gay men have fag hags what do lesbians have?

[killallhippies]

a friend of mine( who is a lesbian) tried to tell me that the reason lesbians and straight men can't get along is because(unlike straight women and gay men) there is a sense of competition between the two that doesn't exist between sw/gm.

now, while i understand this, i have to wonder why. i have known a few lesbians who definitely did seem to view men in a competitive sense and even seemed to actively seek straight women who were currently involved in straight relationships(i was friends with one for awhile, but it didn't last. being friendly with me to fuck my sister aint cool especially when it was totally unnecessary. if my sister wanted to sleep with her or vice versa i could've cared less.) and i've met men who assumed that all lesbians are like that naturally, but i've never understood why.

anyone care to enlighten me?

also, i hope this post is clear. i haven't been sleeping well, so i hope it makes sense and doesn't come off as offensive.

 

[revolution724]

Some of my best friends are straight men. (It's true, in fact.)

I can only speak from my own experience.

In my experience, I have never wanted to take a straight woman away from a man, or, with few exceptions, wanted a straight woman at all. (Okay, the college roommate doesn't count, because I was too far back in the closet under the mothballs to know what was happening.) I want to be with someone who wants me, and I have deep respect for the boundaries of relationships - it would be out of character to want to risk hurting the third party.

Consequently, if I feel a sense of competition with men, which I don't consciously most of the time, it's more to do with their position of relative privilege, whether in social status, earnings, security, or political power.

In my experience, the times that I have had problems with maintaining friendships with straight men, it was because at some point, the male in question stopped looking at me as a fellow human being and started looking at me as a female and thus a potential object of desire. That sounds egotistical. I don't mean it that way. I'm not unusually good-looking or charming. But I've tried and failed to have close, companionate friendships with men and have time and again had them end because the guy developed a desire for me that I couldn't return.

That happened to me seven times. In exactly one of those cases, the friendship was re-established. Why? He had gotten into a long-term relationship with a girl whom he eventually married, and I came out. For a while, my rule had become "no socializing with straight men because they can't handle it and develop crushes on you." It's now "no socializing with straight SINGLE men."

 

[killallhippies]

Some of my best friends are straight men. (It's true, in fact.)

I can only speak from my own experience.

In my experience, I have never wanted to take a straight woman away from a man, or, with few exceptions, wanted a straight woman at all. (Okay, the college roommate doesn't count, because I was too far back in the closet under the mothballs to know what was happening.) I want to be with someone who wants me, and I have deep respect for the boundaries of relationships - it would be out of character to want to risk hurting the third party.

Consequently, if I feel a sense of competition with men, which I don't consciously most of the time, it's more to do with their position of relative privilege, whether in social status, earnings, security, or political power.

In my experience, the times that I have had problems with maintaining friendships with straight men, it was because at some point, the male in question stopped looking at me as a fellow human being and started looking at me as a female and thus a potential object of desire. That sounds egotistical. I don't mean it that way. I'm not unusually good-looking or charming. But I've tried and failed to have close, companionate friendships with men and have time and again had them end because the guy developed a desire for me that I couldn't return.

That happened to me seven times. In exactly one of those cases, the friendship was re-established. Why? He had gotten into a long-term relationship with a girl whom he eventually married, and I came out. For a while, my rule had become "no socializing with straight men because they can't handle it and develop crushes on you." It's now "no socializing with straight SINGLE men."

while i hate to admit it you do have a valid point. the only friendships i've had with lesbians are with lesbians i'm not attracted to sexually. of course, the crush thing can be overcome eventully, but it can put a heavy strain a platonic relationship until it happens.

 

[kbate]

I refuse to answer your question, being only in this thread to mock your non-truck pulling genitalia.

*points and laughs*

-------

I have nothing against straight men. I am not in competition with them for women, as the women I seek have absolutely zero interest in men.

I am a little intolerant of straight men, both those who tell me (and it is many) that they can "lick" my lesbianism, that I just haven't experienced the right man and those who are too empathetic with us, "Oh, I just think it is wonderful the way you two girls got together." Thank you but I know that and do not need you on my arm to say so.

And as for other lesbians? I cannot speak for them but some are going to try to get straight women just the same as straight men will try to get lesbians, some will succeed, some will not.

Is it not a standard behaviour for a person to befriend someone to meet another person? I see nothing wrong with that, it makes you a patsy, it doesn't make her evil (although perhaps a bit of a bitch).

