Grassroots Discussion: Black Tulip

[Pure]

Black Tulip

She said,

"The story I would like to be taken apart was written in reply to a challenge and is called A Memorable Lesson.



http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=135485


"See The Challenge Club in the AH if you want to know more.

"I found it 'challenging' to write about more than two people. Is that the problem here? Too much or not enough attention to the different characters/spectators?

"I'm interested to hear how I can improve my writing, just don't kill me completely."

 

[Sunnie]

Yay

I left you a public Comment Tulip! You really did do well!

 

[Pure]

Hi Black T.

Perhaps you will help us with stating the challenge since that thread has hundreds of postings.

Some comments:

Much of the writing is smooth, and the sex is graphic, probably appealing to those who like 'distance' or detachment. Its 'lesson' premise is worked out reasonably well.

I feel the story is unsure of itself, one evidence being the shifts of tone (see example at the end): It has a bit the feel of a formula, like in a porn movie, where each scene is laid out ahead of time, then just shot, boom, boom--in this case, written out.

It has, for instance, comedic elements, but isn't quite a comedy. It also has the feel of a 'send up' (spoof).

A Kama Sutra theme and plot are certainly viable, and you're to be commended for attempting the integration, if that was meant seriously.

I wonder how pornographic it was intended to be? On the one hand it looks like that, in that character and plot are sacrificed to action. On the other hand, I'm unsure how much you wanted to involve the reader in the action (draw him/her in)? My impression generally is 'not very much.'

There is detached porn, like "Candy" by Terry Southern, or Burroughs "Naked Lunch." It's an art form that's not seen much around here. I'm unsure how to characterize it, or if you were attempting it. "Candy" has a fresh, off-the-wall (zany), and 'over the top' (bizarrely improbable to the point of amusment) feel; you're more controlled.

(If you want suggestions to improve in this detached, comedic genre: let yourself loose, make it zany; exaggerate like hell. Throw in the family chauffeur, and a mynah bird. "Candy" at one point has the Mexican gardener enter, and fuck. Find an editor who likes spare prose. I have put an example at the end of this posting.)

I think you have proven you can do a certain kind of written exercize or challenge, though its precise nature remains unclear and perhaps irrelevant.

Best,
J.
----
Example:

BlackT : His eyes held hers as he lifted her legs and spread them even more, bringing the tip of his cock in contact with her. As he entered her body he felt like drowning in her being. Her eyes and her body welcomed him both, open and vulnerable to his touch, so he even forgot he was teaching. Sliding inside her felt like coming home, her flesh sucking him in, caressing him with her inner muscles. He supported her with one arm behind her back, leaving the other free to roam her body as it was draped on the couch in front of him.
---

Comment: Here you're gettin' all mushy 'n romantic. Not at all like the earlier parts.

Solely my weird imagination, my two cents, but I'd say:

[Added, 4-28, for further emphasis: the following is pure's re-write of the passage, with some zaniness and humor:]
[start]

Looking into her doe-like eyes, he lifted her comely legs and spread them. "I'm going to insert the Stallion Shaft into your Chamber of Delight," he said, shoving his cock into the streaming slit. Once inside her, he yelled "I'm drowning" and before he could add "in the Sea of Delight" the boys were trying to pull him to safety. "I don't need your rescue!" he shouted.

"You're not like my Teacher, any more," said Fay, pouty, then surprised and delighted. "But you do hasten my enlightenment. ... And I'll help your soul's journey in return, suck you into me, to the highest level of my sweet puss." She continued slamming her cute little pelvix towards his.

"The doe becomes a tiger," observed the boys, who were now furiously jacking each other.

Payne supported himself on one arm and let the other roam her fantastic peaks and chasms, and settled in the crack of her ass.
"Don't forget the Onyx Orifice, boys," he cried, shoving his middle finger into the tight little anus, bringing the most delightful tiny yelps from her lips.

[end]

 

[Black Tulip]

Sorry about the challenge, I hadn't realised how much posts there were.

