Greetings/My current obsession

[DrDelirium]

I'm new here, have not yet posted any stories or anything- I'm still looking around. Long ago, in another life, I did some arting and writing, and am trying to get going again with both. One thing that has been on my mind for quite a while is the blending or, seen another way, violating of conventional formats and structures of narrative- specifically in regard to addressing the shortcomings of comics. I am interested in finding/developing approaches in which illustration, in the old fashioned sense, text, and serial panel art can each do what they are best at in carrying a story forward, or at least not be tasked with things they suck at. Erotica/porn seems like a good genre to experiment with this.
I'd love to chat with anyone who has an interest in such things.

 

[CoffeeWithMonkeys]

I'm not really sure I know what you mean, but I wanted to say
Welcome

 

[DrDelirium]

I'm not really sure I know what you mean, but I wanted to say
Welcome

Thanks for the welcome. Is that a "I'm not really sure I know what you mean, but I'd like to find out" or a "I'm going to try to be friendly to the noob even if he's talking complete drivel"? I'm cool with it either way.

 

[SamScribble]

CWM is not really sure what you mean; I have no idea what you mean. But I'd like to. Could you elaborate please? Oh, and welcome.

 

[CoffeeWithMonkeys]

Thanks for the welcome. Is that a "I'm not really sure I know what you mean, but I'd like to find out" or a "I'm going to try to be friendly to the noob even if he's talking complete drivel"? I'm cool with it either way.

hehehe
The first though. I'm always interested in New things. Of course it may go right over my head...
But yes I'd love to hear more.

 

[DrDelirium]

Nice to meet you, Sam and CWM

But yes I'd love to hear more.

Be careful what you wish for...

Basically, I think that these different media are each good at some things and not so good at others, and it would be interesting to see if one could use each only for what it's really good at. For instance, comics- sequential panel art- are great for action sequences, can be great for establishing the appearance and personality of characters, the feel of locations, and so on. They are not so great for extended dialogue- you end up with a bunch of talking head shots, a quick sketch of a head, or the back of a head, or the silhouette of a head, and a balloon with a dozen words in it. It's a lot of drawing for very little impact as a rule, and it's a huge amount of work if the artist tries to keep it from being boring and repetitive. An ordinary novel or short story format is much better at extended dialogue.
Old fashioned spot illustrations, on the other hand, can save the author a lot of tedious description, and being few and far between, they can rise to the level of actual art. See Howard Pyle, for instance. But, they can't really carry the narrative.
The conventions of each format- pure text novel, sequential panel art, or illustrated novel- are fairly restrictive though, and in conflict with each other. So figuring out how to mix them is a challenge.
So, that's what I'm talking about. Any thoughts are welcome, this is as much about the casual consumer as it is about the well-informed expert, which I hazard to guess doesn't exist, being as I haven't really seen any successful examples of what I'm talking about.

Still there? I hope I haven't bored you to death already.

 

[CoffeeWithMonkeys]

Nice to meet you, Sam and CWM




Be careful what you wish for...

Basically, I think that these different media are each good at some things and not so good at others, and it would be interesting to see if one could use each only for what it's really good at. For instance, comics- sequential panel art- are great for action sequences, can be great for establishing the appearance and personality of characters, the feel of locations, and so on. They are not so great for extended dialogue- you end up with a bunch of talking head shots, a quick sketch of a head, or the back of a head, or the silhouette of a head, and a balloon with a dozen words in it. It's a lot of drawing for very little impact as a rule, and it's a huge amount of work if the artist tries to keep it from being boring and repetitive. An ordinary novel or short story format is much better at extended dialogue.
Old fashioned spot illustrations, on the other hand, can save the author a lot of tedious description, and being few and far between, they can rise to the level of actual art. See Howard Pyle, for instance. But, they can't really carry the narrative.
The conventions of each format- pure text novel, sequential panel art, or illustrated novel- are fairly restrictive though, and in conflict with each other. So figuring out how to mix them is a challenge.
So, that's what I'm talking about. Any thoughts are welcome, this is as much about the casual consumer as it is about the well-informed expert, which I hazard to guess doesn't exist, being as I haven't really seen any successful examples of what I'm talking about.

