G.a.t.e.

[lisa123414]

Rather than threadjack, because these ideas were initiated from the “blonde, pretty and dumb” thread, I would like to initiate a discussion on educating children.

Gifted and Talented Education – In my school district, it means in elementary school they identify a select group, through testing in the second grade. Then they take those students out of class one day per week, in third through fifth grade and send them off to either another classroom, or another school. They do wonderful things, they have classrooms where there are no SOLs, no grades, enrichment on many levels. They are exposed to rocket science, robotics, fine arts, and other areas for which they normally cannot take the time in the regular classroom.

My problem is that I don’t like the kids being singled out. The district spends a lot of money so my kids can build a lego robot. The worst part is, they miss art class on the day they are gone.

So how do the gifted and talented coordinators decide, how to spend their resources?

For VM in particular, I get from the discussion, you teach a “normal” classroom, but your methods are exemplary. Would you want the kids “filtered,” for lack of a better word?

 

[Guest]

I love the gifted classes.

Our children have benefited in many, many ways, not in the least, socially.

It's far more than building a Lego rocket, or at least, it should be.

We had our children tested in kindergarten and placed immediately. They were both such early readers there was no other option.


Oh, and edited to add: Gifted classes fall under Special Ed category. Federal funding does pay for a great deal of that.

 

[lisa123414]

Sarah - thank you for replying. I do agree that the special classes do a lot for the kids. I worry that placement is getting political. Parents fight to get their kids into the classes, and I think there is something like one third of the kids placed into the classes. We cant be all that smart in my city, I think. I also worry that the kids get an elitist attitude.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Rather than threadjack, because these ideas were initiated from the “blonde, pretty and dumb” thread, I would like to initiate a discussion on educating children.

Gifted and Talented Education – In my school district, it means in elementary school they identify a select group, through testing in the second grade. Then they take those students out of class one day per week, in third through fifth grade and send them off to either another classroom, or another school. They do wonderful things, they have classrooms where there are no SOLs, no grades, enrichment on many levels. They are exposed to rocket science, robotics, fine arts, and other areas for which they normally cannot take the time in the regular classroom.

My problem is that I don’t like the kids being singled out. The district spends a lot of money so my kids can build a lego robot. The worst part is, they miss art class on the day they are gone.

So how do the gifted and talented coordinators decide, how to spend their resources?

For VM in particular, I get from the discussion, you teach a “normal” classroom, but your methods are exemplary. Would you want the kids “filtered,” for lack of a better word?

Along with my AV's panama, I wear a couple of hats. I teach in a classroom but it's not precisely "normal". In our district we encourage what is called "GATE clusters", meaning that children who qualify for the program should be in groups of not less than 5/classroom. Until you have a total of 10 GATE kids in a class, they shouldn't be split up. So, I have a GATE cluster.

Additionally, I am the GATE coordinator for the school and a member of the GATE steering committee for the district. For many years I've seen GATE education treated as the dreaded "more of the same" not the "differentiated" that the law expects. This is changing, now. One hour a week the 4-6 GATE kids meet with me. We explore. Each year is different. Last year we did an enormous project on American Folk Arts. In years past we have built toothpick bridges, studied ethnographic arts from around the world, studied the Infinite Series, all kinds of things. Also, the GATE kids produce the yearbook under the supervision of myself and my fifth grade counterpart. It's good enough that we compete nationally with it.

Next year, I'm going to give the kids the option of entering NaNoWriMo at the 20,000 word novella level. This will exempt them from all other writing projects in that month. All children need differentiation. GATE kids need it even more than the others.

 

[Guest]

Sarah - thank you for replying. I do agree that the special classes do a lot for the kids. I worry that placement is getting political. Parents fight to get their kids into the classes, and I think there is something like one third of the kids placed into the classes. We cant be all that smart in my city, I think. I also worry that the kids get an elitist attitude.

In Kansas they limit it to the top 3%. I know it's because of funding.

Gifted ed is supposed to be based on IQ test scores.

Elitist attitude, perhaps. But I have to wonder sometimes, what is wrong with aiming high? What is wrong with feeling proud about your high test scores? Why don't we celebrate that as much as we celebrate football and basketball athletes?

We should.

 

[rgraham666]

Nice to see things have improved.

When I went to school there were only two types of kids. Normal and stupid.

I wasn't normal.

 

[Guest]

Nice to see things have improved.

When I went to school there were only two types of kids. Normal and stupid.

I wasn't normal.

I haven't met a normal person in the AH yet.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I haven't met a normal person in the AH yet.

Yeah, ain't it grand?

 

[rgraham666]

In Kansas they limit it to the top 3%. I know it's because of funding.

Gifted ed is supposed to be based on IQ test scores.

Elitist attitude, perhaps. But I have to wonder sometimes, what is wrong with aiming high? What is wrong with feeling proud about your high test scores? Why don't we celebrate that as much as we celebrate football and basketball athletes?

