GM Bailout? Feh!

[Selena_Kitt]

Ten years ago GM abandoned the EV1, an electric car that had a very limited release. They claimed there was "not enough consumer interest" to justify its going to production. This was in spite of evidence that 90% of the people who had driven the car wanted to buy theirs. GM said no. They took them all back - and aside from a very few, which went to museums and collectors - they crushed them.

Now, GM is offering The Volt, due to come out in 2010. This vehicle is much less superior to the EV1. It has "worse mileage, longer charge times, still reliant on gas to travel further than 40 miles, and presumably higher maintenance costs."

If GM had been selling the EV1 for the past ten years, would they be asking for a handout right now? I doubt it. They'd probably be leading the pack, especially considering the new administration's push toward green technology.

And why are they going with The Volt instead of using the EV1?

Money. The EV1 has a clean engine - there's very little to do in terms of maintenance. No oil changes. No constant trips to the dealer for engine repair. The Volt, on the other hand, will make GM more cash once the customer walks out the door.

And now they're asking for a handout from the government? If it were me, I'd tell them to stick those crushed EV1s where the sun doesn't shine.

Maddening.

 

[Belegon]

And now they're asking for a handout from the government? If it were me, I'd tell them to stick those crushed EV1s where the sun doesn't shine.

I see it as an opportunity.

There seems to be a lot of focus on making giant leaps on various issues around here right now.

It just doesn't work that way. Baby steps.

What is important is to retool the process to more easily allow the production of more efficient vehicles.

I agree that they are paying the price for their lack of vision. But using this time to get even with them for that mistake?

But before setting out to enact revenge, dig TWO graves.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I see it as an opportunity.

There seems to be a lot of focus on making giant leaps on various issues around here right now.

It just doesn't work that way. Baby steps.

What is important is to retool the process to more easily allow the production of more efficient vehicles.

I agree that they are paying the price for their lack of vision. But using this time to get even with them for that mistake?

But before setting out to enact revenge, dig TWO graves.

But they had the vehicle, and chose not to produce it. It wouldn't have been a giant leap then... they could have released them slowly into the market and by the time gas was $4 a gallon, they would have been raking in the cash.

But no. Too short-sighted to see the benefits, they did the thing they thought was safe, and most importantly, would make them the most money.

They went against the feedback of almost every single person who had driven the EV1, and decided not to make them. They had the opportunity to do the right thing, the visionary thing. They chose not to take it.

Why should we manufacture another opportunity for them now? Because it will "save" the other two auto makers?

Some animals need to go extinct. Natural selection works. I say, let it.

 

[lil_elvis]

Until they address their something like $1500/vehicle cost disadvantage to Toyota, Nissan & Honda, it's just pouring money down a rathole. Anything less than a top to bottom retooling will only lead to more handouts down the road.

 

[rgraham666]

Well, considering how much the economy depends on GM, it would be unwise to let it fail. It isn't just GM that will fail but all the companies that are connected to it.

Right now my province, Ontario, is going through a very hard time. Mostly because a lot of our economy is based on manufacturing and much of that is automobile manufacturing; parts and whole vehicle assembly.

If GM goes, we're in trouble.

As far as lack of imagination goes, that doesn't surprise me. The upper management of all big companies are courtly in nature. This means they are mostly concerned with their own prestige and power. Actually doing things might threaten their prestige and power because if you do things you might fail. So they make sure they are unlikely to fail by doing as little as possible.

Big leaps of faith like the EV1 are not going to make it to market in such an environment. In the minds of the courtiers it's too likely to fail, and so destroy the careers of anyone attached to it.

 

[lil_elvis]

Well, considering how much the economy depends on GM, it would be unwise to let it fail. It isn't just GM that will fail but all the companies that are connected to it.

Right now my province, Ontario, is going through a very hard time. Mostly because a lot of our economy is based on manufacturing and much of that is automobile manufacturing; parts and whole vehicle assembly.

If GM goes, we're in trouble.

As far as lack of imagination goes, that doesn't surprise me. The upper management of all big companies are courtly in nature. This means they are mostly concerned with their own prestige and power. Actually doing things might threaten their prestige and power because if you do things you might fail. So they make sure they are unlikely to fail by doing as little as possible.

Big leaps of faith like the EV1 are not going to make it to market in such an environment. In the minds of the courtiers it's too likely to fail, and so destroy the careers of anyone attached to it.

Which is why I'd place almost even money that the mgt would enter bankruptcy before accepting too many strings on $ from the gov't.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Which is why I'd place almost even money that the mgt would enter bankruptcy before accepting too many strings on $ from the gov't.

You may be right. We'll see, won't we?

I have no doubt a bailout will be offered. It just makes me hopping mad.

(I hate that mad smiley )

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ROB

Read David Halberstam's book THE RECKONING. Detroit has opposed fuel efficient cars since the 60s. Americans demand land-yachts if they have the money to buy the gasoline for them. Plus Detroit makes little money off econo-cars, which pisses off investors. So its a CATCH-22 thing.