Still there? I hope I haven't bored you to death already.

Not at all. I'll read in a bit when I get on the laptop, it's hard for me to read on my phone.

 

[SamScribble]

Nice to meet you, Sam and CWM




Be careful what you wish for...

Basically, I think that these different media are each good at some things and not so good at others, and it would be interesting to see if one could use each only for what it's really good at. For instance, comics- sequential panel art- are great for action sequences, can be great for establishing the appearance and personality of characters, the feel of locations, and so on. They are not so great for extended dialogue- you end up with a bunch of talking head shots, a quick sketch of a head, or the back of a head, or the silhouette of a head, and a balloon with a dozen words in it. It's a lot of drawing for very little impact as a rule, and it's a huge amount of work if the artist tries to keep it from being boring and repetitive. An ordinary novel or short story format is much better at extended dialogue.
Old fashioned spot illustrations, on the other hand, can save the author a lot of tedious description, and being few and far between, they can rise to the level of actual art. See Howard Pyle, for instance. But, they can't really carry the narrative.
The conventions of each format- pure text novel, sequential panel art, or illustrated novel- are fairly restrictive though, and in conflict with each other. So figuring out how to mix them is a challenge.
So, that's what I'm talking about. Any thoughts are welcome, this is as much about the casual consumer as it is about the well-informed expert, which I hazard to guess doesn't exist, being as I haven't really seen any successful examples of what I'm talking about.

Still there? I hope I haven't bored you to death already.

Ha ha ha. No you haven't. I shall go away and think.

 

[DrDelirium]

Ha ha ha. No you haven't. I shall go away and think.

Thinking... always a dangerous business.

 

[DrDelirium]

Not at all. I'll read in a bit when I get on the laptop, it's hard for me to read on my phone.

Cool. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I assume you've wandered by the Visual Artists Corner? You might find some folk there who are cross media - most here in the Authors Hangout are words words words. Lots of them, possibly too many, sometimes!

Welcome, btw.

 

[CoffeeWithMonkeys]

Not bored to death but maybe still not quite understanding.
From your first post I sort of thought, hmm maybe like comics, or what do they call them now, graphic novels? Or is that two completely different things?


And yeah we like words. Lots of words...

When I am writing I have to find images to put along with my story. I search the internet for such pictures that are in my mind if I don't already have a picture. Sometimes I write based on a picture.

 

[DrDelirium]

I assume you've wandered by the Visual Artists Corner? You might find some folk there who are cross media - most here in the Authors Hangout are words words words. Lots of them, possibly too many, sometimes!

Welcome, btw.

Glad to meet you, EB. I'll check it out.

 

[DrDelirium]

Not bored to death but maybe still not quite understanding.
From your first post I sort of thought, hmm maybe like comics, or what do they call them now, graphic novels? Or is that two completely different things?


And yeah we like words. Lots of words...

When I am writing I have to find images to put along with my story. I search the internet for such pictures that are in my mind if I don't already have a picture. Sometimes I write based on a picture.

When I first came across the term 'graphic novels' I thought, "Yes!" but in practice they are pretty much big comic books with (usually) better printing on better paper. In fact, most of them are just collections of a season or story arc of a comic book. I've only seen a couple that attempt to do something along the lines that I'm thinking about, and they were abysmal. One had an interesting mix of panel art and first-person text narration from multiple POV, but as it was about writers at a writer's retreat in the English countryside it had an uphill road to climb to begin with. With the focus on writers, it's not surprising that the panel art was boring and pedestrian, being pretty much a collection of 'what not to do.' What is ironic is that the writing was also pedestrian. "Write what you know" is not always the best advice.

