German Chancellor Schröder is wrong

[Rex1960]

Sorry to say this, but my government was wrong.

Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, head of the German government, and Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer made probably the worst move in international diplomacy in the post WWII aera.

They claimed they'd vote "No" in the UN Security Council long before the deadline of resolution 1441 was ever close.

This took the pressure a little bit off of Saddam Hussein and made the entire complicated procedure of international diplomatic efforts to discipline Iraq's regime more than just questionable.

The current President of the United States of America is a sabre rattling cowboy who only wanted to finish his Daddy's open account with Iraq's dictator just because it's all about oil ???

BS !! Plain and simple bullshit !!

And even if we'd assume GWB was that stupid,

fact is Iraq is guilty for not following UN Security Council's resolution 1441 (2002), adopted by the Security Council at its 4644th meeting on 11/8/02,
and fact is Iraq is guilty for not following several UN Security Council's resolutions adopted before the above mentioned,

fact is also that Iraq didn't and still doesn't cooperate in the mannor, res 1441 and others before told them to.


Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that Saddam Hussein is a direct threat to homeland USA, but he is an indirect threat by supporting international terrorism, even if it wasn't Al Qaida directly.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't really impressed by what Collin Powell had to show the world as "evidence". But what did we expect ?
A pic showing Hussein, who's giving Ossma Bin Laden a BTR full of AK47 and an envelope full of Benjamin Franklins ?
A list of adresses and telephone numbers of shelters, where they're hiding SCUD warheads full of anthrax ?
A voucher for Bagdhads first gay strip club ? Come on !


My point ?
I truly believe that war is the last option, but how long does it take to see that Saddam Hussein was, is and probably always will be playing tricks, holding back demanded informations, and furthermore was, is, and probably always will be a threat for the entire region, that is, was and probably always will be a gunpowder barrel ?

GWB was clever enough to make it an international thing with UN SC backup and not just a Bush sr./jr vs Hussein showdown at high noon.
But the German Government fucked it up, making the SC and its decisions look like a WWF franchise, where the final result is clear even before the session begins.
No, wait, you've already known that before.

So thanks for making us Germans look like cowards, Mr Schröder.
And just because Jaques Chirac is your new friend, doesn't make it any better. He'll kick your ass sooner as you'll notice it.

May God bless you and your families.
May God bless those who'll fight this war for us.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Do you feel that it's a done deal, and that, at the twelfth hour, Germany (and France) won't climb aboard?

 

[REDWAVE]

Hi, Rex!

Sorry to say this, but my government is wrong. OK-- so I'm not really sorry to say it.


It's not "just" about oil, Rex, it's about the greatest game of all-- global domination, played out on the chessboard of the world. Europe and Japan are much more dependent upon Middle Eastern oil than is the U.S. Controlling the vast oil and gas reserves of the Middle East and Central Asia will enable the U.S. government to bully Europe and Japan, by threatening to shut off their spigot. And those damned persnickety frogs-- they get nothing! Nada! Zip! Zilch! Squat! Buttkiss!

But of course, all this is just Geopolitics 101.

The interesting aspect is the political struggle which is shaping up within the E.U. between the German-French alliance and the U.S. As long as the U.S. government can at least keep the E.U. weak and divided, it can prevent it from emerging as a military rival, although it already is an economic one.

 

[Guest]

I don't think Weed is smart and funny on this thread.

 

[busybody..]

REX


That post of your was one of the most coherent that I have ever read on this board......

I dont believe your "leader" will last the year.....

 

[patient1]

So Rex, are you saying your Chancellor undercut the UN,
and makes the last resort (war) a certainty by taking the pressure away from the peaceful resolution process?

 

[Rex1960]

Do you feel that it's a done deal, and that, at the twelfth hour, Germany (and France) won't climb aboard?

Re France...
their seat in the UN SC is their last possibility to act as "La Grande Nation" with a global meaning. They'll enter the ship on the final call. And then again there's still Russia and China...