We should.

Because one of the great myths is that simple,everyday people have a plain wisdom and insight. While intellectuals are head in the cloud dreamers.

Plus intellectuals often change things, and most people don't like change.

 

[Guest]

Yeah, ain't it grand?

Fuckin' A.

 

[lisa123414]

Yeah, well I suspect the AH is either gifted, or perhaps talented

Normal - no way!

 

[Guest]

Because one of the great myths is that simple,everyday people have a plain wisdom and insight. While intellectuals are head in the cloud dreamers.

Plus intellectuals often change things, and most people don't like change.

At yearly meetings about both kids Individual Education Plan we've been very upfront with certain things. For one, we kept our slightly uncoordinated daughter out of PE completely during middle school. She took robotics, extra math, creative writing, French - much better for her. She goes on to high school now, a year younger than everyone else, but with a few extra things under her belt. She'll survive.

For our son, we reiterated the concerns about forcing him to be in "group" learning activities in the regular ed classroom. Gifted kids hate that, and for good reason. They usually do all the work. If the group gets one grade, you bet they'll do all the work because they tend to have concerns about grades. We pressure the gifted coordinator to keep challenging him mathematically.

Administrators listen to us, we two teachers, both in the district, both not afraid to go in with both barrels. We know what is best for our children.

Gifted has been marvelous for both our kids. They are among peers. They are able to communicate better with these quirky, slightly goofy, sometimes geeky, smart kids. More power to 'em.

They are the future, you see. We should be putting all kinds of money into gifted programs. Where else are the doctors, engineers, scientists, discoverers going to come from? These same quirky, geeky, gifted kids.

 

[rgraham666]

They are the future, you see. We should be putting all kinds of money into gifted programs. Where else are the doctors, engineers, scientists, discoverers going to come from? These same quirky, geeky, gifted kids.

We'll be getting them from the same place we've been getting them for the last quarter century and more; India, Europe, China and Japan.

We're concentrating on the important things. Lawyers and MBAs.

 

[Guest]

We'll be getting them from the same place we've been getting them for the last quarter century and more; India, Europe, China and Japan.

We're concentrating on the important things. Lawyers and MBAs.

Stop it!

Bleah!

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Recently a genius appeared in my class. I can't describe her any other way. The best mathematician in the fifth grade (I had a 5//6 combo this year) was a third grader. She writes like a little angel, too and sings beautifully. Caring for this little one will keep me from retiring until I'm 65. This ticks me off a bit but has the district GATE supers celebrating. One must always be on the lookout for them, these little Profoundly Gifted ones. A normal teacher will only encounter one in an entire career and if you don't watch out, they will fade away from you and become invisible. I know, I know only too well . . .

 

[Stella_Omega]

The worst part is, they miss art class on the day they are gone.

So how do the gifted and talented coordinators decide, how to spend their resources?

From my experience, many of them make their decisions the same way anyone else does-- via whatever advertising material they've gotten most recently, vis lego robots.
I am all in favor of you marching into your principals office, to discuss the scheduling that makes your kids miss art class-- which is a very important developmental skill-builder in itself.

My suggestion is that art classes be flip-flopped with some other less-essential class each week,; If art is always wednesday, let it be wednesday one week and thurdsay the next. so that the GATE kids can have at least half of the class the other kids are getting.

And I'm with SSS, on elitism. Our kids can be proud of their sports abilities, and no one accuses them of acting like a snob (although I have on several occasions).

 

[lisa123414]

Sarahh - I don't want to sound bitter, but every time I have gone up against the school administrators I was shot down. My sister teaches in Michigan and has been able to push the system to do what she needs. It takes someone who is familiar with the system to identify and see to the needs of gifted kids in our area. Most of the attention is now going to making sure the school as a whole passes the federal funding tests. Many of the teachers I know are disheartened. I had to pull one son from public school completely - I keep thinking how fortunate that we were able to do this, staying in public school would have harmed him.

 

[Guest]

Sarahh - I don't want to sound bitter, but every time I have gone up against the school administrators I was shot down. My sister teaches in Michigan and has been able to push the system to do what she needs. It takes someone who is familiar with the system to identify and see to the needs of gifted kids in our area. Most of the attention is now going to making sure the school as a whole passes the federal funding tests. Many of the teachers I know are disheartened. I had to pull one son from public school completely - I keep thinking how fortunate that we were able to do this, staying in public school would have harmed him.

I agree completely. We are fortunate because we have learned the system from the inside out. They should have never told us the rules because we exploit them ruthlessly.

No Child Left Behind has fucked up so many school districts - think how badly the price of gas has affected the country and you have the same damn thing.

Thank you, Shrub. Hopefully, NCLB will be gone in a few months. Really. It will not survive a Democratic president.

School districts are running scared. Not to provide a quality education, no. But to make certain the kids can score high enough on the specific tests. Many teachers are leaving the field entirely.