I do notice something called 'captioning' in which someone takes an image generated by someone else and writes a few sentences about it- kind of inverse illustration. Sometimes that has interesting results. For one thing, the very short format doesn't require the solution of a lot of problems writers typically have. It's not what I'm talking about, though.

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

Welcome...but I'm afraid that I'm also a bit confused as to what you're trying to describe.

Be careful what you wish for...

Basically, I think that these different media are each good at some things and not so good at others, and it would be interesting to see if one could use each only for what it's really good at. For instance, comics- sequential panel art- are great for action sequences, can be great for establishing the appearance and personality of characters, the feel of locations, and so on. They are not so great for extended dialogue- you end up with a bunch of talking head shots, a quick sketch of a head, or the back of a head, or the silhouette of a head, and a balloon with a dozen words in it. It's a lot of drawing for very little impact as a rule, and it's a huge amount of work if the artist tries to keep it from being boring and repetitive. An ordinary novel or short story format is much better at extended dialogue.

Have you looked at 'From Hell' or some of the other works from Alan Moore? Many of his panels are exclusively dialogue between characters, and though the illustrations are a bit rough, they are used to showcase the setting, plot, and actions of the characters; not just head shots.

Old fashioned spot illustrations, on the other hand, can save the author a lot of tedious description, and being few and far between, they can rise to the level of actual art. See Howard Pyle, for instance. But, they can't really carry the narrative.
The conventions of each format- pure text novel, sequential panel art, or illustrated novel- are fairly restrictive though, and in conflict with each other. So figuring out how to mix them is a challenge.
So, that's what I'm talking about. Any thoughts are welcome, this is as much about the casual consumer as it is about the well-informed expert, which I hazard to guess doesn't exist, being as I haven't really seen any successful examples of what I'm talking about.

Still there? I hope I haven't bored you to death already.

So are you looking for a combination of illustrated panel art that contains the same amount of text as a novel? Is that the objective?

For something way out of the box, may I suggest taking a look at graphic novel versions of classic tales. There are even graphic novel 'pop-up' versions to some of the classics. Obviously that effect would not be attainable in a Lit format, but it is a different medium for sure.

There is a graphic novel version of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/34/af/d2/34afd26e339b1d35fbc297de61d027e2.jpg

And one for Bram Stoker's Dracula:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b1/f8/85/b1f88511b93ee58a2d51107aed6440f2.jpg

When I first came across the term 'graphic novels' I thought, "Yes!" but in practice they are pretty much big comic books with (usually) better printing on better paper. In fact, most of them are just collections of a season or story arc of a comic book.

They may all look like comics, sure, but there are many graphic novels that are trying to tell an original story.
Example: My Friend Dahmer
In this case, the graphic format is used to help the author recall the actions of Dahmer as a high school student, and then showcase those actions to the reader for a greater shock value than text alone can provide.



Huh, I just realized all of my examples are horror based...sorry if that's not your thing.
But again, welcome.

 

[tryn2Bgood]

Be careful what you wish for...

Basically, I think that these different media are each good at some things and not so good at others, and it would be interesting to see if one could use each only for what it's really good at. For instance, comics- sequential panel art- are great for action sequences, can be great for establishing the appearance and personality of characters, the feel of locations, and so on. They are not so great for extended dialogue- you end up with a bunch of talking head shots, a quick sketch of a head, or the back of a head, or the silhouette of a head, and a balloon with a dozen words in it. It's a lot of drawing for very little impact as a rule, and it's a huge amount of work if the artist tries to keep it from being boring and repetitive. An ordinary novel or short story format is much better at extended dialogue.
Old fashioned spot illustrations, on the other hand, can save the author a lot of tedious description, and being few and far between, they can rise to the level of actual art. See Howard Pyle, for instance. But, they can't really carry the narrative.
The conventions of each format- pure text novel, sequential panel art, or illustrated novel- are fairly restrictive though, and in conflict with each other. So figuring out how to mix them is a challenge.
So, that's what I'm talking about. Any thoughts are welcome, this is as much about the casual consumer as it is about the well-informed expert, which I hazard to guess doesn't exist, being as I haven't really seen any successful examples of what I'm talking about.

