Grassroots Discussion: Technoslut

[Pure]

Welcome TS,

I am posting the link to the story you mentioned. Please post any specific quesions you have in this thread, which is assigned to your story.

[deleted material]
J.

Title: "From whence the lily blooms"

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=142222

 

[MLyons]

I hope Technoslut turns up.

I'll save my more in-depth comments for a little later, but I read this story and loved it.

There were some issues, and some hiccups here and there, and it could have been better executed, but the idea, the characters, the situation, and some of the associations and language that technoslut used were just beautiful.

The idea of Elizabeth coming as a response to Lily walking through the door was just... it was an "Oh my God!" moment for yours truly. And those are rare rare moments indeed.

Like I said, I'll save my in-depth critique for when I know TS is actually around, but I wanted to say that this was a story of GREAT potential and originality, and of somewhat frustrating execution. In a way it's fantastic, but in another way, it's a shame. I really hope that TS can join us here.

 

[TechnoSlut]

SO SORRY!

God, I feel so guilty, I didn't even really fulfil my critique obligations, I was gonna review way more than I did... things that plug into outlets tend to not like me at times, and my computer has been ona downward spiral of hatred toward me. I've beenchecking email and stuff at work, but I don't usually dare come near here at work--people have some pretty graphic avatars! I'm only here now because I was asked to switch shifts, blah blah blah, I'm all alone.

So PLEASE give it to me in depth (you can take that anyway you want it!) What's the frustration? The computer's supposed to be back up (crossing all sorts of fingers here) by Saturday at the very latest, and I'm working late again tomorrow anyway.

 

[Black Tulip]

I fully intend to read and comment, but I can't promis to do that this weekend.

Sorry, but real life heaped a load of work on my desk. I'll try.

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Bouncing my head,
I liked the story, I didn't like how it read.
~~~~~~
This simple sentence is like a real tongue twister.
-------
"They were good enough friends that Elizabeth knew she had better have a damn good excuse if she...
~~~~~~~~
The story starts, and it is very dry read.
It is more like I am reading a fact sheet than a story.
~~~~~~~~
There are a few places that just don't line up clearly.

She enters the bar and meets a slew of people, all very confusing. More than once I could not figure out who was who and who was talking never mind things like double drinks and "Down the stairs. The door. A small vestibule..."
~~~~~~~~
Just a bit too much inner thought, it was tolerable but confusing as all hell.
-----
"Double Luke, Jack,' she said and giggled, instantly recognizing her mistake and equally as instantly recognizing that she didn't give a damn. She could never be as unorthodox as Lily's friends thought they were, so who care how drunk she got? Who cared whose father she fucked?

Ooops, had she thought that out loud?

Of course not, one doesn't think out loud.
~~~~~~~~~
If I was to say I understood the ending I would be lying.
~~~~~~~
Over all I liked the story. From what I understood they are friends, most likely competitive friends.
But good enough Elizabeth feels guilted in helping her and viewing her act.
Lilly's Dad, seems to place like the cool old guy, the "Fonz" grown up more or less. Elizabeth ends up on the bathroom floor with him, and when her friend finds them. Elizabeth purposely wants to hurt her friend in a way of saying, "See I can get men too".

I am guessing the ending is a slight lesbian lead?

The story is arousing, entertaining, decent length, more or less a good topic to keep one entertained. I could sense and recognize the atmosphere, feel some excitement, even relate a little to the overall meaning.

It would be delightful if we knew clearly who was who talking, and a bit less inner thought. At least nix the inner thoughts of inner thoughts.

A few words like "progeny", "vestibule", "mandible" Just don't fit such a story in my opinion, it sends many readers lost or searching for meanings. And others wondering how such lax talk can generate $2 dollar words suddenly between 4th grade sentences.

The text is a bit sloppy over all, I prefer separations between characters, a space denoting a different character is speaking or taking movement. This story could have greatly benefited from an editor. Which could have made it a really great read verses it was good, after I figured it out.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

This is a very good story by a very smart writer, and I really admired it, but I think I admired it more than I actually liked it. I think maybe it was a bit too smart for itself, or maybe it was just too smart for me.

I think of stories like this as being stories of manner; you know, like a comedy of manners? That’s where the flavor and tone of the piece come from the satire of social customs and fashion. Stories like this tend to be very smart and witty (they have to be), but they’re often so busy skewering their targets that the story gets relegated to the background. Also, since they are satire and involved with the superficiality of society, they face certain problems when they try to be taken seriously. It’s hard to load any real emotional freight onto such a fragile vehicle unless you stop and change the entire tone of the proceedings. Mannerist stories can be really effective when a character manages to break the chains of social convention and hipness and really feel something genuine for once, but I don’t think that happens here.