The challenge was this:
3,000 words
should include five different characters
a citation from the kama sutra
there should be no BDSM (because we seem to be including it a lot )

the following items:
a songbird
a silk ribbon
hemp rope
(I was going to add a garden swing, but that would be just too obvious)

and just to add more trouble to the story:
falling in love


I picked the following citations to use:
Part seven: picking up men or women, CHAPTER III EXAMINATION OF THE STATE OF A WOMAN'S MIND

When a man makes up to a woman, and she reproaches him with harsh words, she should be abandoned at once.

When a woman reproaches a man, but at the same time acts
affectionately towards him, she should be made love to in every way.


Pure,

That was funny. At least it made me laugh, but that was not my intention when writing the thing.

I did want it to be a story to tickle the reader's fantasy. Stimulate the mind, as that's where most of the sex stems from anyway.


Sunny,

Could you be more specific? It's nice to know you liked it, but that is not going to make my writing better.

 

[Sunnie]

Hey Tulip --

I'm assuming you mean you want me to elaborate on my issue with the dialogue...do I understand you correctly? Overall, I'm not gonna lie to ya, it was a good story, but I agree with Pure's take on it being 'detached' (AWESOME Naked Lunch reference too, by the way, Pure).

I am just now getting ready for work, so I will definitely get you specific examples of what I mean by tonight, love.

~*~Sunnie~*~

 

[Black Tulip]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

I tried to educate myself but I failed miserably. I had no clue what the reference to Naked Lunch meant so I did a search and found the text.

It gave me a headache and the conviction I definitely do not know enough English words to understand that. It is so full of slang, I honestly can't follow the thoughts in it.



By detached, do you mean as from an outsider? No emotional connection?



Sunnie: yes.

 

[Sunnie]

lol, Tulip, if you couldn't understand Naked Lunch, it probably has more to do with the fact that Bill Burroughs was a brain-fried heroin addict than anything else... lol Don't feel bad.

Oops, I'm on the board at work!! I better go............

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

BT,

First of all, as someone who is a total illiterate in all the languages of the earth, save English (and the jury is still out on that one) I confess to being in awe of someone who writes fiction in a "foreign" language. On another site I work with a guy from the middle east. For him, English is a fourth language.

You did a lot of “head hopping” in the story. It seemed relatively smooth and doing that isn’t a violation of some sacred writing law, but most of the time it’s a good idea to keep it to a minimum. That reduces the chances of confusing readers. Romance writers will sometimes “head-hop” during a “high-passion” scene but not over an entire chapter or story.

I thought the sex built up nicely but mentioning the three guys so often became distracting and sometimes broke the mood. Of course they do play a significant role in the story. Which reminds me, the ending felt a little flat. Possibly because the story begins with the boys, but ends with the teacher. An old writing trick is to have the end somehow refer back to the beginning.

Below are some usage and style issues you might want to consider. With any luck my comments (IN CAPS) will be self-explanatory. With a lot of luck, one or two may actually be of some help. Again, congratulations on a good story.

Rumple Foreskin

--

He looked around but could not see Master Payne anywhere, so he assumed the teacher was late.(IMHO, THAT FIRST SENTENCE IS ONE OF THOSE CASES WHERE ENGLISH USAGE TRIPPED YOU UP. IN A SITUATION SUCH AS THIS, IF THE TEACHER’S NOT THERE, THEN HE/SHE MUST EITHER BE LATE OR POSSIBLY NOT COMING AT ALL.) He licked his lips a bit nervously and decided to take(PUT) some of the teachings to the test. He took a deep breath and looked to his friends. (THREE STRAIGHT SENTENCES BEGINNING WITH “HE”)

--

He buried both hands in the mass of her hair and bent her head back, presenting him with her throat. He kissed his way down, licked the hollow at the base and continued down her cleavage. He touched his nose to her nipples, rubbing them through the pink silk, moving the material over the sensitive peaks with his tongue. He kept teasing her till she started moaning. He took that as his clue(CUE) to pull at the ribbon that closed her dress below her breasts. (FIVE STRAIGHT SENTENCES BEGINNING WITH “HE” -- note: DOING THAT ISN’T “WRONG” BUT IT’S REPETITIOUS AND CAN DISTRACT READERS FROM THE STORY, WHICH IS, OF COURSE, A MOST GRIEVOUS TRANSGRESSION.)