The other thing is: I cant name one government agency that buys small vehicles, even my water meter reader drives an SUV. She could make do as well with a small electric car, but the government buys land yachts exclusively.

 

[rgraham666]

Which is why I'd place almost even money that the mgt would enter bankruptcy before accepting too many strings on $ from the gov't.

Of course. They get paid huge amounts of money no matter how they fuck up.

 

[neonlyte]

Give them the money... with strings attached.

Fuck... that won't work. Screw 'em and let them go through the same process the UK car industry did 30 years ago, it collapsed and was re-born under foreign hands. The UK now exports 80% of production... except this year

 

[trysail]

Until they address their something like $1500/vehicle cost disadvantage to Toyota, Nissan & Honda, it's just pouring money down a rathole.

You just hit the nail squarely on the head and..., unlike most folk, I'll bet you know exactly the source of that cost disadvantage and why that cost disadvantage exists.

 

[stephanie_webster]

Here is my issue, management has made so many mistakes. The union clearly does not take any responsibility nor want to change and in fact would rather go on unemployment than offer a concession. So why not let the big 3 fall? After all how many people buy American? The auto industry is unable to compete and will never complete till the union is terminated and the pension plan is converted to a 401k.

Ten years ago GM abandoned the EV1, an electric car that had a very limited release. They claimed there was "not enough consumer interest" to justify its going to production. This was in spite of evidence that 90% of the people who had driven the car wanted to buy theirs. GM said no. They took them all back - and aside from a very few, which went to museums and collectors - they crushed them.

Now, GM is offering The Volt, due to come out in 2010. This vehicle is much less superior to the EV1. It has "worse mileage, longer charge times, still reliant on gas to travel further than 40 miles, and presumably higher maintenance costs."

If GM had been selling the EV1 for the past ten years, would they be asking for a handout right now? I doubt it. They'd probably be leading the pack, especially considering the new administration's push toward green technology.

And why are they going with The Volt instead of using the EV1?

Money. The EV1 has a clean engine - there's very little to do in terms of maintenance. No oil changes. No constant trips to the dealer for engine repair. The Volt, on the other hand, will make GM more cash once the customer walks out the door.

And now they're asking for a handout from the government? If it were me, I'd tell them to stick those crushed EV1s where the sun doesn't shine.

Maddening.

 

[Belegon]

I think that giving them the money with huge strings attached could work as long as the govt. follows through on the string pulling... and I think this administration will on this issue.

If they refuse and enter bankruptcy? Buy up the stock at reduced rates, create a proxy fight and do the same thing that way... (yeah, in my dreams. Never happen.)

But Rob is right. The govt. can not afford a bankrupt GM to add to the economic downturn. The ripple is too great.

 

[R. Richard]

The problem is hostages. GM and Ford employ lots of what you think are people directly and more indirectly, via their suppliers. What you think of as people, politicians see as voters. Politicians will do almost anything to avoid pissing off large numbers of voters.

Thus, GM and Ford have hostages. The hostages give them a very real amount of control over the politicians who want to get re-elected. GM and Ford have control. The politicians have your tax money. BOHICA!

 

[stephanie_webster]

so in the end, nothing will really change at the big 3. they can only make money in an era of the Dot Com days then in times like today the big 3 go on welfare until the union is changed and they do something about the pension the big 3 are doomed

The problem is hostages. GM and Ford employ lots of what you think are people directly and more indirectly, via their suppliers. What you think of as people, politicians see as voters. Politicians will do almost anything to avoid pissing off large numbers of voters.

Thus, GM and Ford have hostages. The hostages give them a very real amount of control over the politicians who want to get re-elected. GM and Ford have control. The politicians have your tax money. BOHICA!

 

[rgraham666]

Snicker. Yeah, GM's problems are entirely because the unions won't let management do what is necessary. After all, management never, ever makes any mistakes. http://bestsmileys.com/lol/2.gif

 

[CanadianCum]

Shareholders and Unions

I don't think the Government should step in until it is known how much the union is willing to buy and how much the shareholders are willing to put up.
This is a capitalist society and if you fuck up in business and spend beyond your means then you sell to the highest bidder. Maybe GM will have to be sold. Do the employees want to buy it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

What's NOT considered is GM OR NO GM, SOMEONE WILL BUILD CARS FOR THE MARKET. If you lose your job at GM you'll get a job building cars for another company.

What I expect will happen is GM will spin-off CADILLAC and CHEVY and GMC for another company to manufacture. Maybe someone else will buy BUICK and PONTIAC.

But the toxic management and union contracts will be history.

CANADIAN

The union contract for GM is over the top in terms of pay and benefits. Retirement benefits from all sources should equal something like median family income for all Americans NOT be better than what younger, active workers make.

 

[stephanie_webster]

both are at fault

Snicker. Yeah, GM's problems are entirely because the unions won't let management do what is necessary. After all, management never, ever makes any mistakes. http://bestsmileys.com/lol/2.gif

 

[jomar]

I think that giving them the money with huge strings attached could work as long as the govt. follows through on the string pulling... and I think this administration will on this issue.