I think that’s why Elizabeth seemed so superficial and uninteresting to me. The only emotion I recognized in her was lust, which puts the story, despite all the rally admirable wit and intelligence, on a par with the usual “Hi-how-are-you-let’s-fuck” type of Literotica story. A story of manners pretty much invites us to feel condescension for these shallow slaves to fashion, who are, after all, usually just caricatures, and so it’s hard to empathize with them or even recognize when they’re feeling something genuine. Lust is usually not a very deep emotion, especially not lust at first sight, and I kept on waiting for a glimpse of humanity beneath her surface: some doubt, some confusion, some self-examination. Instead it seems as if she came into that restaurant perfectly willing to fuck her friend’s father on the bathroom floor. It makes no difference to her.

Most of the action and interest in the first part of the story comes from the author’s observations and comments. the actual physical action is kind of hard to follow because it’s buried in all this exposition. This, to me, is where the story gets too hip for itself. I couldn’t take these people seriously. Worse, it put me as a reader into such a hip mindset, that when Lilly says "This is my father, Luke.", I thought she was just making a Star Wars joke (“I am your father, Luke…”) and I read through several paragraphs before I realized that it wasn't. That’s what I mean by story clarity being sacrificed for the sake of mannerist convention.

I also noticed that you had a lot of paragraphs where there were all sorts of people speaking at the same time. Given your obvious skill as a writer, I have to think that that was done intentionally, to give the feel of a party with everyone talking at once. If so, it was very effective, but still it made things hard to follow.

The sex was very good, especially where we were getting some descriptions of the objective action rather than Elizabeth’s subjectiv, internal descriptions of what she was thiking and feeling about that action. Lord knows that most Lit stories are missing any sort of subjective dimension, but in my opinion it’s very easy to overdo, and it puts us at a remove from what’s actually occurring.

Obviously you’re a tremendously talented and creative writer, and there’s so much in here that’s really excellent that I feel kind of petty for some of these criticisms. In fact, it’s really an excellent story. But to me, it was a bit too internalized and cold, and the wit got in the way of the action. I don’t think you should dumb it down, but there should be a way to describe the characters’ internal states in terms of objective story action, by what they do and the way they do it. That would get us out of Elizabeth’s head and more into the real world, where the really interesting things are happening.

Now I'm going to go read the other comments.

---dr.M.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Okay, I went back and finished the story, which I hadn’t before (reading it wore me out. I stopped partway down page 2), and I looked at Phildo’s comments.

So I’m not the only one who had trouble following the action at the beginning.

But having read the ending now, I admire even more what you’ve done. That was a very smart and sharp ending, although I have to say that I don’t think it’s quite cricket to suddenly introduce this envious and nasty side of Elizabeth’s personality only when it’s needed. Given the fact that there’s considerable back story at the beginning, it seems to me like there should have been at least a modicum of foreshadowing, some hint that all was not sweetness and light between Lilly and Elizabeth. If there was a mention of this, I must have missed it in the confusion of the bar scene.

I’m going to stick my neck out and guess that you’re a writer, but that you’re not really a porn writer. When I complained about having all the action filtered through Elizabeth’s mind, here’s what I meant. Consider this passage, in which Elizabeth is either having an orgasm or very near to it:

But what Lily wanted and what Elizabeth wanted were two different things. Elizabeth was tired of listening to Lily's version of dating as if it were the only way. Elizabeth was tired of being in the closet as a slut. Elizabeth was ready to sacrifice a friendship for what was already, with no penetration, her most fulfilling fuck ever.

In fact, she kinda wanted to see Lily's face.

It’s always odious to tell another writer how you’d do something, but I have to think that you could have shown us this information in the way Elizabeth acted rather than stopping to tell us what she was thinking. Elizabeth could have seen Lilly walk in, and suddenly started pushing her hips up at Luke, thrown her head back and screamed and made a big show of being a shameless slut, coming on her friend’s father’s cock. I think the readers would have figured out what was what, and you could show Elizabeth’s internal state by the evil satisfaction in her eyes when she saw the look of horror on Lilly’s face.

I’m a big believer in making the reader figure out what things mean, although I talk a better game than I write. (The fact is, I don’t trust the intelligence of the average Lit reader either, so I too tend to spell things out.) I think it’s one of the tricks to getting people involved in the story, making them participate in understanding why the characters are doing things and what they mean. This is what the old proscription about “showing, not telling” comes down to. Show them what happened, and let them figure it out.

