Germany cries out....

[SnoopDog]

A couple of years ago germany decided on one of the most stupid things: To change the rules of writing, grammar and punctuation.

Up to today I never understood why they did this ? It was supposed to be easier for people who learned the language. It was supposed to be more clear and useful. But imagine an entire country getting to know new rules of writing.

Of course for younger generations it's more easier to adapt to new ways of writing or reading but for older people it was a bitch. Most of them continued to use the old ways. There is a time when both writings, old and new, are allowed in official forms, etc. but now as this time is ending and the new writing will be the only real thing people are crying 'bloody murder'.

Everybody wants our old language back. When people write they don't recall rules or stuff. They write things because they 'feel' they are right. It feels right to make a comma there or to write this with a capital letter.

So everybody continued to write like they did.

Now people consider going back to the way it was which means that I have to get rid of all the things I just got used to (for example 'ss' instead of 'ß'). I would appreciate this though.

But what's with the kids who just learned the new way and never got to know the old. They'll have te re-learn it again.
It's a fucked-up mess. And why?

Because everybody wanted to sell new dictionaries and lexika and stuff.

Well now they get to sell them again....

Snoopy, hoping this made any sense to you

 

[rgraham666]

Sigh, a language is a living thing. It changes and grows and adapts to new situations.

Trying to force it into an 'official' straight jacket will merely freeze it in time, making it impossible to change.

And there is only one place where there is no change. Among the fossils.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

It's a fucked-up mess. And why?

Because everybody wanted to sell new dictionaries and lexika and stuff.

Changing the methods of teaching a subject is a big business in the US, where some new fad comes out every 4-5 years or so, and it’s usually fueled by educators who are getting kick-backs from text-book publishers. Text book publishing is a huge business, especially if you can convicne someone that all the books they’re using are now obsolete.

Some years ago we were treated to “The New Math” which attempted to teach mathematical logic before it taught arithmetic. It was a huge and massive failure and it took American Education a good decade to recover.

Around here we just finished a disastrous experiment with “whole language learning” in which they wouldn’t teach the kids spelling or grammar because they didn’t want to stifle their natural creativity with a bunch of bothersome rules. Well kids aren’t dummies. They knew they didn’t know how to spell or punctuate and it embarrassed them. Now we’ve got all these college students who can’t write a simple declarative sentence to save their ass. The ‘self-esteem’ movement in education (everything and anything the kids do is equally good; criticism is damaging to a child’s self-esteem) has done incalculable damage and led to ridiculosities like high school freshmen being allowed to draw a picture of Abraham Lincoln instead of turning in a written report.

What did they change, Snoop? The spelling? Grammar?

---dr.M.

 

[CrazyyAngel]

Re: Re: Germany cries out....

What did they change, Snoop? The spelling? Grammar?

Mostly spelling, but some grammar too ... if I remember correctly. Never bothered too much with it.

And I am with rgraham here ... a language should change by itself, not be changed by the government.

CA

 

[RavenSpirit2k4]

This is about how it was for us in the US when they kept trying to change us over to the metric system, but finally gave up.

 

[pop_54]

Yep I'm with the others here... a language should be allowed to develop and modify naturally not forcibly... That's what pisses me off about the die hard purists who insist on perfect by the book English, at all times, and every time.

We've had these failed experiments over here in the schools as well over the years... none lasted long fortunately... but some lasted long enough to give us a fair few morons coming out of the schools at various times.

 

[matriarch]

Yep I'm with the others here... a language should be allowed to develop and modify naturally not forcibly... That's what pisses me off about the die hard purists who insist on perfect by the book English, at all times, and every time.

We've had these failed experiments over here in the schools as well over the years... none lasted long fortunately... but some lasted long enough to give us a fair few morons coming out of the schools at various times.

I'm with you Pops. I work in the Education Department of my local council, and the things the DfES (Depatment for Education and Skills), regularly send out, instigate, whatever, would make your hair curl.

The worst part, is that the ones these initiatives (what a lovely word for cock up) are supposed to help - the kids and, believe it or not, the teachers - are the ones that have to suffer the chaos that results, until they are withdrawn, or replaced with yet more crackpot schemes.

Only now, are they beginning to realise the disastrous effects on general literacy and numeracy skills. Write a sentence they can just about manage, but for some of them, the thought of reading a book, or writing an essay is a Herculean task, totally beyond their skills and capabilities.

Mat

 

[Weird Harold]

A couple of years ago germany decided on one of the most stupid things: To change the rules of writing, grammar and punctuation.

Up to today I never understood why they did this ? ...