I probably didn't answer or even help, but I was only here to laugh at your genitalia anyway.

 

[killallhippies]

I refuse to answer your question, being only in this thread to mock your non-truck pulling genitalia.

*points and laughs*

-------

I have nothing against straight men. I am not in competition with them for women, as the women I seek have absolutely zero interest in men.

I am a little intolerant of straight men, both those who tell me (and it is many) that they can "lick" my lesbianism, that I just haven't experienced the right man and those who are too empathetic with us, "Oh, I just think it is wonderful the way you two girls got together." Thank you but I know that and do not need you on my arm to say so.

And as for other lesbians? I cannot speak for them but some are going to try to get straight women just the same as straight men will try to get lesbians, some will succeed, some will not.

Is it not a standard behaviour for a person to befriend someone to meet another person? I see nothing wrong with that, it makes you a patsy, it doesn't make her evil (although perhaps a bit of a bitch).

I probably didn't answer or even help, but I was only here to laugh at your genitalia anyway.

damnit, you edited. and i'd say it makes someone a little bit more than a bitch to go after someone who is already attached regardless of sexuality. i would say it's mainly a perception thing though. i've only met one women who actually seemed to fit the straight girl corrupter type and she also happened to be more than a little crazy so she simply may have had something seriously wrong with her that made her want to play that role.

 

[John Doe]

Some of my best friends are straight men. (It's true, in fact.)

I can only speak from my own experience.

In my experience, I have never wanted to take a straight woman away from a man, or, with few exceptions, wanted a straight woman at all. (Okay, the college roommate doesn't count, because I was too far back in the closet under the mothballs to know what was happening.) I want to be with someone who wants me, and I have deep respect for the boundaries of relationships - it would be out of character to want to risk hurting the third party.

Consequently, if I feel a sense of competition with men, which I don't consciously most of the time, it's more to do with their position of relative privilege, whether in social status, earnings, security, or political power.

In my experience, the times that I have had problems with maintaining friendships with straight men, it was because at some point, the male in question stopped looking at me as a fellow human being and started looking at me as a female and thus a potential object of desire. That sounds egotistical. I don't mean it that way. I'm not unusually good-looking or charming. But I've tried and failed to have close, companionate friendships with men and have time and again had them end because the guy developed a desire for me that I couldn't return.

That happened to me seven times. In exactly one of those cases, the friendship was re-established. Why? He had gotten into a long-term relationship with a girl whom he eventually married, and I came out. For a while, my rule had become "no socializing with straight men because they can't handle it and develop crushes on you." It's now "no socializing with straight SINGLE men."

Being a man in this society is not all that privileged, trust me.

 

[killallhippies]

this is why i don't post serious threads here. if it aint about a sex act nobody pays a damned bit of attention.

 

[Queersetti]

this is why i don't post serious threads here. if it aint about a sex act nobody pays a damned bit of attention.

This thread got more replies than the one about how riding your bike made your lungs hurt, at least.

 

[neonflux]

I would beg to differ... (also I find this thread deeply related to sex)

Being a man in this society is not all that privileged, trust me.

I am willing to acknowledge that patriarchy wounds all of us - and I actually believe that in some ways it wounds men much more deeply than it does women. That said, just ask any woman who makes 60¢ to her male counterpart's $1.00 or who works twice as hard to be twice as good to get the same higher level promotion as her male counterpart, whether or not being a man in this society is privileged... Heck, have you read any of the stories posted in the group sex session? The imbalance plays itself out there in at least half of them...

OK, now onto the question of why lesbians and straight men aren't friends more often - in my experience, that isn't quite the case, but then again, while queer folk and straight folk still maintain separate (multiple) communities and social networks out here in San Francisco, based on my travels, my sense it that they're a lot more integrated and overlapping than in most other parts of the country, even NYC.

As to why there isn't the male equivalent of a fag hag (that's actually a term I hate, btw), I would suspect that it's much more motivated by general gender-based stuff than it is by some type of weird sexual competition - I would second the comments of other women here that I am not interested in establishing relationships with straight women.

I will say that among my dyke/dyke-identified-bi friends who are closer to my age (mid to late 40's) all of us would be suspicious about the sexual motivations of a man who wanted to hang with us all of the time (based as much perhaps on what we know of straight porn fantasies about girl-on-girl action as anything else).