One more thing: I wonder if that long chunk of backstory at the beginning was necessary. You have a perfect opportunity for filling us in on the girls’ history while Elizabeth is finding her way through the club, and the things Elizabeth might be feeling as she watched Lilly perform could tell us all we needed to know wbout their current relationship: a little envy, a little jealousy and resentment. It would have made her drinking and who-cares attitude more understandable, and would have avoided that “fact-sheet” feel that Phildo mentioned.

---dr.M.

 

[Omni]

This story has lots of good writer things about it. It shows maturity and intelligence. I like the depth of the character Elizabeth. I would read it again once it was worked over with a good edit.

A lot of times too many words are used in a sentence and it makes it a twisted journey for reader. Just one example:

____________________________________________________
A hot breath in her ear. A whisper. He hadn't spoken to her since Lily went on stage, paying due attention to the musical brilliance of his progeny. But now he was leaning in to pay attention to her, precious attention (for it) being from him, all the more precious (for it) being stolen from the fruit of his loins. Elizabeth was sure no fruit would taste better than his loins.

I would leave out both "for it" as unnecessary _______________________________________________


_________________________________________________

Lily couldn't pay (the) attention that due respect required.

Leave out "the"
__________________________________________________


There are a lot of extra small words in the story that need to be weeded out. Also:

Separating Dialog.

Breaking up large blocks of paragraphs, especially during the sexual part.

Using words like She to start every sentence, especially in the big blocks.

Using words like "even" twice in same sentence. Words like add on "own" Words like "quite" more than once in paragraph or sentence.


_______________________________________________
Faux Hawk gave a look of mock (look of) hurt.

typo take out one look of
_________________________________________________

______________________________________________-
"Laurel is a first rate porn writer and good friend." "It's called erotica when it's not videotaped, Lily" said the Value Village girl
who was apparently named after a cheap flower. "Whatever, its all porn to me," laughed Lily—another flower name Elizabeth belatedly realized as Faux Hawk burst in with "Are you saving the best for last or what, babe?" "Indeed I am. Elizabeth this is Marcus," but as Marcus graciously extended his hand Lily drove home her little joke by sweeping Elizabeth past him to the silver fox of her interest. "This is my father, Luke." Luke smiled and his dark blue eyes penetrated deep into Elizabeth's brain. Her jaw almost dropped, and she was glad she hadn't yet drunk anything: a shot of booze in her and her mandible would surely have betrayed her.

Break up all this dialog into each speakers separated indented sentences.
_________________________________________________


Those are just a few examples of too many to list here. I see the bones of a decent writer here. As for the plot, I appreciated the complexity. The entire having sex with your friend's married father was done well through Elizabeth's character and she fascinated me by the end of it.


Omni

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Shame and guilt, in the right situations, can feel a lot like freedom.

I should have mentioned before that I really like this. It's a conclusion I've come to as well, and it's one of the things that makes women's sexuality so fascinating.

---dr.M.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Technoslut,

An interesting story with above average writing. But IMHO, it’s wordy, which sometimes leads to awkwardness, and there are too many negative’s employed in the telling.

Wordiness is a touchy subject because it gets into the realm of the writer’s voice. But I’ll give a few examples from three early paragraphs of what I consider both wordiness and negative usage.

Remember, all of this is the subjective opinion of one writer given free of charge to another. Your chore is to decide if any of my bilge is valid and whether using even that would improve your writing. Keep up the good work.

Rumple Foreskin

--

“Not that Elizabeth didn't date. She dated. She just didn't date the same way Lily did.”

RF: Three straight sentences all using some from of “date.” And the entire passage could easily be condensed: “Elizabeth dated; just not the way Lily did.”

--

“Lily met a man through one means or another—mutual friends, the music circuit, Lavalife, the grocery store—and went on a series of dates with him, at some point sleeping with him, at some point making him her boyfriend, sometimes moving in with him, and on and on until the whole thing fell apart.”

RF: In fiction, you don’t run into a lot of fifty-five word sentences with two em dashes. There’s a good reason for that. To me the sentence is long, awkward, and confusing.

--

“Elizabeth chose not to do it that way.”

RF: Another negative sentence. There’s nothing wrong with using them, except you did it so much it caught my attention. The sentence could have been given a positive spin: "Elizabeth chose to do it another way.”

