Grassroots Discussion: drlust

[Pure]

up for this week, 5-16

welcome dr.,

the operation is about to begin; the patient is on the table.

dr lust, "on the table"

http://www.literotica.com:81/stories/showstory.php?id=138029

maybe the good dr can provide some concerns or questions to help focus discusion

 

[dr_mabeuse]

'The patient is on the table!" Very clever, Pure.

A Doctor never criticises a colleague, but this is a special exception.

I was all set to complain about the stuffiness of this story--the narrator is an academic and his prose is quite formal and more than a bit pedantic—but as I got into the story I realized that the piece derives much of its erotic tension from the author’s style; the tension between the reserved tone of his prose and the lewdness of what finally happens. In the end I thought it was a charming little story and refreshingly original..

It didn’t start that way. In fact, the beginning is kind of discouraging, and if I hadn’t been reading this for the specific purpose of reviewing it, I might have bailed out before the action started. It seemed to me like there was more initial set-up and explanation than was really necessary and the beginning drags a little, although it does give the narrator time to present his credentials and give us a good feel for what he’s like. I also got a little disappointed when it seemed like this was going to be just another sex-with-my-maseuse story, but it takes a surprising turn at this point and it turns out to be something else though, more original and more interesting.

The story involves something I’ll call a fetish, to keep from giving it completely away, and one that has no special attraction for me, though I appreciate the fact that it appeals to a lot of people. I couldn’t help but wonder whether the act he performs wouldn’t have benefitted from more detail. We get a lot of what he’s doing—his technique--but it seems to me that a lot of the heat in something like this comes from her reaction to what he’s doing and his own feelings about it. I would have liked to know more about what he felt while he was doing it, and especially more about her reaction.

In the end, I don’t think anyone’s going to cream in their jeans from reading this, but then it’s not that kind of story. It does have a subtly wicked edge, and I find it kind of growing on me as I think about it. Maybe the act described does appeal to me more than I thought. In any case, it surprised me, and I thought it was quite good.

---dr.M.

 

[MLyons]

Hi drlust,

I read your story, and I'll do my best to give you some useful comments. If you have specific questions, I'll be sure to comment further after I see them. I haven't read Dr. M's comments yet, so some of what I say might be repeating him, or it might not, but I find it's better to give a gut reaction without any influences the first time I respond.

I have to admit that for me (and this is just me) your story had a few marks against it right up front because of the specific scenario you evisioned. My wife is a massage therapist, and having gotten several massages in that capacity myself, I can't divorce myself from the ethics of the profession. So the premise of your story kind of left me less interested at the get-go, but that doesn't mean you couldn't have changed my mind. The only problem is that you really never did.

First let me say that your story was well written, and it was very congruent within its own world. By this I mean that the protagonist has a strong sense of character. He's intellectual, and on the pretentious side even, and with the first person point of view, his perspective permeated every aspect of the story without completely losing site of the other characters. Well done!

On the other hand, and perhaps this is the downside, I had trouble relating to the protagonist because I got the sense I was being talked down to for the first quarter or so of the story. The bits about "mutual intillectual masturbation" and the fluency in Hungarian just seemed to distance me from him. This was especially true in this bit, the only place where the narrator deigns to mention his reader:

You may not recognize the name as female, but as a specialist in things Hungarian, I knew that only Hungarian parents name their daughters Ildiko.

It's great because it defines this guy all that much more with that kind of pedantic mentality, but at the same time, it distanced me from the character, and I'm even somewhat of an intellectual type myself. In any case, it's something to be aware of if nothing else. If you intended it, great, it might help some people get into your story. For me, though it had the opposite effect.

I did have trouble getting a handle on Ildiko, however. There's something to be said for not giving too much description for sure, to leave the specifics to the reader's imagination. In this case, however I still had trouble envisioning her. The way she talked and the way you describer her just didn't meld into a character that I could see in my mind--a little blurry in a way. Again, that could just be me.