... which means that I have to get rid of all the things I just got used to (for example 'ss' instead of 'ß'). I would appreciate this though.

It looks from your example that the changes may have been intended to "Internationalize" German by doing away with the "extra" letters in the German alphabet? Possibly to make German more compatible with the 26 characters of the ASCII character set and thus with the internet and other computer usage.

Personally, I can't fault the general concept of making a language more compatible with the growing international nature of the world, but it seems to me that it shouldn't require a government edict to accomplish that goal -- it's going to happen naturally in time and happen in a way that people can intuitively deal with; without destroying the character of the language inthe process.

 

[TheEarl]

Snoop: If it makes you feel any better, I always used the B rather than the ss. When typing, a capital B substitutes quite nicely - I dislike the idea of changing the character of the language to anglicise it.

My God! I was going to write the above in German and then realised I couldn't even do the first sentence anymore. I've got to start thinking in foreign languages again!

The Earl

 

[SnoopDog]

Snoop: If it makes you feel any better, I always used the B rather than the ss. When typing, a capital B substitutes quite nicely - I dislike the idea of changing the character of the language to anglicise it.

My God! I was going to write the above in German and then realised I couldn't even do the first sentence anymore. I've got to start thinking in foreign languages again!

The Earl

losely translates to:

Snoop: Falls Du Dich dann besser fühlst, I habe immer das 'ß' anstelle von 'ss' verwendet. Beim Schreiben ersetzt es ein großes 'B' recht gut - Mir misfällt die Idee den Character der Sprache zu ändern, um sie zu anglizisieren.

Snoopy

 

[SeaCat]

Hey Snoop,

It could be worse my friend, truly worse. remember I live in the country which is trying to change it's language to allow more people appear literate. (The move to bring Ebonics into the mainstream comes to mind.) Their attitude is that if people learn a way to speak either at home or on the streets in one small section of the country then it should be accepted in others, not to do this would be racialy unacceptable. (By the by, Ebonics is an artificial language or shortspeak made up in the mean streets of L.A.)

This is much like the new movement to recognise Spanglish, which is a mix of English and Spanish. It is being pushed by the younger generation, while the older generations of both language cultures deplore it. (I personaly prefer Spanglish to Ebonics from a purely aesthetical viewpoint. To speak Spanglish you have to learn both English and Spanish.)

Cat

 

[snooper]

Snoopy,
I wondered what would happen when the change-over was formalised. Will people be hauled up in court and fined for using ß and then have their appeal all the way up the legal tree to the European Court of Human Rights turned down?

Don't bet that it won't happen. A man in Sunderland (UK) got fined for selling a pound of bananas (to someone who came into his shop and asked for one) instead of 454 grammes after a government decree that the UK is now metric! Imperial measure is illegal except for a few things, like draught beer and milk bottles, which would have caused rioting in the streets, or more importantly, severe loss of votes.

 

[SnoopDog]

Hey Snoop,

It could be worse my friend, truly worse. remember I live in the country which is trying to change it's language to allow more people appear literate. (The move to bring Ebonics into the mainstream comes to mind.) Their attitude is that if people learn a way to speak either at home or on the streets in one small section of the country then it should be accepted in others, not to do this would be racialy unacceptable. (By the by, Ebonics is an artificial language or shortspeak made up in the mean streets of L.A.)

This is much like the new movement to recognise Spanglish, which is a mix of English and Spanish. It is being pushed by the younger generation, while the older generations of both language cultures deplore it. (I personaly prefer Spanglish to Ebonics from a purely aesthetical viewpoint. To speak Spanglish you have to learn both English and Spanish.)

Cat

I know what you mean. But we have a kind of similar problem with the language of our kids because Germany has a lot of immigrants living here today and so a lot of school classes have foreign majorities. So the german language really is declining.

Snoopy

 

[rgraham666]

Maybe we shouldn't worry too much about languages disappearing.

A language has to be useful to the society it lives in. If it stops being useful, that is people can't use it to communicate with each other, maybe it should die out.

I think English is a good example here. The main strength of English is that it shamelessly steals words from other languages. These new words bring in new concepts that can make society more useful.

I hope, someday, there will be a single language, so everybody can talk to one another. It might, I repeat might, lessen the distances we've built between ourselves.

 

[CrazyyAngel]

Don't bet that it won't happen. A man in Sunderland (UK) got fined for selling a pound of bananas (to someone who came into his shop and asked for one) instead of 454 grammes after a government decree that the UK is now metric! Imperial measure is illegal except for a few things, like draught beer and milk bottles, which would have caused rioting in the streets, or more importantly, severe loss of votes.

ROFL ... ah you crazy british people .

CA