lot of them, and I was already pretty heavy on "he/she whimpered," so I went with a bit more flowy option. It also fit the mood and pacing around it better than the more simple "she whispered," and mood/pacing/flow factors into my decisions around using dialogue vs action tags.

You can also have loud whimpers, medium whimpers, hard whimpers, soft whimpers, all sorts. I wanted to capture the essence of her whimper's fragility, hence the explicit mention of softness.

I'm not a pretentious writer.

Promise.

Guys?

...hello?