Still there? I hope I haven't bored you to death already.

I think I understand what you're talking about. I have no idea how to put that into practice though. I think the graphic novels referenced above are pretty good examples. The only other thing I can think of would be an illustrated novel. The writing mostly carries the story on its own, but the author could be relieved of describing mundane details by using some illustrations throughout. If you haven't seen what you're envisioning, there's a first time for everything...go make history!

 

[LeandraNyx]

Deleted

 

[DrDelirium]

Welcome...but I'm afraid that I'm also a bit confused as to what you're trying to describe.



Have you looked at 'From Hell' or some of the other works from Alan Moore? Many of his panels are exclusively dialogue between characters, and though the illustrations are a bit rough, they are used to showcase the setting, plot, and actions of the characters; not just head shots.




So are you looking for a combination of illustrated panel art that contains the same amount of text as a novel? Is that the objective?

For something way out of the box, may I suggest taking a look at graphic novel versions of classic tales. There are even graphic novel 'pop-up' versions to some of the classics. Obviously that effect would not be attainable in a Lit format, but it is a different medium for sure.

There is a graphic novel version of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/34/af/d2/34afd26e339b1d35fbc297de61d027e2.jpg

And one for Bram Stoker's Dracula:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b1/f8/85/b1f88511b93ee58a2d51107aed6440f2.jpg



They may all look like comics, sure, but there are many graphic novels that are trying to tell an original story.
Example: My Friend Dahmer
In this case, the graphic format is used to help the author recall the actions of Dahmer as a high school student, and then showcase those actions to the reader for a greater shock value than text alone can provide.



Huh, I just realized all of my examples are horror based...sorry if that's not your thing.
But again, welcome.

Horror really isn't my thing, which may be why I haven't come across these, but it seems to me that it would lend itself to the kind of thing I'm talking about better than, say, "On Golden Pond." I'm reluctant to judge too much from a single page viewed on a tablet, let alone a cover, but at first glance it would seem that the Dracula is exactly what I want to avoid, but the Frankenstein may be much closer to what I want to do. I must say, though, that it's a big type-setting fail, which is something I see a lot in attempts at mixed media. Legibility, you silly bastards! This is what I mean about conflicting expectations in different media- graphic designers and book designers tend to have very different backgrounds and ideas about what 'looks good'. When I can scrape together a few extra pfennigs, though, I'll see if I can get my hands on that Frankenstein. It certainly seems to be a move in the right direction.

 

[DrDelirium]

I think I understand what you're talking about. I have no idea how to put that into practice though. I think the graphic novels referenced above are pretty good examples. The only other thing I can think of would be an illustrated novel. The writing mostly carries the story on its own, but the author could be relieved of describing mundane details by using some illustrations throughout. If you haven't seen what you're envisioning, there's a first time for everything...go make history!

In a classic illustrated novel, the illustrations support the text, but they don't carry the narrative. While I do like that element- all those old illustrations from leather bound versions of the Arabian Nights are what got me into art in the first place- I think there's also room for sequential panel art to actually carry part of the narrative burden. What I don't like about comics per se is that they attempt to carry the entire narrative burden in sequential panel art, and it tends to result in flimsy stories and a lot of visually boring, half-assed pages where the narrative needs to be laid out, but there's really not much worth seeing. Comics tend to be approached like low-budget, low-tech movies, which by the limits of technology require a consistent format. But the printed page doesn't- or the screen-viewed page, either. I'm not up to trying to integrate motion into a novel format, but I suppose it could be done.

