G.a.t.e.

[Guest]

<snip>

Meh. Whatever. Just wanted to add a perspective from the implied "not gifted" crowd.

It has given me the position that if GATE-classes or it's equivalence takes anything (resources, self esteem, purpose) away from those who have to work through school instead of just slide, the whole idea needs to be thoroughly scrutinized.

It doesn't take money from general ed. Special ed is a completely different category. Would you also say that too much money is spent on the truly disabled? In my school there are 6 kids in wheelchairs and many kids who qualify for complete disability, and yet they find the funds to keep them in school.

And how much money is spent on athletics? That takes loads of money away from the kids who don't (or can't) play.

But in the U. S. these days we are all being encouraged to refer less and less kids for gifted testing, anyway. Need to spend all that extra money on No Child Left Behind. Extra classes, extra tutoring sessions, extra practice tests, blah blah blah. Right now in the U.S. the bulk of all educational monies is being spent on the "average" or on the "bubble" kids. Those are the ones who are just barely poised to pass/fail the tests. Meanwhile we've seen scores go down across every student group in science and social studies, areas not covered by NCLB.

But as to the gifted, do you know how many teachers are content to allow a gifted or high achiever to just sit in class without doing anything extra?

Are we truly attempting to meet the needs of every child?

Being gifted doesn't mean sliding through school. But that's often the perception.

"They're gifted, they'll get the lesson.
They're gifted, they don't need extra help.
They're gifted, if they get done early they can just sit for twenty minutes while I work with the kids who really need the help.
They're gifted, so if I group a couple of smart kids with a couple of the kids who are clueless I know the smart kids will get them through the activity."

When kids are pulled out of class for gifted it should benefit everyone. That gives the teacher more time to spend with the kids who really need the help on the lesson. Additionally, at the middle school level there is a separate class for it, it takes the place of Reading. No more pulling out.

I was thrilled to be the advanced reading class as a kid. I was reading circles around half the kids, and to be forced to sit with a group of slow readers and painfully get through something I'd read years earlier? Ridiculous. What a waste of time and effort.

No wonder so many gifted kids act up in the regular ed room. Besides the fact some of them are pains, some are truly bored.

I've taught for a long time and I've seen the results of gifted/non-gifted education as these kids go through high school. There's no guarantee as to future success, something with which I've happily shared with them. You'll get out of school what you put into it.

But it's damn criminal to not push kids as far as they can go. And past.

Anyway.

 

[cloudy]

I was in the gifted program the minute I started school. It's early right now, but I'll be back with some thoughts.

 

[rgraham666]

I was thrilled to be the advanced reading class as a kid. I was reading circles around half the kids, and to be forced to sit with a group of slow readers and painfully get through something I'd read years earlier? Ridiculous. What a waste of time and effort.

The first time I ever received any discipline was in Grade One.

I was reading a Grade Eight science textbook that I'd pulled from the bookshelf next to me rather than "Look Jane, look! See Spot Run!"

 

[Guest]

The first time I ever received any discipline was in Grade One.

I was reading a Grade Eight science textbook that I'd pulled from the bookshelf next to me rather than "Look Jane, look! See Spot Run!"

And so now you read, "Fly, Georges, Fly! See Diana Come!"

Or something.

 

[rgraham666]

Laughing.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Sarah understands because she's in the profession. Rob understands from experience. 20% of all high school drop outs are GATE. And remember that when properly identified, they only make up 2-3% of the total population. Are you getting the picture, people?

It gets worse when you enter the rarified world of the Profoundly Gifted who only make up .1%. That's one in a thousand. Either they just get bored and go away or they very early figure out how to get by with the least possible effort.

Everyone else calls it Gifted, as though it was some sort of reward. Sorry, but those of us within don't use that term among ourselves. We call it Cursed! It's a diagnosis, my friends, a diagnosis.

 

[rgraham666]

I've often found my intelligence to be a curse.

It keeps me from doing things 'properly' and our society is big on propriety.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I've often found my intelligence to be a curse.

