Gender Identity

[haurni]

You mean men think of other things besides cock?

Once in a while. That's when we get around to erecting monuments and inventing patriarchy and stuff like that.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Once in a while. That's when we get around to erecting monuments and inventing patriarchy and stuff like that.

Was that a Freudian slip?

 

[haurni]

Nope.

 

[stickygirl]

never a missed opportunity...

 

[JaxRhapsody]

I almost got lost after a few post. Humans are complicated creatures aleays trying to find what defines us as a person. All the perimeters are there, it just takes some understandings. The way I see it is you have your sex; male or female, gender identity; how you percieve yourself which is male or female, sexual orientation of whom you are attracted to, men, women, transmen or transwomen, intersexed etc. Then the way you carry yourself; yiu are masculine or feminine. If I didnt leave anything out, all those makes up who you are in your lifestyle. From there you habe nearly endless combinations that make up not only lgbt but straight people as well. I include straight people because, forgive me if I have stepped outside my boundary but, you have transwomen(identify as women thrrefore are women) who identify as straight because they date men. Those men identify as straighy because some of them like myself(aside from the straight part) believe that having a vagina(if pre-op) is not whay defines a woman.

These discussions can be taxing on my brain, especially if I let them slide.

 

[stickygirl]

You're nearly right and I could go through and correct a couple of small mistakes but you know what? You've made the effort and that says far more about you than any quibbles over details. You get three of these and a ((hug))

Understanding that there are issues over which people can be sensitive is the important thing.

 

[haurni]

Orientation Police - a comic about gay men dating transmen

 

[stickygirl]

Thanks for that Haurni.... now can someone finally give me a definition for losing virginity?!
and how long do you have to wait before you get it back?

 

[blade_rocknut]

You mean men think of other things besides cock? I do find it humorous that men spend so much time and write so many things which focus on cock and not just their own, all men not just straight men. But you are right, it is ironic that straight men seem to focus so much attention on other men's genital. For this reason I tend not to think of men who obsess over just other men's cocks, you know the type 'I love to suck cock but I don't want sex with a man', as truly being bisexual, although I have no other term to define them.

According to some studies the most homophobic men are those who are unsure of their orientation. Still fantasy is not reality and we all have fantasies, many nonsexual, which we really wouldn't want to become reality. I do think fantasies of a sexual same sex nature can be a sign that a person needs to at least consider her/his orientation but I'm not convinced a same sex fantasy is a good indication of orientation.

There is a lot of awesome in there somewhere. I spend a lot of time wondering just exactly what various fantasies do or don't indicate in my case, and always condition it by reminding myself that reality =/= fantasy.

Oh, and I think about twat quite a bit; regardless of my cock's impending relationship with it.

 

[haurni]

Thanks for that Haurni.... now can someone finally give me a definition for losing virginity?!
and how long do you have to wait before you get it back?

I heard seven years. And here's a good answer for those who (would like to) believe that. I think it's from a teen mag but it's still a good answer.

 

[haurni]

.....

(oops... misread BR's post )

 

[blade_rocknut]

I stopped worrying about that some time ago on the grounds that worrying is not constructive. Thinking about it is a different thing, however, and (hopefully) leads to personal growth.

Good point; though it's tough to delineate what's constructive thought sometimes.

 

[haurni]

Damn! Caught with my edits down.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

You're nearly right and I could go through and correct a couple of small mistakes but you know what? You've made the effort and that says far more about you than any quibbles over details. You get three of these and a ((hug))

Understanding that there are issues over which people can be sensitive is the important thing.

I strive to understand my people. I may be cut and dry as far as who I am sexual and whatnot, but that isn't always the case. I try, I really do and I don't mind being told I'm wrong as to attain the right information- with civility. I myself try hard not to offend myself.

 

[stickygirl]

I strive to understand my people. I may be cut and dry as far as who I am sexual and whatnot, but that isn't always the case. I try, I really do and I don't mind being told I'm wrong as to attain the right information- with civility. I myself try hard not to offend myself.

I can see that and because people here examine every written word in detail then it's easy for the overall sense of what you're saying to get lost or misunderstood. Just you stick to your guns and I'm sure folks will see where your coming from

 

[Sasha69]

It's all just an illusion ...

Evining all

How, if at all, do you guys define your gender identity? I've had a nose around the boards and stories and have noticed many different expressions of the idea of gender; I'm curious to know how others define or view themselves. I see gender as something flexible and fluid, and it's interesting to see such diversity on this site.

What are your thoughts and opinions? Anybody else share the same views? I'm doing a study on the relationship between sexuality and gender identity, and would love to hear the thoughts of others on this subject.