 

[DrDelirium]

First off, welcome, we're glad to have you here, but I am not so sure Lit is the best place for your work, especially if you're looking to move away from the traditional format of illustrated stories. There is an "Illustrated Stories" category here on Lit, but if you peruse the submissions, you find out very quickly that the site isn't built for anything beyond paragraphs of text, occasionally interspersed with images. That's it. If you're looking to write a combination comic/novel, you'd probably be better off developing a WordPress site and adding in an extension for posting webcomics.



If you haven't come across original, well written, expertly illustrated, inked, and colored graphic novels yet, then you're probably not deep enough down the rabbit hole. Check out anything Alan Moore has ever done, for a good example. I'm particularly fond of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and Watchmen. If you're into sci-fi, Saga by Brian K. Vaughan and Fiona Staples is an absolute masterpiece and in the realm of fantasy, I absolutely adore Castle Waiting by Linda Medley. What you can do with comics is absolutely incredible, but you do have to do (a little) digging since, like with most media, there's a lot more crap than there are diamonds.

Glad to meet you, LeandraNyx. I have noticed that Lit isn't geared toward presenting what I'm talking about- but then, what site is? I suppose I can just make a Tumblr or something when I actually have something going, but Tumblr lacks focus. Here I can at least share idea with people interested in erotic story telling of one kind or another. And, who knows? I may just write some stories. I'm not opposed to that.
I have, actually, seen League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and despite being quite enamored of the steam punk aesthetic, did not find it readable. Maybe I'm just too picky. At the moment I am limited by budgetary constraints to what I find online for free and the selections of my local library in Deepest Darkest Siberia, which are probably not exactly cutting edge, but I will note your suggestions and look for them. Thank you.

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

Horror really isn't my thing, which may be why I haven't come across these, but it seems to me that it would lend itself to the kind of thing I'm talking about better than, say, "On Golden Pond." I'm reluctant to judge too much from a single page viewed on a tablet, let alone a cover, but at first glance it would seem that the Dracula is exactly what I want to avoid, but the Frankenstein may be much closer to what I want to do. I must say, though, that it's a big type-setting fail, which is something I see a lot in attempts at mixed media. Legibility, you silly bastards! This is what I mean about conflicting expectations in different media- graphic designers and book designers tend to have very different backgrounds and ideas about what 'looks good'. When I can scrape together a few extra pfennigs, though, I'll see if I can get my hands on that Frankenstein. It certainly seems to be a move in the right direction.

Nor would I suggest judging based on a single page; the examples were added merely to help narrow down what specifically you were looking for. You must also remember that those are scanned copies of a printed page resized to fit the webpage they are from, and that legibility is clearer in the printed form. Plus, not every page in a graphic novel will have the same layout.

You could google image search 'graphic novel layouts' or 'graphic novel sample pages' for different ideas on how to set up various pages.

Or, perhaps, instead of focusing on graphic novels, you might want to consider viewing some examples of web comics purely for the aesthetics used, regardless of the content. I gather you would like to stay away from a more 'cartoony' feel, but they may still provide insight for ideas in terms of page lay out, text font, etc. if you are looking for what would look best on a web page vs. in a printed medium.

After all, art is about experimenting. Good luck in developing your own ideas.

 

[LeandraNyx]

Deleted

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I think the OP is schizophrenic.

 

[DrDelirium]

You really don't like comics, do you, lol?




It's already been done.

Only example of it I've seen is an old disk-based Mighty Tick comic, where it was really just a gimmick. And I like the Tick, for instance- it is what it is, and it works as a comic book, with or without animated gimmicks. I just think that the traditional comic book format is good for a limited range of things, and 'serious' comic book/graphic novel creators behave as if it's good for everything. I suppose that in a certain sense it is, like any medium, if one has the skill and refinement of judgment to utilize it properly. However, some mediums, some formats, lend themselves to some things more than others, and when you go beyond those limits, much more is demanded from the artist than is usually produced.

 

[DrDelirium]

I think the OP is schizophrenic.

I contain multitudes.