If they refuse and enter bankruptcy? Buy up the stock at reduced rates, create a proxy fight and do the same thing that way... (yeah, in my dreams. Never happen.)

But Rob is right. The govt. can not afford a bankrupt GM to add to the economic downturn. The ripple is too great.

I'm with you guys on this. In better economic times... But the US auto industry accounts for one job out of ten. Hard as it is to swallow the govt needs to loan them some money because the economy can't afford their failure at this point.

 

[BOSTONFICTIONWRITER]

I remember when Ross Perot was one of GM's biggest shareholders and their most vocal critic. Before running for President against Papa Bush, he wanted to be President of GM.

Most of his ideas centered around the fat, out of touch executives. He wanted to cut the white collar management. He wanted to shake things up by eliminating the multi-million dollar bonuses and golden parachutes.

Instead of embracing him and his ideas to restructure a corporate giant that was quickly losing their market share against the foreign invaders of Toyota and Honda, GM bought out his shares for 750 million dollars and told him and his company EDP to take a hike.

I voted for Ross Perot when he ran for President. I even wrote a novel about Ross Perot, the Reluctant Billionaire, posted here at Literotica, which anyone can read for free.

I thought he was the best thing since sliced bread. He told it how it was and didn't hold any punches. Only, his fatal mistake was he showed graphs and charts instead of cartoons. Most of America didn't understand what he was talking about when he foretold everyone and backed it up with statistical information that our manufacturing base was shrinking and all of our jobs were going overseas.

Papa Bush led the laughter and called him crazy. Like father like son, instead of helping to fix the economy, he started a war, the Gulf War, which put America deeper in debt.

GM still would have been the number one car company in America had they listened to Ross Perot, but they didn't. Now look at them with their hand out and their heads down.

I say we stop the bailouts. If they want to bail someone out, let them bailout the middleclass. The middleclass are the ones who can turn the economy around. Give us a chance. Instead of helping every foreigner who takes our money and spits in our face, we need to help our own first.

I'm sick of these giant corporations paying these huge bonuses to a few of their top executives and giving the rest of us the finger. Now, it's time we give them the finger.

 

[DesertPirate]

As I posted on another Bailout thread, I think the stockholders should be allowed to flog the Board of Directors and Officers of the Corporation. A little personal accountability would go a long way towards fixing this economy.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JOMAR & DP

Cadillacs will be built regardless of what happens to GM. Willys-Overland went out of business and American Motors built Jeeps, AMC went out of business, then Chrysler built Jeeps. Maybe if all of them go bankrupt we'll get a car company that builds Cadillacs, Jeeps, Dodge Minivans, Crown Victorias, and Corvettes. Cars people want.

What GM wants is money to keep the doors open til people can afford land yachts again.

 

[trysail]

( with apologies to Mr. Mark Twain and his pen warmed up in hell )
"... but I repeat myself."



"An elephant: A mouse built to government specifications."
-Robert A. Heinlein

"A committee is a life form with six or more legs and no brains."
-Robert A. Heinlein

"If you can think of any idea so simple it would be beyond the capacity of the dumbest human being in existence to screw up, you may rely upon the Congress of the United States of America to accomplish it."
-Trysail

 

[BOSTONFICTIONWRITER]

JOMAR & DP

Cadillacs will be built regardless of what happens to GM. Willys-Overland went out of business and American Motors built Jeeps, AMC went out of business, then Chrysler built Jeeps. Maybe if all of them go bankrupt we'll get a car company that builds Cadillacs, Jeeps, Dodge Minivans, Crown Victorias, and Corvettes. Cars people want.

What GM wants is money to keep the doors open til people can afford land yachts again.

I disagree with you about GM holding onto their flagship cars, such as Cadillac and Corvette. They make the bulk of their money with their Chevrolet division.

GM had a good product with their Caprices and Camaros, but they stopped making the body on frame cars, such as Caprice, Pontiac Bonneville, Buick Roadmaster, and Cadillc Fleetwood to make SUV's, mini-vans, and trucks. They made more money making SUVs, Mini-vans, and Trucks because those vehicles don't have to meet the same safety and fuel requirements as do automobiles.

I have no idea why they stopped making the Camaro. They sold enough of them, surely, not as many as the Mustang, by half as much, but they still made money on the car.

Now, they're coming out with a retro-Camaro, like Ford did with the retro-Mustang. Give me new instead of retro.

All these car companies need to stop building 4,000 pound cars. A Mustang Cobra is two tons, a thousand pounds too heavy.

Mini-Cooper sells every car it makes and it doesn't give discounts. Do the math. BMW can't make enough Mini's and, which is why they came out with the new S model, the Clubman, the new JCW model, and now the SUV mini.

GM is a bit behind the times. Moreover, all of these car companies are guilty of making land yachts. Look at the Honda Accord. The Honda Civic is now the same size as the old Honda Accord and the Toyota Camry is now the size of a Chevy Impala.

We need to think small and think efficient.