Opinions would be gratefully received

I am happy being Bi. My 'gender' is male, 50+ yrs of living as one kinda burns that into ya I guess! But I think of myself, when it comes to sex, and sexuality, as being free to play and learn about what I'd like to be, or possibly even could be. And I could be 'wrong', don't know. Never been genetically tested to see just what my real biological footprint is. Could it be that I'm closer to the hormonal composition of a woman's body than a man's ? Don't know to much about that but have seen stories of people who go through life as male only to find out thru some 'fluke of nature' that you were supposed to be female. Even in the common lexicon, look at how we define ourselves. Male. Female. Not much of a spread is it? (no pun intended you dirty minded little sex monkeys! ) So, I am lucky to me mated with a female who appreciates that (she's a medic, so she gets a lot of this stuff) I am VERY attracted to the idea of 'playing' at being a woman. I like women. They are Sugary Sweet! But I also like men (more like a really good fresh pretzel). So, I guess I can just be happy with this little part of my life called sex. But I think a social constant that would do us all a lot of good to consider - What a person represents to you as they're 'gender', I believe, represents a good deal of how they see they're own soul. And we should respect that. And open doors for the elderly. And pu our shopping baskets on the floor at the self-check line when we're done. and obey the speed limit. In other words, good citizenship. And watching society 'evolving' regarding gender during my brief stay here on Earth, after 50 + yrs, I would never have supposed that there are now 'same sex' couples, and they are serving us, the citizen, on active duty in the US military! (They FINALLY got that one right! I retired from the military in that late 90's ) So who knows, ask me again in 20 yrs !

 

[haurni]

I sense that this discussion is dying, as most people would rather be reading 'where did you masturbate last', so I thought I'd look at where the conversation has taken us thus far and add a few observations of my own.

Humans are, genetically, programmed to be male (XY) or female (XX). Once in a while nature gets creative and we have someone who is intersex - some combination of both. Given that an intersex individual can mix and match at any or all of the levels of genetics or internal or external physiology, the answer to the OP's question of whether sex is fluid is obviously 'yes'. 'Sex', in practice, is clearly not binary. Conservatively, it is thought that about 1 or 2 in 1000 people are intersex, which is a lot. In the US, it could be the entire population of Miami, or Atlanta, or Sacramento, or maybe even Las Vegas.

"So nature doesn’t decide where the category of 'male' ends and the category of 'intersex' begins, or where the category of 'intersex' ends and the category of 'female' begins. Humans decide." - Intersex Society of North America

What we choose to call our gender is a somewhat different matter. Most people identify as males or females (and since trans people tend to do so as well, this changes nothing). Various cultures have a 'third sex' (which may include intersex and/or transgender people), and some countries are now allowing intersex and/or trans individuals to identify as 'None', 'Indeterminate', 'Unspecified' or 'Other'. 'Genderqueer' includes a variety of other self-described genders, including none or all. So self-identified gender can range anywhere from none through the binary M/F to in-between to 'all of the above'. While 'male' and 'female' still come with certain expectations ('baggage') and the behaviours associated with each may even have certain biological bases, gender is, overall, a mix of biological, psychological and social factors. As the OP states, gender is clearly flexible or fluid; I suggest that to deny this is to commit to being willfully ignorant.

We've also talked about sexual orientation and how that relates (or doesn't) to sex and gender. If anything, orientation is even more complicated than sex or gender, since it isn't necessarily tied to either of them and may vary with age and situation and may also be different from emotional or social preference. In addition to the 'binary' homo/heterosexual, the 'intermediate' bisexual, some people may be asexual. Others may self-identify in other ways, e.g. pansexual.

If anything, I think this should all encourage us to be what we want to be and find the labels that suit us best, rather than adopting ones that don't really fit because we're afraid of being seen as different. (I find it slightly ironic that the slogan of the US Army was, until recently, 'Be all you can be'. )

Feel free to disagree.

 

[stickygirl]

Post this to Wiki now

I think you've got it covered pretty well Haurni so unless anyone else raises something new then we can move to a vote.
Down the pub or back to yours for tea and biscuits?

 

[blade_rocknut]

No, but really; where *did* you masturbate last?

Could be relevant, ya know; if we delve into the curiosity of restroom gender assignments!

 

[haurni]

Down the pub or back to yours for tea and biscuits?

I'd rather a wee bit o' crumpet, missy.

 

[stickygirl]

No, but really; where *did* you masturbate last?

Could be relevant, ya know; if we delve into the curiosity of restroom gender assignments!

I'd rather a wee bit o' crumpet, missy.

Now you're both being silly
So Haurni... any plans to change your AV?