--

RF: "Elizabeth also met men (IN) a variety of ways. When she met a man (REPETITIOUS, OMIT “A MAN” ADD “ONE”) she wanted to date she asked him(OMIT “HIM” “…asked HIM for HIS…” IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF WORDINESS) for his phone number.(USED “SHE” THREE TIMES IN THAT SENTENCE) She did not give him hers. She called him and they went out on a date. (AWKWARD PRESENT TENSE. MAYBE “SHE’D CALL HIM AND THEY’D GO OUT ON A DATE.”) They fucked, she went home, tore up his number and forgot about him. She liked it better this way." (FOR WHATEVER IT’S WORTH, THAT FIFTY-NINE WORD PARAGRAPH CONTAINED FOURTEEN PRONOUNS “SHE, HIS, ETC.)

--

"Even thought she didn't think Lily would understand didn't mean she didn't feel theirs was a real friendship. They had a connection and had(OMIT "HAD") other things in common."

RF: “DIDN’T” USED THREE TIMES IN THE FIRST SENTENCE.

--

"Elizabeth had nothing but support and good will towards Lily."

RF: IF SO, THEN WHY DID SHE WANT TO HURT LILY WHILE ALSO NAILING HER FATHER AND WHEN DID SHE MAKE THE DECISION?)

--

RF: "So she dutifully showed up at Rocco's House of Rock on that early April Saturday night with her wallet filled(COULD OMIT "HER WALLET FILLED") with enough cash for cover and quite a bit of libation." (IMHO, WORDY)

 

[MLyons]

Technoslut,

As I said before I really liked this story, but there were a number of things that really held it back from being fantastic.

As others have said, it's clever... it's almost too clever, and sometimes I felt that the words, and the turns of phrase that you seem to so relish got in the way of the story you were trying to tell, which by and large was absolutely rivetting to me.

Let me explain what I liked:

Elizabeth -- what a deliciously evil character, taking what she wants and getting it. She realizes what she's doing, and does it anyway, even relishes in it. She lets sex, and arousal, and lust, and her "id" be her guide--in many ways a long pent up need to be herself, no matter how despicable it may seem to Lily or her father. At once taking pleasure in the flesh, but also in the power she had to elcit the inevitably complex reactions that her actions would cause.

Now... that might not have been your intention, but it was this brilliant chracterization, and the brilliantly complex consequences that made the story work so well for me. As I said, the moment of Elizabeth's orgasm blew me away, and was beautifully arousing in an evil kind of way. The ending of the story was... fascinating. I don't have any words other than that. I loved it.

In terms of your language, here's a passage that I especially loved:

Down the stairs. The door. A small vestibule, door to the men's on the right, door to the women's on the left. One deep deep breath and she turned, locked eyes, and slowly backed into the women's. She knew it. Along with the anticipation there was the glorious thrill of being right. He was hers. He had made no move to enter the men's. He followed her as surely as if her gaze were a leash.

I'm jealous. I truly am. This was beautiful.

Now... on to a few things I didn't like:

There were often times that the action took a back seat to the explanation. Especially during the sex scene, there were moments where tangents seemed to happen and I lost the sense of "show" and had to deal with a bit of "telling". It interrupted the flow. Another thing that I thought interrupted flow was the overabundance of very complex language and passages. In a way it was part of your style, and I hate to criticize specific things because your style is what brought us the above passage. It just seemed a bit too much at times.

Also the story seemed, I don't know... a bit TOO econimcal in some ways, and not econimcal enough in others. It seemed to concentrate a bit too much on being clever, and not enough on exploring the ins and outs of what happened, especially when it came to the sex scene at the end. Elizabeth's feelings are of paramount importance to the story, don't get me wrong, but I lost the sense of how the sex scene progressed. I couldn't follow the positions you described very well. The descriptions of the actions just seemed lacking in a way. And finally, the ending, which is the crux of the story to me just seemed to fly by--it didn't seem to linger on Lily's reactions long enough. It didnt' seem to relish in Elizabeth's discovery of what this felt like enough. It didn't seem to give me a complete sense of the possible meanings and consequences of what Elizabeth had just done. I don't want it spelled out for me, or anything. I just wanted a little more... just a little more of what happened--reactions, looks, significance in a way, etc. Perhaps this was also a function of not having a throughline--hints of these feelings and of Elizabeth's unrest from the very beginning.

Anyway, that's what I thought. I could be giving bad criticism, as always, so take it or leave it.

I would definitely be interested to see more of your stories if you decide to continue writing them, though.

 

[Lying Eyes]

Re: SO SORRY!

I've beenchecking email and stuff at work, but I don't usually dare come near here at work--people have some pretty graphic avatars!

You can turn off the avatars from displaying and signatures also if you go to the options in your control panel.

Now for some notes and thoughts on your work...

Please TechnoSlut can you promise me you will use literotica's volunteer editor program next time before you decide to submit a story? I think you have real talent but your work I found hard to get into at first. In needs to be smoothed out. Their are plenty of inteligent editors more then willing to help you iron out your work. In fact you can send your unedited piece to more then one editor and stick with the one you feel most comfortable with.