Re Germany...
Chancellor Schröder is trapped in his internal national struggling with the German Parliament (Bundestag) AND Senate (Bundesrat).
The latest opinion polls (last sunday) shows only 53 % support for Schröder's anti-war policy. But who wants war anyway.

Schröder most likely won't even survive this full term since he can't do anything against the opposition after our latest elections in 2 federal states (Lower Saxony and Hesse) two weeks ago. He's facing a takeover in my POV.

It would have been better to remain quiet. He could have pointed out how the poor German Armed Forces are already busy in Afghanistan, The Balcan Region and at the horn of Africa and a direct engagement would have been simply impossible due to heavy budget problems.

There's still a German anti-NBC btln dislocated in Kuwait to protect allied troops and Chancellor Schröder was clever enough not to mention that in public since his coalition partner and Foreign Minister Fischer has absolutely no pro-war backup and the coalition is already based on sand. Just a matter of time IMHO.

 

[Rex1960]

Re: Hi, Rex!

Sorry to say this, but my government is wrong. OK-- so I'm not really sorry to say it.


It's not "just" about oil, Rex, it's about the greatest game of all-- global domination, played out on the chessboard of the world. Europe and Japan are much more dependent upon Middle Eastern oil than is the U.S. Controlling the vast oil and gas reserves of the Middle East and Central Asia will enable the U.S. government to bully Europe and Japan, by threatening to shut off their spigot. And those damned persnickety frogs-- they get nothing! Nada! Zip! Zilch! Squat! Buttkiss!

But of course, all this is just Geopolitics 101.

The interesting aspect is the political struggle which is shaping up within the E.U. between the German-French alliance and the U.S. As long as the U.S. government can at least keep the E.U. weak and divided, it can prevent it from emerging as a military rival, although it already is an economic one.

Hi RED,

I know your POV, and I admit part of it is really true even in my eyes (I've read some of Michael Parentis lately).
But as a matter of fact, and since I don't believe in any successful revolution on the short neither on the long run, the little step GWB made towards the UN and the SC in this case was destroyed by Schröder when he undermined the credibility of this organisation.

There is no German-France alliance vs the rest of Europe scenario. This coalition is monothematic only and won't last long enough to hit the book of history. But the US vs a weak and devided EU is a scenario I can follow ( If I was the US I wouldn't want a strong Europe).

 

[Rex1960]

REX


That post of your was one of the most coherent that I have ever read on this board......

I dont believe your "leader" will last the year.....

Semper fi, bb,

ty but feel free to follow this example...

And re "leader", neither do I

 

[busybody..]

REX

I wish I could post sane and coherent comments as you do, but I cant......

You see, Im a RACIST (against ALL Muslims/Arabs).......

And I am an extremist........

I get annoyed at the pacifist crowd for their naive thinking......

At one time, I served as a foreign policy advisor for a presidential candidate......(till I resigned because I advocated BOMBING MOST EVERYBODY).......and as a result of THAT position, I was privy to some info that MOST Americans are not aware of......I know some things that would HORIFY the populace.....and this from our so called "allies"........

You see, I really do feel.....several well placed NUKES......actually, neutron bombs......will be to our benefit......

 

[REDWAVE]

German politics

Schroeder squeaked by in the last election by taking an anti-war stance. Once the election was over, he promptly caved to U.S. pressure, which is intense. The recent debacle for the SPD in Hesse and Lower Saxony probably is the handwriting on the wall for Schroeder and the SPD-Green coalition, which totally sold out and betrayed its base once it got in power.

Schroeder's main political problems are the stagnant German economy, high unemployment, and the ongoing assault on the welfare state and slashing of social services, which is deeply unpopular, especially at a time when people are already suffering. The discredited, scandal-ridden CDU, if it gets back in power (which seems likely), will only make matters worse.

Where are Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht when you need them, Rex? O yeah-- they were murdered by the German government shortly after WW1!

More Noske and Scheidemann, anyone?

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Semper fi, bb,

ty but feel free to follow this example...

