Getting Along

[NOIRTRASH]

35 years ago life forced me to work with a sworn enemy. He fired me many times, often minutes after I walked in the door wherever he happened to be the honcho. But on this occasion he couldn't fire me because he was my partner not my boss.

Neither of us was happy about it. Jim and me were as different as can be when it came to work. I did it right, he did it now. I don't do wham, bam, thank you ma'am.

Anyway Jim decided we'd divide the work, he'd make the stuff and I'd install it.

It didn't work. Jim fucked up everything he made, and I couldn't install shit until I had something to work with. It got worse till I prevailed upon him to hear out my idea to get the job done. I said LEMME MAKE IT AND YOU INSTALL IT. He objected because I'm the tortoise. I replied, BUT YOU AINT MAKING SHIT YOUR RABBIT WAY.

So we trades jobs. And it was like a miracle. The stuff was made right and installed fast. We amazed everyone. All expected bloodshed but Jim and me were a good team.

 

[lovecraft68]

No. the only way this so called war can end is in complete victory - for Laurel. The AH mod's activities just seem to wind the disputants up even more.

If Laurel could summon up the intestinal fortitude and just toss out permanently no more than a handful of people, there would be no problem going forward.

That result would be in comparative terms a little unfair to some of those disposed of but it would work for two reasons; first it would show those remaining that Laurel isn't a wimp and second 90% of the problems would be gone.

One or two of the targets have a lot of stories on lit. So what, none of them has more than 0.1% of the total. They would not be missed - but they might miss the free advertising vicariously given to their paid work.

So surprise us Laurel, take out the trash.

I'd be more impressed if she did that on the General Board and even more impressed if banned meant banned as in on the rare occasions someone is blown up and they show right back up saying exactly who they are they get blown up again and again.

One person being blown up in this forum, the one who since the creation of the mod has done nothing but start thread after thread -many of which should be noted have nothing to do with writing and should be moved to the gb(and wouldn't that end their games?) would quiet down the majority of the recent BS.

That and warning a couple of other people that when you start a thread that you know is going to cause an argument you will lose the privilege of starting anymore for a period of time.

 

[lovecraft68]

35 years ago life forced me to work with a sworn enemy. He fired me many times, often minutes after I walked in the door wherever he happened to be the honcho. But on this occasion he couldn't fire me because he was my partner not my boss.

Neither of us was happy about it. Jim and me were as different as can be when it came to work. I did it right, he did it now. I don't do wham, bam, thank you ma'am.

Anyway Jim decided we'd divide the work, he'd make the stuff and I'd install it.

It didn't work. Jim fucked up everything he made, and I couldn't install shit until I had something to work with. It got worse till I prevailed upon him to hear out my idea to get the job done. I said LEMME MAKE IT AND YOU INSTALL IT. He objected because I'm the tortoise. I replied, BUT YOU AINT MAKING SHIT YOUR RABBIT WAY.

So we trades jobs. And it was like a miracle. The stuff was made right and installed fast. We amazed everyone. All expected bloodshed but Jim and me were a good team.

Here's one for you.

I've been at the same job for a total of 29 years. Started in my teens when all it consisted of was the owner, his two daughters, one of their boyfriends and me working out of his garage.

Three years later we were in an actual factory building with 35 employees, but that's when I took my little 'vacation' for a couple years, when I came back he gave me a chance and I've worked there ever since and the place continued to grow.

In that time I have been fired eleven, yes eleven, times. Mostly for arguing with the owner and having the nerve to do the right thing including 6 years ago firing his son in law who sexually harassed a sixteen year old Spanish girl working as an intern for the summer.

I have two nick names at my company "Scourge" for a variety of reasons and "Jetson" for how many times I've been canned.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Here's one for you.

I've been at the same job for a total of 29 years. Started in my teens when all it consisted of was the owner, his two daughters, one of their boyfriends and me working out of his garage.

Three years later we were in an actual factory building with 35 employees, but that's when I took my little 'vacation' for a couple years, when I came back he gave me a chance and I've worked there ever since and the place continued to grow.

In that time I have been fired eleven, yes eleven, times. Mostly for arguing with the owner and having the nerve to do the right thing including 6 years ago firing his son in law who sexually harassed a sixteen year old Spanish girl working as an intern for the summer.

I have two nick names at my company "Scourge" for a variety of reasons and "Jetson" for how many times I've been canned.