You mention Lily's new boyfriend and about him being a painter but you add this for some reason...

-and he worked at the deli counter of a fine foods store in the northern which meant 'wealthy' part of the city.

This is an example of something an editor would likly cut down, delete or modify. Seems almost pointless info dump about Marcus. I thought he would actualy have a major role in the story but he is just a piece of the scenery. I guess one reason to say so much info was to show Elizabeth remembered everything Lily said about her boyfriend but in that case should of shown how much Lily hated hearing/reading about it. Though later you do mention this line...

...made sympathetic comments that she hoped came across as empathetic

This is very good stuff, it hints the real Elizabeth really doesnt want to know but pretends she does care. I wish you build on thoughts like these that shows earleir on that they were not such close "buddies" and Elizabeth resented her. A layer of bitterness should be revealed early in the story so the end would be more logical.

This line contradicts the ending...

Elizabeth had nothing but support and good will towards Lily

This line contradicts Elizabeths behaviour...

What else could she want from life? A boyfriend perhaps.

This is intresting, because later she seems to be okay with just being sluty. I was thnking as I was reading this, maybe Elizabeth really does want a boyfriend but has commitiment problems. That line early on sugests she does want more then a good job and a good sex life.

Elizabeth is a very intresting character, you did a very good job bringing her to life but I am so intrigued with her that I feel not enough was brought out into the open with what is running inside her head. I want to know more about her. What makes her tick? What's behind her behaviour? What are her insecurities? Does she even know the answers to these questions? Still trying to discover or uncover what is hidden inside?

She asks...

Why would she want to hurt her friend? Perhaps she was a bad person.

Their got to be more to it then that. I see their was a sense of freedom to her in the act at the end but their should of been some simmering hatred towards's Lily early on so it would build up to the conclusion. It might seem repetitive what I say but I so wished you dropped lots of hints that Elizabeth holds inside of her a venom towards Lily and maybe the poison was mutual between each other held back by politeness. Maybe Lily talks down to her, treats her with some contempt. Maybe her father pays her way so she doesnt have to really work unlike Elizabeth. Maybe Elizabeth is jeolous that Lily has a family and lots of friends suporting her unlike Elizabeth which is more distant towards those around her. Maybe Lily acts so pure and clean that it makes Elizabeth feel worthless. Little friction and sparks here and there, then the explosive ending would be so much more rewarding.

But now he was leaning in to pay attention to her... ...all the more precious for it being stolen from the fruit of his loins.

This is really, really good writing in my opinion. That's gold!

Her breasts fit with Elizabeth's like a jigsaw puzzle

I loved that line, a visual treat for my mind.

One thing I did not like was her "juice" spraying right on Lily's shoe. Thats pushing it. Not crediable at all. Better off to mention how she knew it was dripping to the floor and how she wished it reached Lily's body.

Little flashes of brilliance in this work, just needs a bit of molding. I really hope you continue writing and can develop that talent you have.

 

[Black Tulip]

TechnoSlut,

I'd like to start with saying I read your story with a lot of pleasure. In fact, I think I would have merely enjoyed the tale without any comment at all, if you had not asked for criticism.

I'll give my critique first, so it is very possible all has been said but I prefer to read the others afterwards.

Well then, having put my remarks in the proper perspective:

The first paragraph left me a bit breathless. Cramming in a lot of information. Then in the second you mention a paying gig. That had me 'huh? did I miss something?'
I thought they had both since long left school, so a first paying gig had me wondering.

Then, you suggest they are long time friends, but that can't be true given the end. I can relate to best friends drifting slowly apart, little things starting to eat away the friendship, but you don't show me that. Not enough at least, in my opinion.

In these conversations Elizabeth made sympathetic comments that she hoped came across as empathetic.

This suggests a kind of deception, but why? If they are really best friends she wouldn't have to try, she would be empathic.

Even thought she didn't think Lily would understand didn't mean she didn't feel theirs was a real friendship. They had a connection and had other things in common. Elizabeth had nothing but support and good will towards Lily

I think this would be a good place to insert something other than good will.
They shared a history but had little other things in common.

For starters they view their lovelife from totally different angles.
I liked the way you stated Elizabeth's way of handling things. Short, staccato sentences conveying a very businesslike feeling, no-nonsense. I don't know if you did that on purpose, but I liked it. Kind of: this is the game, these are the rules, this is how I play it.