However, I have known a couple of younger dyke circles that adopted a straight guy here or there who truly just enjoyed hanging out with them - somehow, I suspect this is related to the loosening of gender roles in general and the lessening of homophobia in particular but cannot really describe all of the social mechanisms involved...

~ Justine

 

[Samuelx]

Some lesbians are hostile to men. I know because I've met one who was in an Ivy league sorority and she was hostile to me simply because I was a man. She had no idea that I was a bisexual man who supports Gay & Lesbian Rights. I dont think all lesbians are man-haters but a good number of them are Misandrists. Misogyny is quite rare among gay men, by contrast. Gay guys are cool, in my book. I think people of any orientation or gender wont have a problem with the average gay male once they get to know him. The average lesbian ? I'm not so sure.

 

[revolution724]

Being a man in this society is not all that privileged, trust me.

There's plenty of research that says otherwise. One of the most salient characteristics of privilege is its invisibility to those who have it.

 

[Samuelx]

There aren't any privileges that come with being male anymore. If a woman attacks a man and the man goes to the police station to report, he will get laughed at or ignored by the cops. If a woman is attacked by a man and goes to the cops to report it, they will take her seriously.
Still think men are privileged ? If a woman decides to falsely accuse a man of raping her just for the hell of it, the cops will believe her. If a man claims innocence, they wont believe him. That's just how it is. Also, there are a lot more women than men in college. This means fewer men will get college degrees and this will affect tomorrow's job market. Still think men are privileged ? Hmmm, if you still do, What are you, DEFICIENT ?

 

[killallhippies]

I am willing to acknowledge that patriarchy wounds all of us - and I actually believe that in some ways it wounds men much more deeply than it does women. That said, just ask any woman who makes 60¢ to her male counterpart's $1.00 or who works twice as hard to be twice as good to get the same higher level promotion as her male counterpart, whether or not being a man in this society is privileged... Heck, have you read any of the stories posted in the group sex session? The imbalance plays itself out there in at least half of them...

OK, now onto the question of why lesbians and straight men aren't friends more often - in my experience, that isn't quite the case, but then again, while queer folk and straight folk still maintain separate (multiple) communities and social networks out here in San Francisco, based on my travels, my sense it that they're a lot more integrated and overlapping than in most other parts of the country, even NYC.

As to why there isn't the male equivalent of a fag hag (that's actually a term I hate, btw), I would suspect that it's much more motivated by general gender-based stuff than it is by some type of weird sexual competition - I would second the comments of other women here that I am not interested in establishing relationships with straight women.

I will say that among my dyke/dyke-identified-bi friends who are closer to my age (mid to late 40's) all of us would be suspicious about the sexual motivations of a man who wanted to hang with us all of the time (based as much perhaps on what we know of straight porn fantasies about girl-on-girl action as anything else).

However, I have known a couple of younger dyke circles that adopted a straight guy here or there who truly just enjoyed hanging out with them - somehow, I suspect this is related to the loosening of gender roles in general and the lessening of homophobia in particular but cannot really describe all of the social mechanisms involved...

~ Justine

i'd just like to point out that i used the term fag hag mainly for brevities sake, but also to draw some attention to the thread. it's also the reason i apologized at the end of the initial post.

 

[killallhippies]

Some lesbians are hostile to men. I know because I've met one who was in an Ivy league sorority and she was hostile to me simply because I was a man. She had no idea that I was a bisexual man who supports Gay & Lesbian Rights. I dont think all lesbians are man-haters but a good number of them are Misandrists. Misogyny is quite rare among gay men, by contrast. Gay guys are cool, in my book. I think people of any orientation or gender wont have a problem with the average gay male once they get to know him. The average lesbian ? I'm not so sure.

some are, it's true.

and not in a fun way. it's one of the reasons this subject has bothered me for awhile. i've known more than a few lesbians who seemed to hate me before i even said one word to them. why? i have my theories, but, really, god only knows.

 

[neonflux]

A different perspective...

Some lesbians are hostile to men. I know because I've met one who was in an Ivy league sorority and she was hostile to me simply because I was a man. She had no idea that I was a bisexual man who supports Gay & Lesbian Rights. I dont think all lesbians are man-haters but a good number of them are Misandrists. Misogyny is quite rare among gay men, by contrast. Gay guys are cool, in my book. I think people of any orientation or gender wont have a problem with the average gay male once they get to know him. The average lesbian ? I'm not so sure.