--

The long brown hair fell straight down her back and her brown eyes had a golden sparkle in them. (THIS IS ANOTHER SUBJECTIVE STYLE ISSUE, BUT IT’S USUALLY BEST TO AVOID USING THE SAME ADJECTIVE TWICE IN ONE SENTENCE. IT CAN SOUND REPETITIOUS. IN THIS CASE THE WORD IS “BROWN.” IT WOULD BE EASY TO SUBSTITUTE A SYNONYM FOR THE FIRST ONE, SUCH AS AUBURN OR BRUNETTE.)

--

Fay was almost drowning in the sensations. Master Payne was truly a master; his touch was firing her like no one before him. As he opened her dress she almost opened her legs to him as well. He got rid of the pink silk and sat back, like he was exhibiting his latest masterpiece. For a moment she had forgotten their audience, but the flushed faces of the boys and their obvious erections got to her. She arched her back almost automatically, pushing her breasts forward, wanting them to see how aroused she was. (“ALMOST” IS USED THREE TIMES IN THIS PARAGRAPH. IMHO, ALMOST ALL OF THEM COULD/SHOULD BE OMITTED. )

 

[Sunnie]

Okay, ummm.. *bangs head on desk* Tulip, I have to admit, I really suck at getting words from my head to my fingers (unless it's about sex of course...) I'm going to have to study the story one more time so I can get more specific with you. I'm sorry I'm not much help! lol

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I don’t know what goes on with the challenge club. I guess you were challenged to write a multi-person sex scene or something? That is a challenge. Writing these small crowd scenes is always very tough, at least for me, and I think you pulled it off well, especially once the sex started. Of course, by that time it was a crowd of two with three people watching, but I thought the sex was nice, a good combination of sweetness and heat.

One thing I try to do when I know I’m gong to have a crowd is make the characters as distinct as possible. I couldn’t help but notice that four out five of your characters had short, monosyllabic names with a long ‘a’ sound: Fay, Drake, Payne, and Blade. I don’t know if that was intentional or not, but I found it kind of curious and even distracting. I would have liked to see a Jennifer or Sebastian in there, something to break up that monotony. You didn’t have much time to make them distinct people, and it wasn't really that crucial to the story, but the 3 students were pretty much cast in the role of spear-holders anyhow. They could have been anyone.

I had moments of irritation at the start, and I think it comes from your habit of jumping from one character’s head to another in your story, telling first what this one was thinking, and then what Fay was thinking, and then what Payne was thinking. This is called head-jumping, and it can be very disorienting. Since you’re writing in third person, there’s nothing to prevent you from doing this, but the fact is that stories are easier to follow when you settle on one character as your lead and tell the story from their point of view. First I thought the story was about Payne, then Drake, then Fay, then Payne and Fay, and then all of them. I don’t know. Maybe this is what you were trying to do, but I found it confusing.

I also thought there was an awful lot of telling in this story. Things like:

It was clear to him she enjoyed having viewers and he started telling the boys how enticing her body was. Describing to them how she felt to his touch, how she smelled and how she tasted. His words spurred her on and she took off his tunic, exploring his broad shoulders and chest with her hands. She slid off the couch and bent over him.

Not to let us hear what it is he’s telling the boys is a cheat. How did she feel to his touch? How did she taste? That’s something we really want to know. I mean, that’s the whole point of watching a love-master at work, isn’t it?

There were a lot of these things where you glossed over something that seemed important and worth telling to me, and that took a lot of the fire and immediacy out of the story. In fact, I thought there was too much of what everyone was thinking. I’d rather see what they’re doing, and figure out what they must be thinking and feeling from their actions. It makes the story more vivid and direct.

But I think it was a very good story. I assume it’s part of a longer work, something wherein the whole business of this school or academy is explained? Even so, it stands well on its own.

---dr.M.

Added after reading the other comments:

I see that Rumple also got you on the head-hopping, so I wasn't the only one to notice it.

Somehow I missed that dialogue that Pure cited. I don't know how, because when I saw it in Pure's review it kind of made my eyes bug out. I asume you were being facetious. Otherwise it's way too over the top.

Also, I think Pure picked up on that sense of fuzziness or vagueness that permeates the story that I called a lack of fire and immediacy. That's what happens in a story when you stay indside the character's heads too much and do more telling than showing. It becomes a story about what they thought rather than a story about what happened. It's always better when you can find things for your characters to do that express their internal mood rather than just coming out and telling the reader.