And re "leader", neither do I

Rex,

In your opinion, are some of the concerns in Europe based on fear of terrorist or other reprisals?

 

[Rex1960]

So Rex, are you saying your Chancellor undercut the UN,
and makes the last resort (war) a certainty by taking the pressure away from the peaceful resolution process?

Let's try to face it, patient1,

GWB might be wrong in all he did so far, but that doesn't mean Saddam Hussein turns out different than what he is, a threat.

Please, lets not confuse cause and result. It was Saddam Hussein who refused to follow international resolutions.

If there was any chance to avoid the war, it would have taken only one thing, namely to make the UN SC work as a supreme international legislative with power to enforce its output, res 1441. Sure it would need USAmerican armed forces to enforce it.

But taking away the pressure doesn't work.

Even now, after GWB claimed, "the game is over" and give us another final "final resolution" there's still a chance to peacefully unarm Iraq.

The less pressure we produce, the more Saddam is encouraged to do what he's always done, playing tricks and playing the time card.
Maybe we could encourage his followers to run away, maybe we could encourage them to kick his ass in a coup d'état, maybe we could make Saddam leave his country... anything what helps to unarm Iraq peacefully.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Well thought out thread, Rex. I can't add much to your reasoned and reasonable post.

 

[Rex1960]

Rex,

In your opinion, are some of the concerns in Europe based on fear of terrorist or other reprisals?

We have a long history of terrorism here in Europe,

the IRA in Northern Ireland, the ETA in Spain/Basque, the Red Brigades in Italy and Germany and most recently the tchetchnias vs Russia .

I can hardly speak for other country, I can hardly even speak for all Germans, but fear of terrorism as a result of a war on Iraq, is most likely not the point. Au contraire - Germany's Navy is part of that "war on terrorism" fleet with its Djibuti based squadron.

Most of the concerns are based on the fear that there's no post war Iraq reconstructing program that would work, plus a lacking defense budget, plus underequipped Armed Forces not ready to face a war (since we're not talking about peacekeeping or nationbuilding measures here).

But the major concern is based on a weak coalition only.

 

[weed]

I don't think Weed is smart and funny on this thread.

I wouldn't be funny with a perspective I don't often get.

It's easy to think about how we affect the rest of the world but I personally don't stop to think about how some of the actions, diplomatic and otherwise, affect our international diplomacy.

To me if there's just no other way there should be a global coalition and those post-war issues considered more carefully.

 

[Rex1960]

Re: REX

I wish I could post sane and coherent comments as you do, but I cant......

You see, Im a RACIST (against ALL Muslims/Arabs).......

And I am an extremist........

I get annoyed at the pacifist crowd for their naive thinking......

At one time, I served as a foreign policy advisor for a presidential candidate......(till I resigned because I advocated BOMBING MOST EVERYBODY).......and as a result of THAT position, I was privy to some info that MOST Americans are not aware of......I know some things that would HORIFY the populace.....and this from our so called "allies"........

You see, I really do feel.....several well placed NUKES......actually, neutron bombs......will be to our benefit......

I cannot properly point out how wrong your "opinion" is in my eyes.

The racistic way wouldn't work.
Just look at a world map and look how much muslims you gotta kill. Pure nonsense and as much Utopia as in REDWAVES world.

Though the pacifist way wouldn't work either.
You cannot slap oppressors and dictators like Saddam (and many others) with an olive twist claiming "don't you dare" and that's it.

And no, Sir, even the Neutron Bombs scenario wouldn't work.

But that would be probably too complicated to explain. Be well aware that MartinMarietta, McDonnellDouglas and wth else consults your Leaders make sure your taxdollar is well spent.
Just a few neutron bombs won't make it a good ROI.
It's not about oil as I've said before, it's exactly this "shareholder value" what it's probably all about. You might consider that a benefit.

 

[Rex1960]

Well thought out thread, Rex. I can't add much to your reasoned and reasonable post.

That's not necessary, Miss L.V.2002,

just spread your legs and show us wankers some pussy.