It keeps me from doing things 'properly' and our society is big on propriety.

Mmmm-hm!

 

[Guest]

Sarah understands because she's in the profession. Rob understands from experience. 20% of all high school drop outs are GATE. And remember that when properly identified, they only make up 2-3% of the total population. Are you getting the picture, people?

It gets worse when you enter the rarified world of the Profoundly Gifted who only make up .1%. That's one in a thousand. Either they just get bored and go away or they very early figure out how to get by with the least possible effort.

Everyone else calls it Gifted, as though it was some sort of reward. Sorry, but those of us within don't use that term among ourselves. We call it Cursed! It's a diagnosis, my friends, a diagnosis.

I've often found my intelligence to be a curse.

It keeps me from doing things 'properly' and our society is big on propriety.

Mmmm-hm!

It is indeed a diagnosis. I remember telling my parents at the beginning of all of this that it would have been far easier to have kids who hadn't tested so high.

Of course, both our kids have Asperger's syndrome, and also ADHD, so there are other issues.

We have to laugh with our son, though. He is a challenge at times, despite the varying medications we try to help him gain control. But his math scores lead the pack at his school. No matter how much of a challenge he becomes, they really need him for the damn tests.

Daughter is adapting, maturing, and is learning ways to organize without meds. But they are still necessary for her, too.

We keep a close eye on the meds situation with a really good child psych. He suggested a private school to constantly challenge them. We had daughter in a non-religious private school at first. Bunch of rich white kids.

We're white, but certainly not rich. And we wanted her to have a more normal educational experience, NOT an elitist one.

The switch from private to public was rough on her but she managed. Thankfully she found buddies in gifted class right away. She didn't know how to relate to anyone else.

There is no single answer for this situation, unfortunately.

 

[cloudy]

some thoughts:

When you are far above average in intelligence, you realize it. Other kids realize it, too, and tend to treat you as "weird." There's nothing wrong with letting these kids feel a little special, or as someone else put it, become "elitest" (I hate that word). It balances out the not normal treatment they receive from other kids, which isn't pleasant, believe me.

I can remember purposely blowing tests so that I would be seen as "normal." Wouldn't it have been better for me to have used my intelligence, instead of trying to hide it?

The gifted program I was in taught me valuable study skills that have helped me throughout my life. When I was with JCPenney, I completed their "one year management training program" in six months, and could have finished sooner, except that my trainer kept telling me to slow down.

I was taking college courses in sixth grade, which kept me from becoming totally bored and disillusioned with school. Who knows? Maybe it kept me from becoming one of those that dropped out.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Then this is for you, Cloudy, and all the rest of the "misfits" here at Lit and especially at AH. If one of the major reasons I feel so at home here, vanilla whitebread guy that I am otherwise, is that I'm finally in a place where I can carry on an intelligent conversation with others as uninhibited as I am, then I feel I owe it.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/1volupturary_manque/peacepipe.jpg

 

[Katyusha]

One of the problems I see with NOT singling out gifted children for programs such as this is that they can get very bored with regular classwork, and then their grades begin to slip and their attitudes take a downward spiral.

I was in GATE when I was in elementary school. We were taught to think in a different way than regular education would teach us. Instead of only knowing conventional methods of solving an problem, be it a puzzle, a math question, whatever, we learned how to think creatively, see a bigger picture, and come up with a different solution than what would normally be required in a regular classroom. And despite being gone one day a week, we never really had much trouble keeping up with our regular work.

I honestly do think that these types of programs are necessary. I get worried when people say they don't like children being singled out for this, that or the other because I think children need to know that despite all the equality we're trying to foster in this country, two people standing right next to each other are not going to be equal in every way. They are not going to be equally intelligent, equally eloquent, equally gifted in one area or another...

 

[voluptuary_manque]

One of the problems I see with NOT singling out gifted children for programs such as this is that they can get very bored with regular classwork, and then their grades begin to slip and their attitudes take a downward spiral.