Now that I see the challenge you were trying to write up to, I can see where some of this weirdness comes from. It just reinforces my dislike for these kinds of exercises. I really don't like these "write a story invoved a fish, an opera, and a rubber glove" type things, and I really don't see what good can come of them. At best you end up with a curiosity, like a sculpture made out of toenails or something, and at the worst you end up with something that's more like a solution to a puzzle than it is a piece of fiction. Why not just try and write the best story you can and leave all these gimmicks alone?

Anyhow, that's my take on them. I'm aware that some people like this kind of "challenge" though (as if writing a good story weren't already challenge enough), so I guess I should just keep my nose out.

Still, I wonder how good it might have been if you'd been free to take it wherever you wanted and not had to worry about a rope, a ribbon, and whatever else it was.

 

[Pure]

dr. m said,

"Somehow I missed that dialogue that Pure cited. "

If it's the one beginning,

//Looking into her doe-like eyes, he lifted her comely legs and spread them. "I'm going to insert the Stallion Shaft into your Chamber of Delight," he said, //

I made it up, and said so. I've now just added a sentence to further clarify. The passage is consonant with the issue, "Is this a piece of humorous porn?" And it reflects my view that the 'fish, opera, rubber glove' type of writing assignment is perhaps best treated in a humorous vein.

J.

 

[Black Tulip]

Ahhh, this is what I was hoping for. Gentlemen, thank you very much.


Rumple,

I confess to being in awe of someone who writes fiction in a "foreign" language

Always nice to hear, but I'm glad it didn't keep you from speaking your mind. LOL

I could have kicked myself for not seeing the repetitive sentences and words. Thanks for pointing them out. I'll have to be even more alert.

As for the head-hopping, I know I tend to do that when I'm stuck. Guess the story was not exactly flowing from my fingers. I will definitely try to minimize.

Doc,

There were a lot of these things where you glossed over something that seemed important and worth telling to me

I never realized I was cheating but I see your point.

As for the names, I have a lot of trouble with picking them because I do not have clear defined connotations with most English names.

Since I asked for your opinion there's no need to keep your nose out. LOL
Writing in answer to a challenge keeps me writing and sometimes it triggers a real story, like my novella. And this one will get at least one chapter added.

Sunnie,

I really would appreciate it if you could point out some examples of what you mean. You're not the only one who has commented on the time confusion.

Phew, I'm still alive and glad I asked for your advice.

 

[Lying Eyes]

Very well written story, I would of never guessed that English was not your first language.

I didnt care for the names. Master Payne?! After I read that I automaticly thought this story had bondage in it (Master Payne/Master Pain).

Grant/Blade/Drake
All sound like last names or names for older men. For teenagers or young adults would prefer something like Jack, Tom, Mike, Tim, Bob. Something casual, simple and common.
Describing to them how she felt to his touch, how she smelled and how she tasted. His words spurred her on ...

dr_mabeuse hit the nail on the head with his comments on these lines. I'm wondering what did he say? This left me hanging big time...

On a personal note, I wish I was warned that it had a bit of an incest theme. Even though he is only watching his sister that still creeps me out. This is one thing that I dislike about literotica, that in many descriptions of stories I am not warned about the direction the story is going to go whether it be a bit of incest, bondage or anything that pushes the boundries. Just a litle hint in the discription would be apreciated.

Sorry if I dont have much to say, like usual I'm out of my league when compared to the very inteligent comments by Pure, Rumple Foreskin and dr_mabeuse.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Hi Lying Eyes,

I'm just glad to know I'm not the only one who gets turned off by incest. I've learned to live with it, since it seems to be the meat and potatoes of Literotica, but, like you, it always creeps me out.

---dr.M.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

On a personal note, I wish I was warned that it had a bit of an incest theme. Even though he is only watching his sister that still creeps me out. Lying Eyes

Hi Lying Eyes,

I'm just glad to know I'm not the only one who gets turned off by incest. I've learned to live with it, since it seems to be the meat and potatoes of Literotica, but, like you, it always creeps me out.

---dr.M.

Dang it, you two. Here I am all set to post a "workshop" thread on Sunday with the unposted first chapter from my "work-in-progress," a magnus opus INCEST/LESBIAN/GROUP/SLUT/STROKE novella.