Maybe we could send Saddam your AV to pull him out of his chair.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

That's not necessary, Miss L.V.2002,

just spread your legs and show us wankers some pussy.

Maybe we could send Saddam your AV to pull him out of his chair.

\

Finally. A sane approach.

 

[Rex1960]

\

Finally. A sane approach.

I somehow feel you have a tongue in your cheek

 

[A Desert Rose]

Never entertain the thought that you gentlemen are not all kindred spirits with busybody.

LOL

 

[Rex1960]

Never entertain the thought that you gentlemen are not all kindred spirits with busybody.

LOL

<in my most innocent look> moi ?

 

[Rex1960]

Re: German politics

Schroeder squeaked by in the last election by taking an anti-war stance. Once the election was over, he promptly caved to U.S. pressure, which is intense. The recent debacle for the SPD in Hesse and Lower Saxony probably is the handwriting on the wall for Schroeder and the SPD-Green coalition, which totally sold out and betrayed its base once it got in power.

Schroeder's main political problems are the stagnant German economy, high unemployment, and the ongoing assault on the welfare state and slashing of social services, which is deeply unpopular, especially at a time when people are already suffering. The discredited, scandal-ridden CDU, if it gets back in power (which seems likely), will only make matters worse.

Where are Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht when you need them, Rex? O yeah-- they were murdered by the German government shortly after WW1!

More Noske and Scheidemann, anyone?

How come I've not seen this post before ?

Like almost always you're partly right and partly off the track.

Why don't you reread and edit your post, RED ? Just leave the propaganda out and you'd sound even more profound.
Well, at least to a point. Let's find out, where they are:


NO, we had this pre-election anti-war shit earlier in another thread, RED, and your're obviously not listening to what I've said back then. The SPD-Green coalition DID NOT win the election because of their anti-war stance.

NO, Schröder did not cave to US pressure. Though I find his position wrong I cannot detect any caving.

Yes the debacle in those two federal states elections are the results of Schröders false propaganda of his campaign for national election last fall.

NO Schröders problem is neither the stagnant economy nor the high unemployment. Schröders problem is that he didn't solved any of these problems in his last term and now still don't know how to handle it properly.

NO There's no assault on the welfare state and slashing of social services. You have probably not a single inch of an idea how this social security system works in Germany. The problem is, that our social security system is still based on a macro-economic theory and, even worse, on demoscopic figures of the late 1890s (btw under emperial chancellor Bismarck)

NO It's not just unpopular to take any social benefit back from the suffering German worker, it's pretty close to impossible.
But since the suffering German worker is most likely unaware of the fact that he's probably a very rich suffering worker compared to those workers on the southern hemisphere.
C'mon, RED, admit your statement was pure parody.

NO The CDU is neither discredited, nor scandal-ridden. With it's huge majority in the Bundesrat the party is already back in power.

NO Matters couldn't get worse

YES Rosa and Karl are dead. Like communism.

Now lets count

2x yes
7x no

Not bad. But I've seen you already better than this.

 

[Rex1960]

bump

.

 

[busybody..]

My man Don Rumsfeld seems to have ranged the Germans. He the one behind the now-established phrase "Old Europe", and a couple of days ago he did it again.

Rumsfeld was asked at the congressional hearing what kind of cooperation the Bush administration could expect from other nations in the event of a war. He listed several he considered supportive and others he thought might come around to backing the operation.

"And then there are three or four countries that have said they won't do anything. I believe Libya, Cuba and Germany are the ones that I have indicated won't help in any respect," Rumsfeld told the House Armed Services Committee.

I almost bust a gut laughing when I saw this. German guts seem to be busting, too, but not out of laughter. Rummy's going to be visiting Munich tomorrow, and protests are planned. Which means that the protesters don't understand. It went completely over their heads.

Rumsfeld wanted them to get angry. He's "firing for effect". He will take large protests as a clear indication that his message scored a hit. The louder they are, the bigger of a grin he's going to be wearing. The message was clear: we're not happy with you.

