Global Warming is Bad Science

[Andra_Jenny]

For all of you whose degrees end with an "A" from those of us whose degree ends in an "S."

Global warming is not bad science, it is pop science. To say it is not happening is bad science. We do not know. We do know there are competing theories, there are competing cycles, both short term and long term that are more important than the OZONE HOLE!

In fact, the data for 3/4 of the theory has proven to be erroneous since the assumption was made that there was a direct correspondence between the temperature of sea water and sea air. Well good science, where you develope a theory and run experiments has shown that to be a fallacious assumption. Back to square one.

That's what we do. We have theories. We test those theories and nothing, I repeat nothing, is understood well enough in this complex of a system to claim either for or against Global Warming.

It is good to be concerned about the world. It is good to study the world and to prevent the horrors that we are capable of inflicting upon ourselves. We need to know our place in the sun and how to live there in harmony, but...

YOU GUYS QUIT PRACTICING BAD POP SCIENCE!

 

[OUTSIDER]

you seem to have a bee in your bonnet over this subject, can we at least agree then that reducing pollution is in and of it's self a good thing, I mean if a stupid asshole like me can see that then those of you with degree's must be able to...?

 

[Andra_Jenny]

I hate having to argue in any argument where the original premise is flawed or invalid. It then becomes impossible to refute, so I had to clear the air so that there can be no argument about media bias. They, the global warmimngmongers and the press, are acting pathetically ignorant and they can do it because we, the audience let them unless we start shouting the truth. I did not think I would have too shout and wave about but the Goebells, Jacksons, and Carvilles of the world appearantly can be pretty pursuasive fellows.

 

[OUTSIDER]

I hate having to argue in any argument where the original premise is flawed or invalid. It then becomes impossible to refute, so I had to clear the air so that there can be no argument about media bias. They, the global warmimngmongers and the press, are acting pathetically ignorant and they can do it because we, the audience let them unless we start shouting the truth. I did not think I would have too shout and wave about but the Goebells, Jacksons, and Carvilles of the world appearantly can be pretty pursuasive fellows.

"But" do you agree that reducing pollution is a good thing.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

I agree reducing pollution is a great thing.
Ridding the world of witches, communists, and racists, is a great thing,
BUT WE DO TEND TO GO TO EXTREMES DON'T WE.

 

[OUTSIDER]

Then since we both agree, it's just a matter of making a workable plan, some would throw the baby out with the bath water but those who use their brain realise that it's just a matter of tailoring the plan to fit real life situation's...

 

[Andra_Jenny]

If you are getting at "THE TREATY,"

I say,

I clean my yard.
You clean yours.
Good fences make good neighbors.

If one neighbor will not clean their yard,
Then the other go do it for them.

If not,

Whoopsseedaisey

 

[OUTSIDER]

If you are getting at "THE TREATY,"

I say,

I clean my yard.
You clean yours.
Good fences make good neighbors.

If one neighbor will not clean their yard,
Then the other go do it for them.

If not,

Whoopsseedaisey

the only problem with that analogy is the crap from your yard is blowing over your fence and and making a mess in everybody else's.

As to the treaty it proved that Bush is a wanker of the first order, anybody else would have called a new conferance and said "look guy's we can't make this treay work, we need a rethink" but Bush just said FUCK YOU and god bless the USA, now that not just arragant but dangerous and stupid, this ain't some local problem we're talking about here but a global one and require a global responce.

 

[Starfish]

Ridding the world of witches, communists, and racists, is a great thing,

Please tell me you are using this as a historical reference and not an opinion...At least about the witches part....

 

[MinkSoul]

not to take away from your argument but...

the expanding ozone hole is unrelated to the theory of global warming. the hole Is expanding and we know what is causing it. freon is getting up there and breaking up the O3. we are slowly taking care of that end of the problem. the other half, replenishment of the O3, is out of our hands. as i recall, the O3 comes from thunderstorms around the equator and is swept up into the upper atmosphere, but the ongoing drought in northern Africa is preventing those storms from developing so the production of O3 is down so the hole is'nt getting smaller.... it's getting bigger

 

[Problem Child]

Ridding the world of witches, communists, and racists, is a great thing,

Please tell me you are using this as a historical reference and not an opinion...At least about the witches part....

Witches are bad. I saw the Blair Witch Project and those poor kids were really scared by those bad witches.

Witches are bad.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

What we do not know is if this is a cyclic opening and closing of the hole. We discovered it only recently and we have precious little data to map the cycles. You may claim to know what causes it. That is a theory. You must now perform experiments to prove that theory. There are competing theories, one of which is that deep-water ocean cycles have more to do with weather patterns than any single other phenomonen and these take centuries to occur. But it is still only a theory. Do you get it now?

 

[Dillinger]

Ridding the world of witches, communists, and racists, is a great thing,

Please tell me you are using this as a historical reference and not an opinion...At least about the witches part....

Witches are bad. I saw the Blair Witch Project and those poor kids were really scared by those bad witches.

Witches are bad.

*lol* Watch out for my evil eye, dude...

 

[Dillinger]

I agree reducing pollution is a great thing.
Ridding the world of witches, communists, and racists, is a great thing,
BUT WE DO TEND TO GO TO EXTREMES DON'T WE.

Following up on GR what GR said to Andra_Jenny...