Your tale reminds me of a company I worked for. I wont suffer fools gladly but I don't wanna be the boss. I wanna do my job right and go home. I worked for the company many times cuz I quit a lot. And theyd always say YOU AINT NEVER COMING BACK HERE TO WORK! and I'd always reply I WILL BE BACK WHEN YOU NEED THE GODDAMNED JOB DONE RIGHT. I quit for the last time when they offered me the boss position for the architectural sheet metal shop where all the fancy copper shit was made.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

As heartwarming as these tales of personal indispensability are, I don't think they have much application to Lit, unless Laurel and Manu have some sort of break-up-to-make-up thing going, and if they do I don't want to know about it. The rest of us here are entirely dispensable. That said, I don't think colddesiel's suggestion is likely to happen. If Laurel were inclined that way it would have happened long ago, and she'd likely have started with the General Board. To wit, if there's a solution to the long acknowledged rise in hostility here, it's coming from us, not her.

I think Arngrim's suggestion is about the most solid thing to come out of the thread; and two people, one considered contentious (that would be me), have already agreed it's worth a shot. Two isn't twenty but it's the closest anyone's gotten to a workable suggestion.

Can I ask the mod to 1) copy Arngrim's post to a sticky (with a note that it's not canon and not law, at least yet) so it doesn't get lost in all the heartwarmingness, and 2) comment on the feasibility and desirability of enforcing rules that broad, at least for a while?

 

[lovecraft68]

In order for a war to end, all sides need to come to some sort of agreement, understanding, or truce. I don't see that happening here. Far too many would have to admit fault, compromise, and change how they interact with others here.

In a virtual space where there are no consequences for one's actions, "getting along" is a pipe dream.

However, I think the Author's Hangout could at the very least be a bit more enjoyable if everyone followed a few simple guidelines:

- Stay on topic. Don't thread-jack or make a topic all about yourself, even if you created it.

- Don't insult, belittle, or be condescending towards another poster or to genres, fantasies, and fetishes you personally dislike. (Thanks Carnal_Flower!)

- Likewise, don't be obtuse and assume everything that is said to you is a personal attack.

- Don't publicly accuse others of cheating, rigging, or gaming the contests. If something looks suspicious to you, report it to the admins.

- Don't try to police the board. It's an exercise in futility.

- Stop judging authors based on what they write.

- Don't instigate, intimidate, or otherwise cause a disruption for the sake of causing a disruption. A.k.a. don't feed the trolls or stir the pot.

- If you absolutely cannot stand someone, put them on ignore. You'll be doing yourself, as well as everyone else, a favor.

- Most importantly, treat everyone with respect.

These are all reasonable guidelines that anyone is capable of following. Unless, you thrive on chaos, that is.

This all falls under commons sense and its how many act in real life, the first part of the post says it all that there is no consequences. For instance would the person over the summer that sent me a feedback saying they wished my wife had died of cancer had said that face to face? Highly doubt it.

I think what happens-and using myself as an example as I know how I think-is just letting things slide by not responding to an insult or a something generally offensive of stupid etc...is letting the person get away with it and they think they can keep doing it, then when you get people with that same mindset opposing each other, it just keeps going.

 

[LadyVer]

Ah, a late entry shit stirrer has arrived.

I actually like to join in discussions. I don't expect everyone to like or agree with my comments. I don't comment as much now because of health and work, and having people who go out of their way to put others down because of their own issues, or because they just like to stir the pot.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I actually like to join in discussions. I don't expect everyone to like or agree with my comments. I don't comment as much now because of health and work, and having people who go out of their way to put others down because of their own issues, or because they just like to stir the pot.

Some of us do it cuz we're right.

 

[LadyVer]

Some of us do it cuz we're right.

I'm not going to opine on the subject of having to be right.

 

[Laurel]

No. the only way this so called war can end is in complete victory - for Laurel. The AH mod's activities just seem to wind the disputants up even more.

If Laurel could summon up the intestinal fortitude and just toss out permanently no more than a handful of people, there would be no problem going forward.

That result would be in comparative terms a little unfair to some of those disposed of but it would work for two reasons; first it would show those remaining that Laurel isn't a wimp and second 90% of the problems would be gone.

One or two of the targets have a lot of stories on lit. So what, none of them has more than 0.1% of the total. They would not be missed - but they might miss the free advertising vicariously given to their paid work.

So surprise us Laurel, take out the trash.

The problem with this is that opinions on who the "troublemakers" are varies. Were we to ban everyone of whom we've received complaints, the outcry would be deafening. Many authors would probably leave in protest.