I had a bit of trouble with your choice of words sometimes. I think my grasp of English is fair enough, but you really had me searching the dictionary a few times. There's nothing wrong with that, but I have a feeling most Lit readers will not take the trouble.

One of them, a lanky faux hawked alpha male type, seemed a likely suspect to be Lily's newest romantic interest.

Not specifically for your story, but could somebody please explain what is meant with an alpha male? I can't find it in dictionaries. Probably because it's semantics from the last decade or so? And it's not something I know from my own language. I can guess, but that could be totally wrong.

skeezy = sleezy? Or is that another word I couldn't find?

On the other hand, I was able to really savor your sentences. That is what I do when I read good language. Tasting and chewing the words and then go back and chew some more.

Drinks drinks drinks. Never had social lubrication seemed quite so... lubricating. The air itself was moist with humidity but Elizabeth was sure it couldn't compare with the moisture occurring in her panties. She was drinking Jack Daniels with Lucas. It was a fitting drink for him, and she wanted to fit. Or rather, she wanted him to fit into her. She knew her mouth tasted like whiskey; she wondered if the rest of her did as well.

You fit (LOL) words into words into words. I like that. It reminded me of making a chain of daisies.

Well, her lyrics almost inevitably contained phrases Elizabeth had said in conversation with her. This wasn't the first time this had occurred to Elizabeth,

Now, it could be that I am a mean bitch, but if my friend did that with me I would be royally pissed if she never said a word about it to me. I think I would feel very used.
That could be a reason for screwing her, through her father perhaps, but you do not even hint at something like that.

All in all, I can understand the way Elizabeth behaves, but I think you could have made it more clear, better in my view.

Trying to think if I have a "friend" with a father like that. Very hot sex as far as I am concerned.

 

[TechnoSlut]

Thank you all for your comments, they were for the most part quite helpful. I do have a slightly sardonic reaction to the suggestion I use the volunteer editors, but not because I don't plan to take it—I certainly do—but because this site is filled with some of the least grammatically correct crap I have ever seen. My sentences are long and complicated, but at least I know what constitutes a sentence!

And now that that snarky bit of bitchery is out of way: dr_mabeuse you are correct. I am a writer, but this is my first venture into genre erotica. It seemed to make so much sense, as sex permeates all my work and certainly dominates my life.

However, obviously my style is not particularly fitting for the erotica realm, which, of course, is something I can work on. This is very much my 'voice' though: contorted sentences, repetition (Foreskin, my use of the word 'date' 3 times in a row was quite purposeful) and a juxtaposition of the vernacular with more highbrow language. (Tulip, 'skeezy' is vernacular; as for 'alpha male' I could explain it here, but it's probably be easier all around for you to just run a google search.)

Ok, about the goodwill line, I thought that it was obvious that that was Elizabeth's perspective--everything is Elizabeth's perspective--but is belied by other little things, like not being honest with her friend about her dating habits, not having an open mind towards her friends friends, etc. So the evil-mindedness of the 'climax' isn't supposed to come out the blue, their friendship is supposed to be subtly damaged, even insofar as Lily uses Elizabeth's words in songs without asking. So what I'm geting from you guys it's that it's too subtle?

Well, there's more than one comment in here about wanting to get out of Elizabeth's head, so if I try that I might be able to delineate their dysfunction more. But I really shudder at blatancy, you know?

Thanks for all the backstory criticism, I really need to unload most of that crap.

And in closing: Lying Eyes, I'm sorry that Elizabeth's female ejaculation lacks credibility with you, but have you ever seen it? I can shoot across rooms, large, large rooms.

 

[Lying Eyes]

And in closing: Lying Eyes, I'm sorry that Elizabeth's female ejaculation lacks credibility with you, but have you ever seen it? I can shoot across rooms, large, large rooms.

!!! My eyes practicly fell out of my sockets with that image ingrained in my head!!! I guess writing is not the only talent you have

 

[psychocatblah]

OK, I read the story and skimmed the comments a bit so I wouldn't beat a dead horse. This is also my first time at a critique so you forever get my cherry with it.

I really enjoyed the story, the mature fantasy is one we share and... well... perhaps Elizabeth and I have a bit more in common than I should reveal *smirks*

I very much enjoyed that play of repulsion/attraction that played out in Elizabeth's head. If I were to do much of anything there I might swipe some of the exposition from the start and feed a few bits in there, although that might mess up the pacing a bit. So it's really just a thought.

Like many of the others I was a bit put out by some basic grammar things that either an editor or popping it into Word might've caught. As you mentioned, you are certainly not the worst-ever violator of grammarrules, but it did make me have to reread a few paragraphs just because I got a little tangled in sententence structure.