I absolutely agree that some lesbians are hostile to men - certainly in my generation there was a point in time when lesbian separatists decried even woman-to-woman vaginal penitration as imitative of "the patriarchy." And for years there have been absolutely ridiculous (in my mind) debates about whether or not to allow trans women into the Michigan Women's Festival just because they were born with penises.

Most of my queer women friends and acquaintances, by contrast, are not hostile and do have many male friends, queer and straight. Many of us, by the way, have nursed multiple male friends through HIV-related illnesses, holding their hands when they died. Its a network of women/lesbian friends right now that is taking care of one of our own - a gay man who is currently experiencing debilitating effects from Interferon treatments - when his male friends only occassionally come around to help. I have not always found the opposite to be true when a woman from our female network finds herself fighting breast cancer.

It's interesting, but when I compare how we les/bi women discuss our relationships with men to how my straight women friends discuss them, I would actually say I've heard a great deal more misandry among those who are hetero than homo-bi-queer.
Like you, I have also experienced discrimination from members of the opposite sex within our community, even though we should be the most open in this regard (male and female). I have a downstairs gay male neighbor who finds some way to spit at least a little mysoginistic venom everyday and the director of our health department here - a gay man - has never shown any interest or concern in women's health issues, is currently cutting support for women's services in order to preserve those for gay white men.

Perhaps as gender roles are changing, the presence of such sentiments is disappearing among younger queer men - I often suspect that the hostility some gay men have towards women is often a reaction to the homophobia they themselves experienced as children and adolescents.

Certainly, one can be supportive of and like men while hating patriarchy and patriarchal priviledge, and no, I'm not deficient - I believe it still exists because I experience it on a fairly regular basis (see comment about our health department above). Women still make much less for doing the same work as men, and have more difficulty advancing to the top levels in their professions. While my own abusive relationship was with a woman, the statistics indicate that a woman is still far more likely to be raped, to be abused in a domestic violence situation, and girls are far more likely to experience sexual harrassment while in school than are males. Overreaction to these statistics (as you describe in your post) is absolutely not justified, but neither does it erase the continuing existence of male priviledge in many arenas.

I am not trying to minimize the harm that living in a patriarchal system does to boys and men - as a sexuality educator who has done a lot of work with queer boys in the early stages of coming out, I see how painful their lives are because of it. The shame and pain that shapes society's hyperlimiting demands on men and often creates deep and secret wounds make my heart ache. In this regard, I would recommend reading the book "Real Boys: : Rescuing Our Sons From the Myths of Boyhood" by William Pollack, the reading of which completely changed the way I approached my work with youth, much for the better.

According to Aztec philosophy, a full human being, whether male of female, is not fully human until she or he can embrace both what is male and what is female within her/himself. For me, gaining maturity has involved learning to do just that and I am grateful to both the men and women in my life who have helped me take steps towards reaching that wholeness.

One of the things that is most fascinating to me in this discussion is that I doubt it could have ever occured in quite the same way on the general - vs. lgbt - boards. There is indeed a healing gender revolution in the works and I believe strongly that we are in the vanguard. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these issues with civility and openess.

 

[killallhippies]

and i've enjoyed your comments and agree that boys often get the short of the stick in certain ways without even knowing it. according to some we're not even allowed to be bi. it's either gay or straight with nothing inbetween. that tends to piss me off.

 

[neonflux]

i resemble that remark

and i've enjoyed your comments and agree that boys often get the short of the stick in certain ways without even knowing it. according to some we're not even allowed to be bi. it's either gay or straight with nothing inbetween. that tends to piss me off.

I certainly identify with the difficulties of being openly bi - isn't it amazing how the world continues to insist we choose sides, even though most pre-Christian cultures have always understood and even embraced the true fluidity of sexuality. I think younger women are lucky these days in that they are allowed more leeway in that regard (its even ok in some circles for younger lesbian women to sleep openly with the occasional man).

Do you get pressure from gay men? In my early days of stating my bi-ness, many lesbians tried to convince me that I was just "fence sitting" due to unresolved internalized homophobia, or would avoid me because they were convinced I was just experimenting and would eventually return to my life of heterosexual privilege. (I actually gave up for awhile and started to say I was a lesbian just to simplify things.) It's actually when I started to do some work for friends in the trans community that I became completely omfortable in openly stating my bi-ness (I am convinced that bi and trans folk of all sexual orientations have a great deal more in common with each other than we do with either straight or 6-on-the-Kinsey scale gay/les folks).