I was in GATE when I was in elementary school. We were taught to think in a different way than regular education would teach us. Instead of only knowing conventional methods of solving an problem, be it a puzzle, a math question, whatever, we learned how to think creatively, see a bigger picture, and come up with a different solution than what would normally be required in a regular classroom. And despite being gone one day a week, we never really had much trouble keeping up with our regular work.

I honestly do think that these types of programs are necessary. I get worried when people say they don't like children being singled out for this, that or the other because I think children need to know that despite all the equality we're trying to foster in this country, two people standing right next to each other are not going to be equal in every way. They are not going to be equally intelligent, equally eloquent, equally gifted in one area or another...

Or equally happy or equally well-adjusted, whatever that may mean. The identified Gifted have higher rates of emotional disturbance, divorce and suicide than their "normal" peers.

People keep coming back to the "elitism" of it all as though we are doing our children a favor by attending to their intellectual needs and putting them together so that they have a support group that prevents isolation. I really want to reach down under the keyboard for my ax handle and start swinging. "Special Ed" is "Special Ed" and Sarahh is dead right. Would you deny a paraplegic her wheelchair? Would you deny a cerebral palsy victim his padded helmet? Would you deny Stephen Hawking his vocal decoder? Just what is the problem with giving children the environment that they need?

 

[rgraham666]

It costs money. That means higher taxes.

People don't like higher taxes. Some people don't like taxes at all. Especially when it goes to 'those people' (sneer) who aren't worthy for what ever reason.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

It costs money. That means higher taxes.

People don't like higher taxes. Some people don't like taxes at all. Especially when it goes to 'those people' (sneer) who aren't worthy for what ever reason.

No, it requres a different attitude. It doesn't cost any more in cash for Gifted programs, it costs more in thought and effort. That's the teachers', the administrators and the Educational Beaurocracy's problem. Quit doing what has been since before Thomas Dewey, stop jumping on every "feel good" bandwagon that comes along and stop thinking of yourself as the Sage on the Stage. Give the kids tasks that they can use to prove themselves. Then provide them the resources to find out about things. That's all. Just get rid of the damned worksheets and an expectation that everyone has to be at the same place at the same time. It works.

 

[Iamcanadian28]

I went though the gifter program as well (in Canada of course). I actually found it just an unbelievably boring as my normal classes. I also was identified as Hyperactive (similar to ADHD). My days in class consisted of goofing around, occiasionally reading the material coasting as much as possible with very little work effort required and then writing tests and getting almost perfect marks.

I was one of those who challenged myself enough on my own, that I stayed interested enough in school to not drop out. Most of my learning was done by myself and when it came to classroom discussions, I would add things to the discussions that none of the other students had a clue how I knew it.

The gifted program for me was too regimented, it was like a regular class just with more advanced material. It wasn't the least bit interesting. In fact, the only time I gained from it was in high school when they had a gifted class that had an autonomous project. I could actually do things for school that interested me. Not what they thought I should be doing.

I also have the other side of the scale. My youngest son will be starting school soon and he had Down Syndrome. So I get to see both sides of the special needs area. It always amazes me how many resources their are for the slower kids, but not for the exceptional ones.

 

[Guest]

No, it requres a different attitude. It doesn't cost any more in cash for Gifted programs, it costs more in thought and effort. That's the teachers', the administrators and the Educational Beaurocracy's problem. Quit doing what has been since before Thomas Dewey, stop jumping on every "feel good" bandwagon that comes along and stop thinking of yourself as the Sage on the Stage. Give the kids tasks that they can use to prove themselves. Then provide them the resources to find out about things. That's all. Just get rid of the damned worksheets and an expectation that everyone has to be at the same place at the same time. It works.

Worksheets! Bleah!

My drama class has been an amazing experience, I have to say.

Brilliant kids - many gifted, not all - but all of them creative and so damned excited about doing something different from the norm.

We read classic plays. We wrote our own. We went wild with improvisation. We did physical acting. We concentrated on emotions. We crawled around backstage and learned about lighting systems, sound systems, set design and construction.

They kept me on my toes. They needed new materials and new challenges constantly.