And German politicians are showing clearly that they can dish it out but can't take it. For the last year various among them have been heaping criticism on us, with nary an indication that maybe, just maybe, sometimes, the US actually does good things. You sure wouldn't have known it to listen to them, though. Evil incarnate, those Americans. Bloodthirsty warmongers.

Karsten Voigt, the German government's top adviser on U.S. relations, said Rumsfeld was forgetting that Germany was deeply engaged in peacekeeping missions in the Balkans and Afghanistan.

"Whoever fails to mention that publicly, is making a political mistake, I think," he told Bayerischen Rundfunk radio.

No, it's no mistake. If he was concerned about offending Germany, then it would be a mistake. But he was trying to be offensive. We Jacksonians are polite to those who deserve it, but never to those who have through concerted and deliberate effort earned a place of honor on our shit-list.

Since Herr Voigt is the top adviser on US Relations, let me see if I can give him a clue here. We don't worry about offending lying weasels. There's a really good reason why the phrase "Axis of Weasels" took hold here; it struck a chord with the prevailing zeitgeist. My dictionary provides the following definition for "weasel":

1. a small carnivorous mammal with a long body and tail, short legs, and brown fur that in northern species may turn white in winter.
2. somebody who is regarded as sly or underhanded (informal insult)

Perhaps Herr Voigt's time would be more fruitfully spent if he began to ask himself why the Americans are growing to hate him and his government. ("Hate" is too strong a word; "growing contemptuous of" is probably more accurate. "Ceasing to care about". "Ceasing to respect".) But in the mean time, we've got a couple of aphorisms in English which might be of assistance to him:

"If the shoe fits, wear it."

"You've made your bed, now you have to lie in it."

But Herr Voigt again tried to make the same point:

In a separate interview with DeutschlandRadio, Voigt said: "It is not wise to so frivolously endanger a partnership, which is of high significance for us and the Americans, through negligent comments."

He's right, but the message is a day late, a dollar short, and being delivered to the wrong person. The right time to deliver this message was last year, and the person who should have received it was Schröder. A year of public abuse by him and his party is what has endangered this partnership. It's done more than endanger it; it's fractured it seriously. If Voigt held that same job a year ago, then current events prove just how badly he's fucked up.

Klaus Naumann, former chairman of NATO's military committee, said however justified U.S. criticism might be of Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's opposition to a war with Iraq, Rumsfeld's comments were no way to treat a loyal ally.

"Germany is and remains a reliable alliance partner," he told ZDF television. "That's not the way to treat partners.

Apparently the word "reliable" has a different meaning in Germany than it does here. But then, it seems apparent that "alliance" and "partner" also have different meanings (not to mention "loyal"). Those things don't tend to include "stab the Americans in the back if we think we can gain 2 points in the polls by doing so".

If Herr Naumann would like to see what we Americans mean by a "reliable alliance partner", he would do well to look across the channel and observe the behavior of Tony Blair. That is reliable. That is alliance. That is a partner. Germany isn't any of those things, any longer. (Oh, and that is loyalty.)

It isn't just Schröder's opposition to war which is at issue here; it's his cynical use of anti-Americanism for purposes of political posturing at home which is the problem. I agree that this kind of thing is no way to treat a loyal ally, and it sure as hell isn't how we should have been treated last year, let alone again be treated in the campaign leading up to the election a couple of weeks ago.

After the election in August, Schröder tried to tell Washington that he was through with that and wanted to be friends again. But going into a new campaign in December when he was in trouble again, he started denouncing us just like before, in ever more strident terms only this time it didn't work and the voters handed him his ass.

It's not how the US should treat reliable alliance partners, which is why we aren't saying those kinds of things about Tony Blair or John Howard (Prime Minister of Australia). But it is how we should treat weasels, because weasels deserve our contempt. My man Don said exactly the right thing, baby; and it's time for German politicians to stop blaming their problems on anyone except themselves. If German-American relations have soured, it's Germans who did it.