And the remainder would likely immediately start insulting each other.

We just supply the venue and the software. You people are the ones who make the community what it is - with your thoughts and ideas and stories and jokes.

It's your responsibility to plant and feed the kind of discussions you want to grow.

Authors here are a diverse bunch, but there is no reason you can't all coexist if you choose to do so. But you have to make that choice. We can't make it for you.

We made the new rule reluctantly and after much thought. We did so because many AHers were insistent that things would improve with our intervention.

Instead, far too many people still slip in negativity under the bar. And far too many others jump to the bait, so the arguments and flaming continue.

The reality is that if you all want this place to be a flamefest, there is nothing we can do to stop you, short of banning everyone.

We can't make you all be civil to each other.

If you don't want arguments and personal insults here, then don't argue and don't insult each other.

You don't like someone? Put them on your ignore list. Don't read their posts. It's that simple - if a civil, polite, and respectful AH is your goal.

Every time you argue with or insult another user who you perceive as a troll or otherwise worthy of insult, then you are part of the problem.

No matter who justified you feel, personal insults and flaming make you no better than whatever "troll" you're"battling". Fight fire with fire long enough and you will burn away everything good from this place.

You can either fight for civility by being civil - starting constructive and insightful and helpful and fun and sexy discussions (and using Ignore on those who are not) - or you continue to fight with each other until the AH is massive flaming troll pit that makes the GB look like a lovefest.

It's up to you all. We can't push the river.

 

[Nathan_Brazil]

I'm just hoping to drain the swamp...

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm just hoping to drain the swamp...

Then you have to worry about what lies beneath

 

[Nathan_Brazil]

Very rich farmland?

 

[Arngrim]

This all falls under commons sense and its how many act in real life, the first part of the post says it all that there is no consequences. For instance would the person over the summer that sent me a feedback saying they wished my wife had died of cancer had said that face to face? Highly doubt it.

I think what happens-and using myself as an example as I know how I think-is just letting things slide by not responding to an insult or a something generally offensive of stupid etc...is letting the person get away with it and they think they can keep doing it, then when you get people with that same mindset opposing each other, it just keeps going.

It all is common sense, yet so many (intentionally?) don't use it.

Another recurring problem I see in the Author's Hangout is people not letting things go. I "get" that receiving such feedback would piss you off. It would me, and I'd likely not be willing to forgive them. However, for the better of a comfortable, creative community, would it not be better to just let it go? After all, their post to you is obviously with the intention of pissing you off, and you're giving them exactly what they want. Everyone is anonymous, more or less, here and as a consequence, they can "get away with it" whether you call them out or not. It is as much a futile effort as trying to police the board.

Forgive, but never forget.

Guys and gals, are these years old issues really worth rehashing over and over again? Newcomers aren't going to have a clue as to what is going on, nor will most care. In one specific case I've seen, if you all feel the need to protect newbies from a certain someone, trust me, it's very easy to see through them. Pointing it out, daily, only causes a ruckus, which anyone can see is exactly what they want.

Again, forgive, but never forget.

I'm not suggesting everyone hold hands around a campfire, singing "Row, Row, Row Your Boat," but letting go of these petty hostilities could go a long way.

On a side note, I'm actually surprised that a few have taken an actual interest in the list of guidelines I made. Should I put them in a separate thread to discuss it further? I mean, worth a shot, right?

 

[lovecraft68]

Very rich farmland?

Better, but you know what's always under those farms; tunnels filled with hidden races and ghouls and families that have been inbreeding for centuries and...Okay, too much HP Lovecraft lurking fear it seems..

 

[Nathan_Brazil]

Look... I know that fights have happened. I understand that some of the authors here HATE each other. Please... We all get that.

But for the sake of a better environment, can't we let it go?

...and yes, I do feel a little bit like Rodney King here.

 

[NaokoSmith]

I think Arngrim's suggestion is about the most solid thing to come out of the thread; and two people, one considered contentious (that would be me), have already agreed it's worth a shot. Two isn't twenty but it's the closest anyone's gotten to a workable suggestion.

Just because you two are shouting loudly doesn't mean everyone agrees with you. Most of us - very many more than 'twenty' - are just quietly getting on with what we enjoy about this Forum. Both of you (unless you have more posts under another name) are pretty new here. It would be helpful if you waited a year or two before weighing in to say how things should be run.

Every time you argue with or insult another user who you perceive as a troll or otherwise worthy of insult, then you are part of the problem.