When the sexual action really started is when I started to tune out a bit, but I'm pretty sure that was due to my lack of interest in the massage therapist set up. I guess for me, the detailed descriptions of what he did to his penis held a lot less interest for me than if you had concentrated more on the specifics of how Ildiko reacted. I think that a lot of possible excitement was lost there because there was a lack of real tension, or interaction between the characters. Perhaps that was a problem of their conversation beforehand, or simply you not bringing that to the forefront during the action. It seemed to me more a tale of solo masturbation where someone else just happened to be in the room (a person that the narrator admits that he "couldn't read"), than that of exhibitionism where there was a connection of some kind (good or bad) between the characters. But really, what to I know?

There were another couple of little things. At the beginning of the story, the narrator says this:

Inquiring at the front desk, I found out that if I was willing to wait into the early evening, I could indeed schedule a massage. When the pleasant young woman at the reception desk pulled out the schedule, I noted that at 7:00 p.m. the opening was with a woman named Ildiko, so I asked for that appointment.

You may not recognize the name as female, but as a specialist in things Hungarian, I knew that only Hungarian parents name their daughters Ildiko.

Then later on, he mentions how he normally likes to get massages from males, because they can give more athletic massages. What made him decide specifically that today, he wanted a woman?

Another minor quibble:

"I stopped worrying about that a long time ago," I replied, dropping my robe to the floor and climbing onto the table, fully naked. She draped a blanket over my lower body, turned on some kind of atmospheric music that was just loud enough to muffle most of the sounds from the gym just beyond the door and lit a scented candle.

All this I deduced from hearing her, because all I could see was what was available through the round hole in the table where my face was planted.

I thought the second paragraph there was unneccassary and a bit awkward.

A couple of typo / spelling / grammatical errors.

"Ah, but it shouldn’t have to," he chided me. "You should stretch more and perhaps practice Yoga."

he = she

"Thank you," I whispered back. I was in a state somewhere between erotic exhaustion and shock at what I had just done. Never before had I masturbated in front of someone and never--I mean never--had I experienced such emotional release as the result of orgasm. It was as if I dam had loosed inside me, flooding me with a sense of completeness.

as it I dam = as if a dam?
loosed = loosened?

Again, take my useless feedback or leave it. I did find the story interesting, but it didn't do much for me on an erotic level. Then again, I may very well not be your audience. If it works for you, to heck with everyone else! Thanks for sharing it with us.


----

EDITED after reading Dr. M's comments:

It seems that Dr. M and I agreed about wanting to see more of Ildiko's reactions, and the thought processes of the narrator as he was masturbating. In my limited experience as a writer, writing sex is easy. It just flows out of me, and kind of progresses of its own accord (that doesn't mean my drivel is any good, mind you!). The REALLY hard part is infusing that sex with a sense of meaning to the characters. Yet this is probably every bit, if not more important than the actions they are engaging in when it comes to turning your readers on.

How do they react? What is it about the specific act that they are engaging in that makes their breath hiss unsteadily through their teeth, or their eyes widen imperceptably? What is it about their personalities that makes what they are doing more than just a simple series of physical gestures and exertions? I find this to be the most difficult and at the same time, the most rewarding thing to write. My first drafts are action, and plot. The characters at that point are little more than ghosts. It takes another really fine comb pass through to infuse all that action with some INTERaction before I feel like I have a story that's worth anything.

In many ways, that's what I feel might be lacking in this particular story. Sorry for the rambling. Once again, you're welcome to ignore me.

 

[TechnoSlut]

Some more grammatical things:

In the very first paragraph you write "seemed likely as not to three days of boredom" which you must mean to read "seemed likely as not to be three days of boredom."

The Grand Hotel is its name, so capitalize it.

Now, as a Canadian and a proud Torontonian I get little miffed at you describing Toronto as "not-Ameriucan". OF COURSE it's not American. We are not America. Thus it's a redundant description.

If they're speaking in Hungarian, ostensibly her native tongue, her speech should be written as perfect English, not "Different of my clients feel differently." If she was speaking awkward Hungarian, then it could be translated into awkward English, and if she was speaking English as a second language it would make sense, but it doesn't here.

As for the actual story though: I quite liked it. Far too many of the stories I read on here have little or no use for grammar and sentence strucutre, but you have a nice grasp, and, as has been mentioned, the character of the protagonist is strong. Characterization is another thing that is too often lost in the drive to write sex sex sex, nothing but sex. In my mind, the glory of Erotica over porn is that is does allow for real characters, for layers and levels that you don't get in Hi-I'm-Here-To-Fix-Your-Plumbing-Porn.