Here:
She surveyed the rest the rest of Lily's friends. Hot young artfully Value Village chick. Skeezy guy, the kind who gives dreads a bad name. Her eye was caught by an older man, a man in belted jeans, a man with a short trimmed greying beard. Older suddenly seemed synonymous with better. Skeezy dreaded guy grabbed her hand suddenly and she realized with an inward start that Lily was introducing her around. To late to catch the dreaded guy's name, Lily was moving on already.

Got really confusing for me. Maybe because of some of the lingo. Although mostly it was that Value Villiage chick is a fragment and so that little trip made me kind of hiccup at the other characters you were introducing. Were it me, I'd probably employ ye olde colon after Lily's friends and then fragment away with comma connectors, but that may or may not help things. And, of course, "too" late. But that's getting nitpicky.

I also wasn't super clear with the info at the start which was Lily and which was Elizabeth. Obviously, when Lily hit the stage they finally detangled in my head, but it was kind of hard for me to get a good grip on who was what. It was just such an information glut right then, but it does resolve itself, so it's up to you if you find it problem enough to rewrite.

I hope that helps!

 

[drlust]

Hi TS:

I read this story when it was first posted in the discussion and liked it very much. I was about to comment on it and then got overwhelmed at work and didn't. Sorry to be so slow. Now I've read all the other comments and, well, I can't say I agree with some of what was said above--the comments picking at the language of the story bother me. Why? I appreciate well-crafted language for itself and only wish I could turn a phrase like much of what I read in this story. In other words, I wouldn't change much.

A question: You wrote "Shame and guilt, in the right situations, can feel a lot like freedom." I think this sentence is brilliant, both because it is such an important insight, but more because at that moment it was exactly the right idea in the story. Did this come out of your head, or did you read it somewhere? I ask, not to accuse you plagiarism(!), but because if it came from somewhere else, I'd like to have the reference so I could read on.

Now a comment: What I think works best in this story is the rythm. You've done a very nice job of leading the reader forward, picking up the pace at certain moments, slowing at others, then ending up at a crash. In particular, I appreciate the way manipulate the structure of your sentences to achieve this. Whether intentional or not, it works.

Comment two: The only thing I missed in the story was a bit more help visualizing Elizabeth and Luke. I've read it twice now and still have a hard time calling up an image of either one of them in my head. If this was intentional, scratch this comment. If it wasn't, then I would like to know just a bit more about what they look like. Why? I'm a reader who forms firm images of characters in my head and this then helps me see the expressions on their face -- like the moment when Luke's tongue slips out of his lips as Elizabeth is sliding up and down his shaft. I suppose it is for this reason that I don't tend to go to movie versions of favorite books -- I don't want to spoil my vision of a character by replacing his/her visage with that of an actor.

I think this is three cents instead of two, but it's what I thought about as I read and re-read the story.

Allan

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I've been thinking about this story, and have read the other reviews, and I have some final thoughts, for what they're worth.

(1) You don't need an editor. You're light years ahead of most of the editors you'll find here, and unless you can hook up with one who understands and appreciates your style for what it is, you'll probably end up with them giving you a bunch of silly, MSWord grammar-checker type suggestions.

(2) It seemed to me as I was reading that you were in complete control of your style: the rhythmic repetition, the use of slang, the sentence fragments. They were all consciously done as far as I could tell, and I never felt that you were ever less than in perfect control of what you were saying and the way you said it. That's why I guessed that you were an experienced writer. Tyros don't have that kind of control or that kind of nerve.

(3) The sex, like most of the story, was very hot and very intelligent, a very rare and valuable combination. Don't you dare dumb yourself down.

(4) I still think that the main weakness in the story is that the real action got kind of lost in the comedy-of-manners buzz. It's not so much a matter of your having to be more blatant in dropping hints for the readers, but of toning down the background chatter so the telling gestures and details come through. Your characters are driven by all these trivialities of social gamesmanship, but underneath there are darker and more powerful emotions at work, and that has to be made clearer to achieve real dramatic effect.

It's a smart story--maybe a bit too smart--but I do look forward to more. I'd be very interested to know when you've got something else ready.

Best,

---dr.M.

 

[Lying Eyes]

I withdraw my request that you look for the help of an editor. Since you have a background in writing other then literotica I am sure you know what your doing. And while their are a few outstanding volunteer editors, their are also quite a few mediocre ones. As dr_mabeuse pointed out it would be hard to find one that can fully grasp your unique style. Some editors may be tempted to butcher it or dum it down for the masses.