The problem is not the 'trolls'. There is an easy solution now, at last, to insulting and disruptive posts - report them.

The problem is those of us who are tempted to try and score off the 'trolls', to reply to them, to engage with them. That gives them oxygen.

There isn't a single one of the 'trolls' whom I would want to see banned, even if you could prevent someone who had had an avatar taken down just putting up a new one. As I said previously, everyone on this board takes time to contribute and discuss writing issues. Almost all of those who are thought of as 'trolls' talk to others on here intelligently about how to post stories up here, except a couple who are clearly two slices short of a sandwich. To their credit, most seem to have stopped short of leaping into threads where those couple of people have tipped over the edge, to make trolling remarks and drive them further into madness.

This board is for writers and readers to chat together. If some behave badly and others give them the equivalent of applause for doing so by paying them attention, then what result do you expect?

If you see a pile of shit and stick your hands in it, don't be surprised if it sticks.

I know how hard it can be not to quickly dash off something which seems like a witty riposte to some slow stupid old troll and impress your friends and enemies alike. In the past that was quite a jolly game you could play on here. But the trolling has become too much, and now we should just cut it out so that people who are good writers and used to chat on here freely, contributing to ideas about how to develop writing, might decide they want to come back and do so again.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

The only people I've ever put on Ignore are Scouries and SJP.

Why? Flooding the AH and blasting with oversized fonts, pages and images I don't want to see.

It's visual pollution from people who need attention, full stop.

 

[lovecraft68]

Just because you two are shouting loudly doesn't mean everyone agrees with you. Most of us - very many more than 'twenty' - are just quietly getting on with what we enjoy about this Forum. Both of you (unless you have more posts under another name) are pretty new here. It would be helpful if you waited a year or two before weighing in to say how things should be run.



The problem is not the 'trolls'. There is an easy solution now, at last, to insulting and disruptive posts - report them.

The problem is those of us who are tempted to try and score off the 'trolls', to reply to them, to engage with them. That gives them oxygen.

There isn't a single one of the 'trolls' whom I would want to see banned, even if you could prevent someone who had had an avatar taken down just putting up a new one. As I said previously, everyone on this board takes time to contribute and discuss writing issues. Almost all of those who are thought of as 'trolls' talk to others on here intelligently about how to post stories up here, except a couple who are clearly two slices short of a sandwich. To their credit, most seem to have stopped short of leaping into threads where those couple of people have tipped over the edge, to make trolling remarks and drive them further into madness.

This board is for writers and readers to chat together. If some behave badly and others give them the equivalent of applause for doing so by paying them attention, then what result do you expect?

If you see a pile of shit and stick your hands in it, don't be surprised if it sticks.

I know how hard it can be not to quickly dash off something which seems like a witty riposte to some slow stupid old troll and impress your friends and enemies alike. In the past that was quite a jolly game you could play on here. But the trolling has become too much, and now we should just cut it out so that people who are good writers and used to chat on here freely, contributing to ideas about how to develop writing, might decide they want to come back and do so again.

Right, like I chose to ignore your personal attack on me back in your 'unsafe' thread, the one where you chose to bring up a three year old conversation between us that happened off site and quite the revisionist history of it, I might add.

Then your post was followed within minutes of your best friend's 'slow clap of applause' post to team up on it.

I asked myself, okay three years later you post this? Then it dawned on me, there's a mod now, you were hoping for me to jump in on it, to fight with you and prove some kind of point or better yet the mod delete my posts. And also because with the Mod you felt safer in taking shots at me because previously mentioned best friend is part of a clique I'm sure you're in quite well with and you wanted either some revenge on me or a ;look I'll jump him too"

But I didn't, I let it go and eventually you actually admitted your thread was a way to manipulate people and try to stir things up, so points to you for being big enough to admit that (insert slow clap of applause)

Then you went further later on posting you list of 'people safe to talk to here' meaning anyone not on that list should be avoided, meaning you were trying to influence new people here who to talk or not talk to.

The thread was finally closed do to complaints about it and the fact it was a pure troll bait thread.

Now I'm not bringing this up to fight with you, Naoko, if I wanted to fight I'd have done it there. For the most part I get a kick out of you(other than the incessant pimping of your blog which I doubt is necessary at this point for as long as you have been here) so I'm not 'out to for you' in anyway.

But my post proves you as guilty as anyone else you've pointed at in your unsafe thread and here, so you should heed your own words.

That's all I have on that, being a misunderstood genius is taxing and I'm getting tired from all the posting and non serious writing I do

You may have one with me, but I have no quarrel with you other than don't play coy because you're better-and savvier- than that.