On that note, I don't think it started off to slowly at all. I like a nice set up, I think context is hot.

I did also wonder more about Ildiko herself though. I wouldn't want to put any of her thought processes in, or give personal information about her, she's much more interesting as a mystery; however, with enigmatic characters it's best to describe them a lot, that are they doing with their hands, with their feet, how does the hair move when they turn their head, etc. This just helps keep interest up in a character we're not actually getting to know.

Hope this helps! (and hope you all read mine!)

 

[Black Tulip]

Dr.Lust,

I'll give you my comments first. Afterwards I'll have a look at what the others have written.

First of all, I liked your story but I think you needed a bit too much time to build up for my taste.

I have two instances where I think you are not consistent.

The first one is about a male or female masseur.

I noted that at 7:00 p.m. the opening was with a woman named Ildiko, so I asked for that appointment.

This suggests the "I" wants a woman. But further down the story you wrote

Often I find that female masseuses are not strong enough,

The second is about Ildiko having an accent.

When she greeted me her accent betrayed her as a recent immigrant

How recent is revealed a bit later

She had emigrated in 1994 and so had been in Toronto almost 10 years.

I'm not sure what you would call recent, but in learning a new language 10 years is long enough to have only a slight accent left and maybe an odd turn of phrase every now and then.

So much for the nitpicking, apart from an occasional typo.

The story is nice but I miss reactions from the female in the story. If she is interested enough to watch him masturbate, there must be something in him that attracts her. He drops his robe and reveals .... what? Give me something the fantasize, please.
And when he is on the table masturbating you say he watches her face. What is he seeing then? You never say. Is that on purpose?

I think this is more of a guy story. The technical description of how he treats his cock is at least not working for me as erotic material, but it's good reading and it is certainly a surprise that you don't let them end in a predictable fuck.



Edited:
after reading the rest of the comments, it seems I'm not alone in missing more information on Ildiko. I agree with Technoslut, not telling us what she thinks. I think you did a great job with sticking to one person! But what is her face or her body language telling him.

 

[Lying Eyes]

Intresting story, a different story then what I expected so you get points for that.

Also you get bonus points from me for mentioning a Canadian city. For an erotic story I'm expecting Paris, Rio, Vegas not Toronto. Though if you wanted to impress Canadian readers then be more specific with some details of Toronto. Places tourists usualy go like AGO, ROM, Casa Loma, different ethnic nighbourhoods etc.

Can't say I found this story arousing, a guy masturbating doesn't do anything for me. I say this story is probably best suited for bisexual male readers.

The main character is intresting and I would have liked him seem even more stuffy, intelectual, snobby then he was. The clash of who he is and what he was doing would seem even more out of character and make this situation he found himself in more intriging. Also I think you should of done more to play up the fact that he knows he is beginning to have an erection and can't stop it. Work with the tension of him being anoyed and embarased that his body is acting this way despite that he is a proper upstanding educated man.

I'm with everyone else in saying what is she doing? This is a huge disapointent to me:

...no change of expression visible. Her eyes so dark I couldn't read them.

Booo!!!

I know the character wants to stay profesional but I would of written much more to show she was enjoying watching this. Her eyebrows raised, leans forward, her breathing picks up, maybe her hands plays with her waistband that is showing out of her sweatpants, gasps when he is finished. Maybe even have her talk to him in a profesional manner as he is masturbating telling him to "massage the tension out of his muscle", "rub the tightness out", "release the pressure" etc. I really wish you have done something more with her in this story.

...I mean I never - had experienced such emotional release as a result of orgasm.

I don't buy any of this. More should of been done to show what is going through his head to make this act seem special to him.

While some of my comments might seem negative I do think this is a fine story and glad you made it different then the norm for stories involving a maseuse.

 

[drlust]

Hi all:

Thanks so much to everyone for their thoughtful replies. This is all really helpful. In particular, they explain why this story hovers in the 4.4 rating area, rather than in the higher zones some of my other stories have reached.