OH! and before I forget:

1) thanks for starting this thread
2) never took your use of the word "fag hag" as an indication of anything negative about you - just had to state my disapproval of the term itself for the record

 

[killallhippies]

I certainly identify with the difficulties of being openly bi - isn't it amazing how the world continues to insist we choose sides, even though most pre-Christian cultures have always understood and even embraced the true fluidity of sexuality. I think younger women are lucky these days in that they are allowed more leeway in that regard (its even ok in some circles for younger lesbian women to sleep openly with the occasional man).

Do you get pressure from gay men? In my early days of stating my bi-ness, many lesbians tried to convince me that I was just "fence sitting" due to unresolved internalized homophobia, or would avoid me because they were convinced I was just experimenting and would eventually return to my life of heterosexual privilege. (I actually gave up for awhile and started to say I was a lesbian just to simplify things.) It's actually when I started to do some work for friends in the trans community that I became completely omfortable in openly stating my bi-ness (I am convinced that bi and trans folk of all sexual orientations have a great deal more in common with each other than we do with either straight or 6-on-the-Kinsey scale gay/les folks).

OH! and before I forget:

1) thanks for starting this thread
2) never took your use of the word "fag hag" as an indication of anything negative about you - just had to state my disapproval of the term itself for the record

regarding your second paragraph: yes and no. the usual reaction is rolling their eyes and then ignoring me from that point on. it has lead to a very awkward relationship to gay men and has seriously curtailed my efforts to do more than just play around with other men. maybe it's just bad luck, but that's the way it's been for me.

and i've recieved pretty much the same reaction from lesbians. i had a boss( who i otherwise adored) who told me matter-of-factly that bisexuals don't exist. i do wonder if it's partly due to the fact that some gay and lesbian go through a false bisexual phase themselves before coming to the realization that they are gay. i don't know that, but i suspect it. i knew a few who did in my personal life.

and no problem and i didn't think you were too offended or you wouldn't posted.

 

[John Doe]

I am willing to acknowledge that patriarchy wounds all of us - and I actually believe that in some ways it wounds men much more deeply than it does women. That said, just ask any woman who makes 60¢ to her male counterpart's $1.00 or who works twice as hard to be twice as good to get the same higher level promotion as her male counterpart, whether or not being a man in this society is privileged... Heck, have you read any of the stories posted in the group sex session? The imbalance plays itself out there in at least half of them...

This patriarchy you speak of is fading if it ever existed, at least in the U.S. anyway.

On the average women actually earn about 70 cents to the male dollar, but I never said I condoned that either.

As to whether or not women have to do twice the work, that's not easily tracked because it's subjective.

Regarding the stories on Lit, that's fantasy, not reality.

There's plenty of research that says otherwise. One of the most salient characteristics of privilege is its invisibility to those who have it.

I'd like to see this research to which you refer. However, you seem to have misinterpreted my statement. I didn't say that men aren't privileged in American sosiety, I said they're not as privileged as you claim.

I've heard that argument numerous times. You could just as well apply it to female privilege. Though it's rather like telling a heathon that his disbelief in God is proof of His existence.

 

[BitterIchor]

The majority of my friends are straight men. I don't pursue any attached or non-lesbian women, therefore, there is no competition in that departement. Most of my friends probably don't even think of me as a woman, let alone a lesbian. When we hang out, the subject of sex or sexuality is rarely even touched upon. I guess you could say I'm one of the guys to them. At least that's how it's seemed and worked for the last 7-8 years. Maybe I'm just lucky to have ended up with great guys for friends, I don't know.

 

[BDisaster]

most of my friends are gay or bi...all my male friends, well they were straight in high school haha now theyre all gay. soooo most of my friends are gay

and straight men...well i hang out with some but i do tend to fall for straight girls more then anything else so i guess it might get a little dirty at some points lol

 

[killallhippies]

The majority of my friends are straight men. I don't pursue any attached or non-lesbian women, therefore, there is no competition in that departement. Most of my friends probably don't even think of me as a woman, let alone a lesbian. When we hang out, the subject of sex or sexuality is rarely even touched upon. I guess you could say I'm one of the guys to them. At least that's how it's seemed and worked for the last 7-8 years. Maybe I'm just lucky to have ended up with great guys for friends, I don't know.

i do tend to think of lesbians as just guys with vaginas, but that doesn't always work.