 

[Nathan_Brazil]

The only people I've ever put on Ignore are Scouries and SJP.

Why? Flooding the AH and blasting with oversized fonts, pages and images I don't want to see.

It's visual pollution from people who need attention, full stop.

Heh! I have exactly three people on ignore. All three from the Political board, and I suspect that all 3 are the same person.

 

[lovecraft68]

Heh! I have exactly three people on ignore. All three from the Political board, and I suspect that all 3 are the same person.

At one point I had someone on ignore in the GB then all of a sudden I see a poster ona thread and it said I had him on ignore. I had never placed that person on my list and I asked someone about it and they said that on occasions, if you put someone on ignore their alts are automatically ignored which would be an awesome tool there, but it doesn't happen all the time, might depend on how they create the alt, maybe if its from a different IP address?

 

[Nathan_Brazil]

That would certainly help with sock-puppet identification. Heh!

I had someone's puppet send me a PM the day I posted Misfit Sex-toys. They were just positive that they'd caught me out. Swore I was Sammael Bard. It was the best laugh I had all week.

 

[lovecraft68]

That would certainly help with sock-puppet identification. Heh!

I had someone's puppet send me a PM the day I posted Misfit Sex-toys. They were just positive that they'd caught me out. Swore I was Sammael Bard. It was the best laugh I had all week.

I'm pissed about that story, because I should have told you to keep having everything coming back to "Dolf" is you studied the GB you would know what that means.

 

[Nathan_Brazil]

I'm pissed about that story, because I should have told you to keep having everything coming back to "Dolf" is you studied the GB you would know what that means.

You know I asked for help on that.

I'm no student of the GB. Those folks mostly have the brain cooties.

I ended up keeping things brief. It hurt less than doing the research.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

myself as an example as I know how I think-is just letting things slide by not responding to an insult or a something generally offensive of stupid etc...is letting the person get away with it and they think they can keep doing it, then when you get people with that same mindset opposing each other, it just keeps going.

It's tempting to think that way and I've done it myself. But as Naoko says later on, it just gives the fires more oxygen. Flamers love feedback - people fundamentally love attention. I've seen rare cases where slapping someone across the face in an internet forum had a positive effect; it works when you have a community of sweet and reasonable people and a newbie shows up and goes rampaging. But it does not work here. I've tried it once, many of you have tried it repeatedly. We're all too contentious (bowing to Naoko, who isn't) to take our spanking and go settle in the corner and vow to be better.

I'm volunteering to avoid posting about things that experience has shown me are deeply contentious here. I don't love the idea because I enjoy a good argument as long as it's impersonal, but I've worked out that impersonal is not what happens here, that cannot change, so it's better to be quieter on certain things. I've also offered an apology for making a statement I could not prove (and now believe to be false.)

Best I know how to do, to further the site's goals.

When I created this thread I had the stated goals. But I also knew it would draw the contentious like moths unto a flame (and said as much in the other thread). Well, here we are. We are the troublemakers (again, with a bow to Naoko). We might think we're all just righteous crusaders for truth, but there simply isn't a drop of provable truth in the flames here. We might think we're offering interesting viewpoints, but it's obvious they're perceived as flame-bait of the worst kind, so it's up to us to stop offering them. We might think we're just defending ourselves, but I'm reminded of my father's advice (too rarely taken) "If a lie is spoken, leave it lying in the mud. If you pick it up you just get muddy. Move on and it will be forgotten, along with the person who spoke it."

We're the people who need to agree to the common sense suggestions in the list that was proposed.

No one's said anything worse about Angrim's list than it's pie in the sky.

It's not. It's how some groups actually operate. I was in a writers group years ago (not erotica) full of people much younger than most folk here (young enough that it was full of romantic intrigue, always a source of trouble). Some strong personalities were in it (after all, I was there...). Yet it ran like clockwork for over a decade because we all agreed that it should. Of course, the stories we worked on weren't rated and there were no contests; it was writing for pure entertainment and to amuse each other. But the point is, even writers can get along if they make the conscious decision to do so. I've seen it happen and I can't see why it cannot happen here.

If we - the people in this thread - agree to let go of personal attacks, then it becomes safer to use Ignore on people you're just never going to like. We can rely on others, who haven't set Ignore, to flag posts as attacks *even if they aren't the person attacked.*. In short we can collectively take out our trash.

This isn't some impossible standard; it has been done and it can be done.