It seems that there is some general agreement about the story, so instead of responding to each person individually, I thought I would respond to those comments that had some agreement.

1. The narrator sounding academic/pedantic. This was intentional on my part, because I was trying to write as academics speak and talk. How do I know? I am one myself and I have to listen to them (and myself) day after day after day. So, it was easy to fall into that character--I'm surrounded by them! I wanted him to be as full of himself as many of my colleague are and to have the somewhat removed attitude about others that I see so often among my colleagues--ironic among those whose chosen career is teaching, no? So, I guess, I succeeded in creating the authentic voice I was after. The downside, of course, is that many of you found him off-putting.

2. Everyone seemed agreed that they wanted to know more about Ildiko and her reactions to what was happening on the table. When I wrote this story the first time, I wrote it with both characters fully developed. As you saw, I removed her almost entirely as a character. Why? What I was after in the story was his need to expose himself to another person--but in a way that made the person irrelevant. This act was all about him and, in the end, it would not have mattered if the other person had been male, female, young, old. He just wanted to do what he did in front of an audience. That's what I was after, anyway. I do still have Part II written (in which she becomes a real person, not just an object), so maybe I'll stick with it as written...

3. One person raised the objection about the ethics of the massage professional. I well know that I wrote something that would be very unlikely to happen--but this was fantasy after all. So many people (ok, I know men who feel this way) fantasize about sex with their massage therapist, that I thought I would edge close to that, without going all the way. I'd be interested to know if this bothered others?

4. Oh Canada! I wrote the "not-American" sentence specifically to communicate the typical American attitude about Canada. My wife and I have spent many, many happy months in Canada over the years and cringe at what our friends say about our northern neighbor. I guess I'm glad it got a rise out of someone, because it was meant to.

5. I appreciate all the nitpicks to, but they don't need responding to...just a sign that I need to proofread even more carefully.

Thank you all!

Allan (aka drlust)

 

[MLyons]

drlust said:

3. One person raised the objection about the ethics of the massage professional. I well know that I wrote something that would be very unlikely to happen--but this was fantasy after all. So many people (ok, I know men who feel this way) fantasize about sex with their massage therapist, that I thought I would edge close to that, without going all the way. I'd be interested to know if this bothered others?

Wait! No no, please don't misunderstand me. I was not objecting to your story on this basis in the slightest. I was only expressing a personal bias that might have colored my opinion of it. In no way did I mean to imply that it was an invalid or unrealistic story idea. It's a perfectly valid, and well used fantasy, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Lord knows I'm one to talk about questionably ethical fantasies! Anyway, no, I just wanted to make sure you knew that it was a personal reaction that I wanted you to take into account when reading my comments, not a criticism of the story per se.

 

[Black Tulip]

Hi all:

What I was after in the story was his need to expose himself to another person--but in a way that made the person irrelevant. This act was all about him and, in the end, it would not have mattered if the other person had been male, female, young, old. He just wanted to do what he did in front of an audience. That's what I was after, anyway. I do still have Part II written (in which she becomes a real person, not just an object), so maybe I'll stick with it as written...
Allan (aka drlust)

In reaction to what you said above. If you want to focus on him exposing himself, I would certainly need something more about what her eyes are doing to him. Show his excitement mounting because he is watched.

What you wrote just now, makes me think he wants to depersonalize Ildiko. That is certainly very possible, but if you do that, I find it hard to go with a part two where she invites him over for more. He would not be interested because he couldn't care less who watched him in such a scenario.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[drlust]

Replies to MLyons and BT

Hi again:

Sorry MLyons...I used a poor choice of words when I said "object". I understood why it didn't work for you...and that you weren't objecting.

BT, you raise a really important question. On the one hand, he was depersonalizing her somewhat, but on the other, it was her who caused his arousal in the first place and his awareness that she was watching--even encouraging him--made the experience what it was for him.