And not to take away from the point of your thread but... how is it you can group witches with communists and racists? Is that just something you typed without giving much thought to what you were saying? Or are you using the word as per the childhood conception of a witch?

Because - historically - if that is what you are implying (and communists and racists tend to make me think you are talking historically, real world... etc...) then you are way the fuck off base.

[Edited by Dillinger on 05-21-2001 at 09:10 AM]

 

[Ally C]

They, the global warmimngmongers and the press, are acting pathetically ignorant and they can do it because we, the audience let them unless we start shouting the truth.

I'd like to think I'm responsible enough to make informed decisions without 'letting' anyone in the media do 'anything'. I'd rather there was some environmental good that came of much publicised 'bad pop science' than a constant stand off while everyone tests out their precious little theories. Actions speak louder than words, to borrow a phrase, and bad pop science speaks a helluva lot louder than hard scientific theories by your argument. Let them be heard I say, and let some action be taken.

One final question: is 'bad pop' related to 'bad rap' and the alleged effects which this has on society?

 

[OUTSIDER]

What we do not know is if this is a cyclic opening and closing of the hole. We discovered it only recently and we have precious little data to map the cycles. You may claim to know what causes it. That is a theory. You must now perform experiments to prove that theory. There are competing theories, one of which is that deep-water ocean cycles have more to do with weather patterns than any single other phenomonen and these take centuries to occur. But it is still only a theory. Do you get it now?

hold on a minute, what make's "your" science any more believeable than someone else's...?...I think you need to see that although the media tend's to dumb down science to make it easier for the man in the street to understand, it does not mean it's wrong.

Remember one man's lie is another's truth, also as I've said on this thread before reducing pollution is a good thing however you look at it.

 

[Thumper]

Just the facts Ma'am

Fact: The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and in this time the cycles have establisehed a rough balance of gases in which most of the flora and fauna have developed.

Fact: Carbon Dioxide is a greenhouse gas along with Nitrous Oxide and Methane. The concentrations of such gases are increasing. CO2 is up 30% over preindustrial levelss. CH4 is up by 120%+ and NO is 35% higher. In a normal cycle the earth releases and absorbs around 200 billion metric tons of carbon annually. Man-made CO2(emissions from autos, trucks, buses, power plants and such) adds 7 billion metric tons to this cycle every year. That is a 3-4% increase. Enough to throw the cycle off.

Fact: The rain forests are being stripped at a record pace. This is our primary "carbon sink". It is what removes the CO2 from the atmosphere. Couple that with the excess CO2 we are putting out and the increase will only quicken.

We don't know at what level it will start severely affecting the climate, but considering that we can't exactly do anything about it don't ya think that it is better to walk on the side of caution?

The attitude of those who dismiss this is like the smoker who is warned that cigarettes will lead to lung cancer..."I'll believe it when I can't breathe then I'll stop"

By then it is too late.

BTW... Relativity is still just a theory...ask the residents of Hiroshima or Nagasaki if they believe it.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

Because I am not stating adamately that that theory is truth. Truth is when I can fully describe something using the language of science,

MATHEMATICS,

and we cannot yet do that for or against global warming. I poked a hole in one theory, offered just as acceptable a theory and you or noone else can call either one truth because you or no one else can describe the mathematical model for our climate.

SIMPLE.

EASY MONEY.

WHOSE NEXT?

(witches, communists, rascists were and are all victims of societal hunts duh! Just like the hunt for all those evil doers who are destryoing the Ozone Layer, but whoa, what if that's a false premise? SHOW ME THE MATH!)

 

[Ally C]

Why the need to come up with a mathematical formula to ultimately prove (or disprove) this or that? Or is that the whole point of your thread: that we can't say anything with any authority, unless it has been mathematically deduced to the last detail? If that's all you're saying then such a position will never have any meaningful impact on real time environmental issues. It might help push up the value of shares in calculator companies though ...

 

[lavender]

Since this thread keeps popping up

 

[Ally C]

lavender

Thanks for taking the time to provide a detailed post which articulates my position a lot better than I can. We really don't have to wait for 'scientific proof' to inform our every decision. The cigarette example is very relevant. Everyone knows smoking is bad for health. Having to offer proof of this via science for the sake of regulation is a waste of time and resources. Science is necessary of course, but not as a bureaucratical tool [read 'magic wand'] to wield in place of responsible action based on common sense.

 

[lavender]

 

[Ally C]

By C&P I take it you mean 'cut & paste' and not 'calculate and project'?

 

[Flagg]

Chaos theory (which is applied to such complex and apparently random processes such as the weather) cannot by definition be mapped out scientifically.

So as much as AJ asks "FOR THE MATHS!" she isn't ever going to get it.

It might be a little more useful to lobby the Texas Butcher into being somewhat less of an irresponsible child as opposed to lobbying people against using their common sense.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

Yes it can. It is what we do know to project weather, but we have to make many gross assumptions and simplifications. Just as more study refines and lessons the assumptions and simplifications, so we get closer to the "chaotic equation." The part we cannot know is, however what was the inittial equation.

In health matters, DNA, RNA, etc. these things are the equations and we begin to understand, again, making simplifications and assumptions. The body is a "stable" chaotic system, so to speak, on that beautiful part of the Madlebrot set where everything does not simply go screaming out of control off,

OFF TO INFINITY!