I would take a brief amount of time to introduce the next assignment, be it new scripts to act out, new topics to write from, a new acting game, whatever, and generally I'd select groups (though once in a great while I'd let them choose their own) and then off they'd go into separate corners to get busy.

The principal would always walk through my room (huge room - doors at both ends) in the middle of this organized chaos.

Noise level - high. Creativity - max. Learning levels - impressive.

She knew it was productive chaos.

And all these kids scored very high on their reading/writing assessments.

How could they not?

 

[only_more_so]

Why do so many people insist on shaking their fist at fate, gnashing their teeth and proclaiming themselves cursed? Being smart isn't a curse. The curse is what you fail to do with it.

 

[Guest]

Why do so many people insist on shaking their fist at fate, gnashing their teeth and proclaiming themselves cursed? Being smart isn't a curse. The curse is what you fail to do with it.

Isn't that what we've been saying?

 

[Emperor_Nero]

Isn't that what we've been saying?

The real problem are GATE programs that are anything but talented themselves. I was put in a program that did very little, but my oldest daughter went into one that was absolutely horrible.

She was tested and placed in first grade because she was becoming a disruption -- as she thought everyone should be done with their work and available to talk if she was done. Things went well for the first several years, but then a staff change put a new teacher in charge of the GATE program. He did a great unit on WWII -- as long as you think it OK that he was teaching that Roosevelt died after the end of the war and the Japanese surrendered before the Germans. She called him on it and I got to spend three different afternoons in the Principals office explaining that the teacher was an idiot and had no place teaching a gifted class.

From there she went to a high school with NO GATE program at all. Fortunately, she had high enough scores to qualify to take the ACT in 5th grade and get into the Center for Talent Development at Northwestern. Hauling her up there was a pain in the ass pretty much every Saturday for classes, but it was well worth it. Also was fortunate in that there were a few teachers at the high school that I knew who recognized her for what she was and helped me push the right buttons and pull the right strings to make things work well for her.

And before you say put her in private school, I was in a fairly remote area and there weren't any better options. We made the best of what we had.

Oddly enough, after all of this, now she wants to be a teacher -- she figures she couldn't do any worse than many she has come across as a student

 

[Elianna]

I think one of the problems with gifted education, is that just like Special Education, teachers need to know "how" to teach these kids. There are very few teachers who really know how to reach this population. And once again we're back to funding.

As a secondary teacher, you find that your gifted kids have gone one way or the other:

1. They do nothing. They barely pass. They read Robert Jordan while you're lecturing in class... but don't give a crap about school. They're so bored out of their minds, they've been doing this for 9 years and it hasn't gotten any better. Why bother.

2. They're in band, drama or choir, they take AP classes, sometimes they're in student government sometimes they struggle socially.

I agree that we don't offer enough opportunities for our gifted kids, but in my state it's all a money issue. (Don't forget that AZ is the 48th lowest state for education funding.)

In elementary school I was always in a gifted group of students. We were writers, mathematicians, we competed nationally with other groups of gifted kids. When I got to junior high, there was nothing of the sort. I started coasting.

By the time I was in high school, I decided to stop going as much as possible. I had far better things to do with my time than sit through stupid, boring, classes, even AP. My junior year I missed 36 days, but they couldn't drop me, I was ranked #4 in a class of 400. I never learned to work for anything.

Even in college I've never had to "work" much to get the good grades. Procrastinating until the night before a 30 page paper is due... no problem.

Do I think my path would have been different if I had still been in gifted programs? Maybe. All I know was that I was underchallenged and was the kid who said "Fuck it" (though I still maintained all my A's because it was easy).

I have already made the committment to myself that if I have children in AZ, they will go to private school and get gifted education if they show the ability. I will not have them sitting around bored out of their minds because they aren't challenged.

 

[only_more_so]

Isn't that what we've been saying?

Not really. Reading this thread has been depressing me. I've discarded a half dozen posts to this thread because of what they say and what they fail to say.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned directly, although a number of posters have mentioned it in passing, is the importance of parental involvement. To me, the government's responsibility is to ensure that every child has a certain minimum education. If you want your gifted child to reach his/her full potential then take the responsibility onto yourself. Sure, in an ideal world every child would be taught to their potential, but this isn't an ideal world.