In light of you two going public about not caring for incest stories, it should come as no surprise to anyone that this is an incest chapter (college girl back home in small town and so horny she seduces her high school senior brother).

Sometimes it just don't pay to write free porn stories.

But seriously folks, now that I know you two don't like that type of fine literature, I won't be expecting any critique. Oh, and I agree with Lying Eyes, writers are well advised to add a warning on multi-category stories. Readers taken by surprise can give really rotten scores and comments.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Black Tulip]

Very well written story, I would of never guessed that English was not your first language.

I didnt care for the names. Master Payne?! After I read that I automaticly thought this story had bondage in it (Master Payne/Master Pain).

Grant/Blade/Drake
All sound like last names or names for older men. For teenagers or young adults would prefer something like Jack, Tom, Mike, Tim, Bob. Something casual, simple and common.
Describing to them how she felt to his touch, how she smelled and how she tasted. His words spurred her on ...

dr_mabeuse hit the nail on the head with his comments on these lines. I'm wondering what did he say? This left me hanging big time...

On a personal note, I wish I was warned that it had a bit of an incest theme. Even though he is only watching his sister that still creeps me out. This is one thing that I dislike about literotica, that in many descriptions of stories I am not warned about the direction the story is going to go whether it be a bit of incest, bondage or anything that pushes the boundries. Just a litle hint in the discription would be apreciated.

Sorry if I dont have much to say, like usual I'm out of my league when compared to the very inteligent comments by Pure, Rumple Foreskin and dr_mabeuse.

Lying Eyes,

Thank you for your comments. You'll be pleased to know the story will start with a warning when I have resubmitted it.

I'll try to be more specific in the future. My apologies.

Hmm, guess I don't have to look to you or the good dr. for advice on lesson number two.

 

[Omni]

Hi Black Tulip,


I think you were very creative for your challenge. You asked about writing about more than two people at once. First off I like stories where the two main characters are involved. There is nothing wrong with adding more at all, many best selling writers do it with success, however it takes thought to do it well.

Clear definitions of changing heads, etc. I remember my first inclination was first person and what I wanted to sell was all written third person, 2 people POV. Boy, I railed against learning how to write that way. Then, I wanted to switch every other paragraph with each persons thoughts. Sheesh, even when I read it, I had a feeling of jumping around and ending up puffing with exertion to keep up. So, I had to develop ways/tricks to keep in one person's head longer, before the switch over.

Alot of writers writing more than 2 people POV are writing length so it is harder to do in a shorter story. However, I do not think you will see much changing to 3 or 4 minds in one chapter. Most writers will keep it changed to 2 minds in a chapter, and then maybe next chapter 2 different minds. Or start the first of chapter all with one, then switch to two others for bulk and rest of chapter etc.

Being difficult does not mean it cannot be done it just takes alot more thought.

Your story also seemed to waver in setting/theme. I could not decide all the way through it whether this was like some weird present time place or some old world setting. I think you need to pick one and stick with it. That is why your dialog while good at conveyance, felt out of place. The dialog was very nowadays, while this theme was of older world rituals and teachings in a different place than New York City or Sana Monica. ~smiles

I think your writing this skipped between those two very different worlds without picking one or the other.

One other think I noticed, and I do it too, we tend to pick the same physical nuances and gestures for things over and over. Like, licking lips, cock twitches as two I remember repeated.

I too am glad you are going to put the incest disclaimer in there. On my personal taste, if it had been anymore than it was, I probably would not have finished the story.

I especially like the way you were dealing with the two most interesting characters and their attraction, Payne and the girl.

Omni

 

[Black Tulip]

Omni,

Thank you for your advice.

I have been busy revising and tried to stick to Master Payne throughout the whole story. Only in two instances I had to slip into somebody else's head.

Your comment about the time/place has me grumbling. More people have said something about that, but I have not yet figured out how to remedy that.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

BT,

About the time/place problem. Since this is a fantasy, why not make it the present day but in a private (and very progressive) school or community?