 

[psychocatblah]

I withdraw my request that you look for the help of an editor. Since you have a background in writing other then literotica I am sure you know what your doing. And while their are a few outstanding volunteer editors, their are also quite a few mediocre ones. As dr_mabeuse pointed out it would be hard to find one that can fully grasp your unique style. Some editors may be tempted to butcher it or dum it down for the masses.

Maybe it's just me, but if you're putting your work before people to ask for what its flaws are, then you're probably prepared to see people question grammatical errors: intentional or not. If it halts readers in the middle of your story, you probably want that pointed out. Then the author can decide whether or not to follow your suggestion. But were I you, I wouldn't feel bad about suggesting it be edited. It's your opinion, which was what was being solicited. And you know that there's a certain part of the audience who will frown upon a disregard for standard grammatical usage. So I think it's still a good point to make, but if it's part of the author's voice, they may or may not make changes based on the suggestion.

I don't think proper grammar would dumb it down, but it might interfere with the flow. You could always shop it out to a few editors just to see what you get back if you're curious. Having them look at it doesn't obligate you to use the results if you don't like them. Just might give you something to think about. And who knows, you might find one you actually like and who can appreciate your style.

Just some thoughts.

 

[TechnoSlut]

There are no grammatical 'errors'. I'm sorry if this seems haughty, but I am a grammar nazi and have been since I was a wee child being raised by my English teacher momma. Since this is creative, not formal, writing I have availed myself of the liberty generally referred to as 'poetic license.' Anything you may consider a mistake is actually a stylistic choice. That doesn't mean any specific example is a GOOD stylistic choice, and I'm quite open to critiques of style, just please don't consider it bad grammar, or I will consider your own understanding of grammar deficient.

And yes that passage psychocatblah quoted was supposed to be confusing: it was supposed to invoke that sensation of walking alone into a crowded club and being bombarded with all these varying sensations and stimuli that you can't quite process yet. Perhaps it didn't work and was only off-putting, I shall have to look at it again.

Truth be told though, I don't know if I'll bother: what would be the point of polishing this story up when I've already posted it here? I'll probably just write another, but I've got a play script to work on for the next little while.

dr_mabeuse: thanks, that's very insightful, and exactly the kind of commentary I need.

 

[psychocatblah]

There are no grammatical 'errors'. I'm sorry if this seems haughty, but I am a grammar nazi and have been since I was a wee child being raised by my English teacher momma. Since this is creative, not formal, writing I have availed myself of the liberty generally referred to as 'poetic license.' Anything you may consider a mistake is actually a stylistic choice. That doesn't mean any specific example is a GOOD stylistic choice, and I'm quite open to critiques of style, just please don't consider it bad grammar, or I will consider your own understanding of grammar deficient.

And yes that passage psychocatblah quoted was supposed to be confusing: it was supposed to invoke that sensation of walking alone into a crowded club and being bombarded with all these varying sensations and stimuli that you can't quite process yet. Perhaps it didn't work and was only off-putting, I shall have to look at it again.

Truth be told though, I don't know if I'll bother: what would be the point of polishing this story up when I've already posted it here? I'll probably just write another, but I've got a play script to work on for the next little while.

dr_mabeuse: thanks, that's very insightful, and exactly the kind of commentary I need.

You're right, it does seem haughty. Not that I don't take the same position from time to time. I just usually don't dangle it in front of the faces of people trying to help me.

 

[Black Tulip]

...
Truth be told though, I don't know if I'll bother: what would be the point of polishing this story up when I've already posted it here? I'll probably just write another, but I've got a play script to work on for the next little while...

TechnoSlut,

I'm not sure if you meant it like this. But your post gives me the impression I have been investing my time and energy into a story you have no further interest in.

Honestly, that is rude. Why put it up for critique if you do not intend to use what other people offer you in advice. I am perfectly capable of wasting my own time. Please don't waste it for me.

I come here because I like it. Taking part in this circle is my way of contributing in some small measure. That does not necessarily mean my effort is valuable, but you could at least treat it with respect.

 

[TechnoSlut]

Crap, I'm sorry. Really critique at all is valuable for growth as qwrite in an ongoing manner, and not just applicable for any one spcific story that might be the current focus. I definitely want to write more erotica, and need to adapt my voice to it, need to learn the details of the genre, that's why I need critique: just as the first story one ever writes is most likely to be of lesser quality than when one matures, so I think ones first experiment in any one genre is just that: an experiment, and ultimately just a stepping stone to more mature work.

But I do feel terribly guilty now, and that's a good a motivator as any, so I will actually work on this story! Besides, I can see how having a nicely polished Rot story to whip out at a moment's notice could be a boon to future seduction efforts!

 

[Black Tulip]