It's ludicrous.

 

[lisa123414]

Because one of the great myths is that simple,everyday people have a plain wisdom and insight.

this is a big part of my problem. They can test lots of things, but they cannot test for potential. They cannot test for leadership. I know kids who are spectacular in so many ways, but don't do well on tests or in school.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Thank you, Shrub. Hopefully, NCLB will be gone in a few months. Really. It will not survive a Democratic president.

I really wish I could believe that but the teacher's unions break their hearts supporting Democratic candidates and then gets slapped aside because we can be "counted on". It makes me sick.

 

[Guest]

this is a big part of my problem. They can test lots of things, but they cannot test for potential. They cannot test for leadership. I know kids who are spectacular in so many ways, but don't do well on tests or in school.

YES.

No written test will show that.

But ya see, NCLB insists that a written test will show the kids are learning, and teachers are teaching, and school districts are working.

Bullshit.

I've taken kids who've done nothing in anyone else's class, damn near flunking, and put them in charge of certain things. No one to cover their ass, they were in charge. Those kids look at me, square their shoulders and sit taller. And they do the damn job.

Be it light board or special effects coordinator or student director - whatever.

They do it.

 

[lisa123414]

So how do we get the teachers in there, who will challenge all the kids? I was educated in a state that is one of the highest for teacher pay. I am raising my kids in one of the lowest. I feel this is not unrelated to my frustration. I want to support the public schools, but sometimes my experience is beyond the pale.

 

[only_more_so]

I was in Gifted and Talented programs for years. Of course, in my county a large part of the reason for the G&T program was actually about legal busing. The demographics of the county we pretty different north to south, with the southern part being nearly inner city and the northern part being suburbs. So the program was situation in a nearly all black school, and ended up being 90% white. So the schools got their quotas and everyone was happy. (BTW, these weren't bus the kids for a day, it was full time, regular classes. But the only time the G&T kids mixed with the other kids ended up being gym class)

But that political bullshit aside...

I think the concept is correct, but the execution is total crap. There is no reason the smarter kids should get more money for computers, science classes etc, than the other students. They also shouldn't get more oppurtunities than the other students. This fosters elitism in the Gifted and a sense of being ignored in those left behind (if they are smart enough to realize what's happening ).

But the concept is correct. Smart kids benefit more from being around other smart children. They can also learn more by not having the class slowed down to the pace of the dumbest student. The normal students also benefit from not having the smartest children in the classroom. And the dumbest kids in the class could also do to have separate time to learn at a pace more suited to them.

Of course, you can never create enough gradations on a local level to optimize the education. But having a few tiers can help.

The biggest problem is the social development (edit: The biggest problem for most smart people is relating to and getting along with normal people). But with the social upheaval caused by the internet, txt messaging, etc, that might not matter for too long.

 

[Guest]

So how do we get the teachers in there, who will challenge all the kids? I was educated in a state that is one of the highest for teacher pay. I am raising my kids in one of the lowest. I feel this is not unrelated to my frustration. I want to support the public schools, but sometimes my experience is beyond the pale.

Support the gifted program, supplement the arts at home.

Anything extra you can do will help your children.

I'm too drunk to think right now - - tomorrow I'll be able to be more coherent.

 

[Liar]

I think the concept is correct, but the execution is total crap. There is no reason the smarter kids should get more money for computers, science classes etc, than the other students. They also shouldn't get more oppurtunities than the other students. This fosters elitism in the Gifted and a sense of being ignored in those left behind (if they are smart enough to realize what's happening ).

They are. Or at least, I was.

Being not labelled gifted very much equalled being labelled not gifted. Nobody said it of course, but in my mind, it was obvious that my best effort wasn't good enough. And I really did try my very best, up until that point. When most of the kids in my class that I connected with began to have a life on the other side of an arbitrary fence, when we couldn't talk about what we'd done in school anymore, and instead hearing tales of exciting and interresting fun I wasn't allowed to have, I lost all steam and began to underachieve in class.

Took the teachers and my parents about two years to notice something was wrong. And their immediate solution was to put me in Stupid Class (no, it wasn't called that, I can't remember the correct name, but that's what the kids called it, you get the point). Thank god my parents had the audacity to tell them to take that idea and shove it, and hired me a private tutor that they really couldn't afford (we weren't exactly rich). I was back on track in time for 7th grade. From then on I kept studying ambitiously, and did well, but still never excelled in anything.

I probably have the most intellectually advanced job of all my former school mates, including the "gifted" ones. Except one who is a frickin genius and would have been a rocket scientist (yep, he is) with or without priviliged classes. Because I learned that success is 90% about transpiration.

Meh. Whatever. Just wanted to add a perspective from the implied "not gifted" crowd.

It has given me the position that if GATE-classes or it's equivalence takes anything (resources, self esteem, purpose) away from those who have to work through school instead of just slide, the whole idea needs to be thoroughly scrutinized.