If you want to keep the current time/place as is, then drop all jargon or slang and have the character's vocabulary be fairly formal with a few archaic/Shakespearian words/phrases tossed in such as "hark" or maybe "wilt thou." If in doubt, rent a copy of the movie "Shakespeare in Love." and study the dialogue.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Black Tulip]

RF,

I think I want to keep the time, so I'll have to do something about the language.

Not sure I'm up to that, but I'll give it a try.

Thanks



Thou shallt not? That's a bit too much, but bosom for tits should go a long way.

 

[drlust]

Hi:

I read actually read this story when it was first posted and enjoyed it at the time. I've always had a soft spot for fantasies involving watching others have sex, so this one fit well into my own preferences. As you read my comments below, please keep in mind that I just said I liked the story...these are all designed to probe at potential...I emphasize potential...weaknesses.

1. I think there is a bit too much going on in the story for the reader to keep track of it all...there is the teacher, the woman, the boys, the fear of being seen by others in the household (why wasn't anyone more worried about this?). It was hard for me to keep shuttling from one player to the other. I've read plenty of other stories with multiple perspectives...most don't work well either. A few do, however, so I'd suggest finding some that have multiple perspectives that you really like and try to figure out what works in those stories and how it is different from what you've attempted here;

2. Along these same lines, I found myself getting into the teacher's head without difficulty, but Faye was a bit more opaque to me. In the end, she is too underdeveloped here. For one thing, it seems to me that given the fact that incest is a pretty powerful taboo--there would be more conflict in her mind regarding her brother's presence. Either she would have found it hard to deal with, or it would have been the key to her passion. You've portrayed it as just another plot element--no more or less powerful than the others. In that way, the incest overtones come across as a bit gratuitous--either make it real or leave it out and make her the daughter of the cook or gardner or something like that.

3. I have no idea what the boys looked like. I'd like to see them described in some more detail so I can visualize them more readily as they stand there stroking. Was one of them muscular and handsome? Did one of them have a very large cock or a very small one? Didn't Faye or the teacher notice these things?

4. Finally, I missed a sense of resolution at the end. It seemed to me that the story just kind of trailed off. Was Faye or her brother horribly conflicted by what had just happened? Was it now inevitable that they'd be sleeping together? What did the teacher get out of it all besides a good lesson for the boys...it was just a bit too clinical at the end for my taste. I prefer resolution--even if the resolution is chaos--at the end of a story.

Thanks for submitting this one to us for review!

All the best,

Allan

My stories

 

[Black Tulip]

If one of you is curious to know what I did with all the good advice, the revised version is up as of this morning.

Thanks for your time and efforts.

 

[Guest]

I liked this story. It took a second to fall into the slower, more orderly pace, but once I got there, I had no problem. It reads like a school lesson, but that doesn't really bother me considering that's what you were going for.

However, the sex (while very well written, some of the best I've read in terms of descriptive language) seems to labor under the pacing. Generally, as one approaches the climax of a sexual encounter, everything speeds up and a certain tunnel vision takes place as the person about to cum has their attention focused on a single thing. This time, the orgasms came as a surprise to me. Only the teacher's experience was given any real attention, so theothers winked in and out of existence for me. The desired effect of voyeurism was achieved, but I was distracted by the other voyeurs in the room. I'm not sure if this was intended or not, because even your teacher seemed eager to relive the scene, without his students looking on.

But overall, a very arousing story with a slow burn but the surprisingly ordered and regimented orgasms took a lot of bang out of the ending for me.

 

[Black Tulip]

WyldKarde,

Thank you for taking the time to read and comment on my story. It's a pity the edited version is already posted, but thanks for the effort.

 

[Guest]

Ohhh, I didn't realize I was commenting on the unedited version. I re-read it to give comments that are more relevant.

I liked the changes to the pacing. Before, it seemed methodical (which, as I said, was fine by me, the thrust of this story being two students learning a lesson) but now it moves slowly, yet smoothly.

What seemed like confusion before, regarding the students seeming to just stand around as window dressing while the teacher plowed into that day's "lesson", comes across as Drake's discomfort with the unexpected incest. Although having Drake drop out of the scene sexually before everyone else still softens the impact of your ending for me, it makes sense and anything else would come across as hollow.

All in all, this is one of those rare incest stories where the characters have reactions that I can relate to. I'm not a fan of incest, but I like good storytelling and this has it in abundance.