At the risk of getting shot down, I'll preview the second part of the story to see if this makes sense:

He goes to her apartment for a second massage. Before the massage begins, she explains why it was that she was willing to allow him to masturbate in front of her the way she did. It's because she also is an exhibitionist and she recognized his need. She proposes that they expose themselves to one another in the same way--she'll give him a massage, allow him to repeat his performance of the earlier evening. And in exchange, he will watch while she gives him a similar performance. An important part of the whole experience is that she lives in a high rise apartment and they both "perform" with the blinds open. The nearest potential watchers are about a quarter mile away in another building...but she assures him that some in that building have telescopes and she knows for a fact that they watch her. For him, knowing that he's performing for more than just her adds to the exhibitionist moment...and for her, knowing that she's performing for him, as well as those who have watched her before is also a bonus.

That's the longer story in a boring nutshell...at least as it stands today.

Allan

 

[Black Tulip]

Ok, I see what you're getting at.

The second part can work really well, but.... Hehehe.

You have to give her more impact in part one. I can understand him trying to keep her at a distance, even more so if you make him a bit more stuffy, but something about her turns him on. You have to convey that to your readers. He may not want it to happen, but it does. Otherwise it would make no sense.



Edited:
Maybe he gets turned on because she will see what her proximity does to him while he is on his stomach, getting an erection? He should not be embarrassed then, but excited, maybe secretly.

 

[A7inchPhildo]

drlust,
I have read the other posts and I will try to not beat a dead horse. However, don't take offense the review is an opinion and is directed toward the story not the author. I can plainly see you have several little "H"s so you are not doing so bad in your efforts to write good stories. Anyone who posts their story here obviously is looking to better their writing skills, I admire that.


Blah blah blah 8 paragraphs in the begining to get to the point!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


quote:
I noted that at 7:00 p.m. the opening was with a woman named Ildiko, so I asked for that appointment.

You may not recognize the name as female, but as a specialist in things Hungarian, I knew that only Hungarian parents name their daughters Ildiko.
--------------
Nothing like stating the facts to prove the obvious, over and over! If Ildiko was male this would have been in the gay category. The reader was fully expecting the massuse to be female.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Ok now I am not quite half way through the story, and I have read how she is Hungarian a dozen times or more.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


quote:
“Different of my clients feel differently about nudity, Mark, so whatever you are comfortable with is fine for me,” she continued.
-----------
I can imagine you are trying to give the feel of her broken english but it is annoying. Such a slight broken instance almost plays as you didn't know how to write "Several of my clients feel differently about nudity..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


quote:
“I stopped worrying about that a long time ago,” I replied, dropping my robe to the floor and climbing onto the table, fully naked. She draped a blanket over my lower body, turned on some kind of atmospheric music that was just loud enough to muffle most of the sounds from the gym just beyond the door and lit a scented candle.

All this I deduced from hearing her, because all I could see was what was available through the round hole in the table where my face was planted.
------------
I noticed several areas of combined paragraph dual character action, I am only going to pick this set to show you what I mean.
OK first off split the top paragraph from him doing and her doing. After "fully naked" The story shifts to another person's actions so split it up.
The second paragraph belongs before the new split. Something like:

“I stopped worrying about that a long time ago.” I replied, while dropping my robe to the floor, and climbing onto the table fully naked. Here I was naked face down, and all I could see was what was available through the round hole in the table where my face was planted. I felt a blanket touch me as she drapped it over my lower body.

Ildiko turned on some kind of atmospheric music that was just loud enough to muffle most of the sounds from the gym just beyond the door, and lit a scented candle. This I deduced from my hearing, and smell alone.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The actual massage description is a bit long, [yawning] with little arousing features to it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The masturbation is arousing but, but it is less than 1/8 the length of the opening of the story. What a let down! No guy can ejaculate that fast.

Even harder if you are reading about a 15 second stroke to cum that fast. Big negative points the climax was over before it began.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The ending was better than most stories, and I don't mean that because the story was over either.

You don't need actual fucking in an erotic story to make it erotic. The theme is very erotic given the nature of the exhibition and the voyeur. The big lack in this story is the long begining to nothing but a paragraph or two of actual happenings. The small area you did write about the stroke was very gripping, I was really into the moment. Poof it was done.

Suppose you might have placed a few mini climaxes into the tale to highten the actual climax. The ejaculation scene would have played off as enough content. Sorry but there was just not enough stimulation building up until the point she tells him to jack it off.