 

[haurni]

"Schilt describes gender panic as a deep, cultural fear, set off in this case when the 'naturalness' of a male-female gender binary is challenged."
http://news.uchicago.edu/article/20...gender-panic-study-finds#sthash.H8axRF75.dpuf

Doing Gender, Determining Gender: Transgender People, Gender Panics, and the Maintenance of the Sex/Gender/Sexuality System (abstract)

Doing Gender, Doing Heteronormativity: "Gender Normals," Transgender People, and the Social Maintenance of Heterosexuality (PDF)

"As many transmen move from being masculine (e.g., gender-nonconforming) women to gender-conforming men, their decisions to transition can be seen as a natural fit for someone who was viewed as doing femininity unsuccessfully. Many transmen also move from being gender nonconforming women who are assumed to be lesbians to gender-conforming men who are assumed to be heterosexual - a move that coworkers can justify as confirmation of the naturalness and desirability of a heteronormative gender system.
...
These comments demonstrate the power of gender attributions as, on one hand, these women see their colleagues as men because they look like men. However, when they think too much about their bodies - what they see as an authentic and unchangeable sexed reality - they are hesitant to include them in the category of man.
...
Women can accept transmen as men when doing masculine roles at work - heavy lifting, killing spiders - but not in sexualized relationships with female-bodied people.
...
In sexualized situations, women frame transmen as deceptive - tricking women into seemingly heterosexual relationships without the necessary biological marker of manhood.
...
Conversely, rather than policing transmen’s heterosexuality, heterosexual men encourage it by engaging them in sex talk about women. [One coworker, who avoided a lesbian colleague prior to her transition to male but not after, told the respondent] that he was uncomfortable with gays and lesbians. This disclosure reflects heteronormativity, as becoming a presumably heterosexual man can be viewed more positively than being a lesbian. While some transmen personally identify as gay or queer men, heteronormativity ensures that their coworkers imagine they are transitioning to become heterosexual men.​

​

 

[haurni]

Could be relevant, ya know; if we delve into the curiosity of restroom gender assignments!

http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/canada/2012/07/13/halifax_genderneutral_bathroom_signs_court_controversy/306706_10151893168530214_603753255njpg.jpeg.size.xxlarge.letterbox.jpeg

 

[Stella_Omega]

"Schilt describes gender panic as a deep, cultural fear, set off in this case when the 'naturalness' of a male-female gender binary is challenged."
http://news.uchicago.edu/article/20...gender-panic-study-finds#sthash.H8axRF75.dpuf

Doing Gender, Determining Gender: Transgender People, Gender Panics, and the Maintenance of the Sex/Gender/Sexuality System (abstract)

Doing Gender, Doing Heteronormativity: "Gender Normals," Transgender People, and the Social Maintenance of Heterosexuality (PDF)

"As many transmen move from being masculine (e.g., gender-nonconforming) women to gender-conforming men, their decisions to transition can be seen as a natural fit for someone who was viewed as doing femininity unsuccessfully. Many transmen also move from being gender nonconforming women who are assumed to be lesbians to gender-conforming men who are assumed to be heterosexual - a move that coworkers can justify as confirmation of the naturalness and desirability of a heteronormative gender system.
...
These comments demonstrate the power of gender attributions as, on one hand, these women see their colleagues as men because they look like men. However, when they think too much about their bodies - what they see as an authentic and unchangeable sexed reality - they are hesitant to include them in the category of man.
...
Women can accept transmen as men when doing masculine roles at work - heavy lifting, killing spiders - but not in sexualized relationships with female-bodied people.
...
In sexualized situations, women frame transmen as deceptive - tricking women into seemingly heterosexual relationships without the necessary biological marker of manhood.
...
Conversely, rather than policing transmen’s heterosexuality, heterosexual men encourage it by engaging them in sex talk about women. [One coworker, who avoided a lesbian colleague prior to her transition to male but not after, told the respondent] that he was uncomfortable with gays and lesbians. This disclosure reflects heteronormativity, as becoming a presumably heterosexual man can be viewed more positively than being a lesbian. While some transmen personally identify as gay or queer men, heteronormativity ensures that their coworkers imagine they are transitioning to become heterosexual men.​

​

yep, much of that corresponds in many ways with my experiences. I hang out with people who identify as queer, and kinky, so the common attitude doesn't much impact my personal life. But I doubt I will ever really engage with women as a "man." I don't care for heteronormative sex anyway.

 

[blade_rocknut]

http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/canada/2012/07/13/halifax_genderneutral_bathroom_signs_court_controversy/306706_10151893168530214_603753255njpg.jpeg.size.xxlarge.letterbox.jpeg

Indeed.

Though it's a separate topic, it's kind of a big deal for gender *bending* folks like me who get caught in the quandary of where to go pee in public...since we don't carry a card per se permitting us access to the "wrong" restrooms.