The theme of the story is a 4 all day long. The stroke is a 1 for length,4 for quality, and the reality is a 4.5. However the boring begining along with overstating the facts she is Hungarian really is brutal. If I was to pick this story off the list and it was not here. I honestly would not have finished reading it, and that is a shame it is a hot little story, with a great ending.

Maybe I am in a pissy mood (not likely) but 4.4 seems high for this story. Especially when you are quite capable of improving in several areas. If you were a novice I would tell you great story keep up the good work, but this is not your first story.

Ah go a head, every one hates the Phildo it is ok laytex just bounces back into shape!

 

[TechnoSlut]

4. Oh Canada! I wrote the "not-American" sentence specifically to communicate the typical American attitude about Canada. My wife and I have spent many, many happy months in Canada over the years and cringe at what our friends say about our northern neighbor. I guess I'm glad it got a rise out of someone, because it was meant to.


Allan (aka drlust)

I'm not sure in today's political climate what purpose or benefit there can be in antagonizing us neighbours to the north... but as long as it was purposeful at least it's not ignorant.

 

[psychocatblah]

OK, I cheated and read the other comments because I didn't want to make all of the same ones.

One thing that I noted that the others did as well... what is the significance of her being Hungarian? Did he need to perform just for anyone, or did it need to be a Hungarian because he had early 90s experience with them? Or just to show us his arcane speciality? Because if that's what it is, I'd drop a lot of it.

And even if you don't want to get into the Hungarian's reactions so much, some sexiness about feeling her eyes on him, maybe even some sort of sub fantasy about her going home and plunging her fingers down under her little red panties, or something of that ilk.

Just to draw it out a bit is all I'm thinking. And I dunno... I'd almost let it stand as it is. Or have him toss the note... like this random exhibition is as good as that relationship is going to get. But I suppose a guy getting propositioned like that and not folllowing up isn't terribly realistic, is it?



I wonder if she's going to charge him for this next session.

Anyways, overall I did like it with some of the same complaints above about not enough of the sexy and some odd inconsistencies and the Hungarian thing. I rather like the build up to it, I wouldn't cut it, personally.

 

[drlust]

Thanks for picking up this almost dormant discusssion. I appreciate your comment about the Hungarian identity of the therapist. I put that in because it was an intersection between his life/specialty and hers and gave him a way to connect to her over and above the therapist/client relationship. Given the reactions of everyone in the group, I think I'll end up cutting it in the end...I took a flyer on it and it didn't work...but then, that's why we post our stories here--to get feedback on new ideas we want to try out.

I hadn't considered the possibility of him throwing away the note! It might be unrealistic to expect a man to do so, but, the more I think about this idea, the more it grows on me...Of course, that would mean junking part 2 of the story, which is mostly written...

The story line in part 2 is that he goes to her apartment, she explains that the reason she asked him to come is that she could see how exhibiting himself affected him and that she is sympathetic, because she is also an exhibitionist. She lets him know that she will give him another massage, as before, and that he can engage in the same behavior as before and that she will enjoy watching again....and yes, he has to pay...and then, she expects that he will watch her as she does the same for him--puts on a show, that is.

To add some additional interest, she lives in a high rise apartment and they do this with the window blinds wide open. She tells him that she knows that at least three people in the building that is a quarter mile away use telescopes to watch her from time to time, so he won't be exposing himself just to her--but to a potentially larger audience.

What do you think?

Allan

 

[psychocatblah]

After a night's sleep on it and thinking back on it now... it seems like his erection was caused more by her massaging him so close to his scrotum more than his wanting to be seen. The only part of him that seemed like he didn't mind exhibiting himself before that was when he dropped the robe. So maybe a bit more there about how free he felt, and maybe if her eyes on him then made him more aroused?

What might be interesting is to keep chapter 2 but drop the massage therapist out of it, make the story more about him and his new adventures in exhibitionism that was awoken by this random woman. Each chapter could be written with a new level of exhibitionism. Or you could keep the therapist and they could keep challenging each other and pushing each other to do things that are more and more outrageous.

It's a small point, really, as to whether she could magically see that he was an exhibitionist deep down. It's just something that in reading I'd think, "Hm. I just thought he was comfortable with his body, not that he was particularly 'hey baby, look at me' about it." But it wouldn't stop me