 

[amicus]

An excellent and interesting thread, thank you, Lisa and Sweets, et al...

Being my usual cantankerous self, (what else could I be?), I would like to prompt beyond the practical, beyond the political and beyond the personal and consider that rarified atmosphere of the theoretical, the 'what if' category and see what happens.

A few caveats, if I may; one, that of a long held concept of 'equalizing all', and another of the 'elitist' category reserved for some intellectuals.

I do understand, from long exposure to the complaints of school officials, the utter frustration in attempting to apply mass, mandated education to an often unwilling public, both child and adult.

I am also cognizant of the generic mantra that 'education is of the utmost importance', in any society, but I question the accompanying corollary, 'at any cost'.

It is not quite the theme of the 'Impossible Dream' thread of recent, but considering all the factors a modern public school is faced with, it does seem an unreachable goal.

What if, just for the sake of conversation, what if there were no tax funded cathedrals of education? What if your property taxes were eliminated, (both property owners and renters would benefit), and you were not 'forced' to educate yourself or your children by a benign big brother?

Where then, would formal education turn? Would half or more of the population just ignore education for their offspring?

I love it when you folks actually acknowledge IQ and Bell Curves and Elitists and those pesky intellectual artists, musicians and rocket scientists, that few doubt are essential to spur the ability of mankind to reach higher and farther.

These TAG or GATE children you refer to, are nothing new to the species, they have been being born forever. And I can sense the sincere frustration in the words of many as you attempt to deal with just how to 'group them', so that they will be offered the 'social skills' you still maintain as essential.

I have mentioned previously, so it will come as no surprise to most, that I fatherer eight children and have a herd of grandmonsters. Not all of them were brilliant and handsome as I am, (grins) some were clever and beautiful like their assorted mothers.(stuck in a rut, I yam, I yam, or was...)

You can see the Mendelian follow up, like peas in a pod, or fruit flies, in succeeding generations too, and sometimes the results are amazing and unexpected.

Although I have great respect for the sincerity of those in the teaching profession who are doing their utmost to achieve that impossible dream you are associated with, I want to give you fair warning that I am going to return to beating my usual drum, so you can stop reading now if you wish.

The most important thing I have concluded, through observation and thought about these many kids and grandkids, is a continuing confirmation of a basic theme and premise I adhere to: that the essential defining characteristic applying to homo sapiens, is the unique individuality of each.

To do a quick boil and condensation; they each must be treated and respected as individuals, not part of a group for their own self esteem and identity.

You cannot accomplish that in the conveyor belt warehouse of public education no matter how sincere, how dedicated or how well funded, it is a contradiction in terms.

I am not a practical man, thus my 'practical' daughter chides me, I have always been a dreamer and a theoretist, so you all have to solve the problems, I just identify them and leave you with a 'what if?'

Still, a thoughtful and delightful thread on this early Sunday...now back to my garden and my grumping about the weather, Global Warming no doubt!

Amicus...

 

[Guest]

Not really. Reading this thread has been depressing me. I've discarded a half dozen posts to this thread because of what they say and what they fail to say.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned directly, although a number of posters have mentioned it in passing, is the importance of parental involvement. To me, the government's responsibility is to ensure that every child has a certain minimum education. If you want your gifted child to reach his/her full potential then take the responsibility onto yourself. Sure, in an ideal world every child would be taught to their potential, but this isn't an ideal world.

It takes parents to be strong advocates for their children. Always.

And they never take that into account when they mention testing either. NCLB is quick to punish teachers and schools but nothing is ever said about student motivation and parental support.

 

[Guest]

An excellent and interesting thread, thank you, Lisa and Sweets, et al...

Being my usual cantankerous self, (what else could I be?), I would like to prompt beyond the practical, beyond the political and beyond the personal and consider that rarified atmosphere of the theoretical, the 'what if' category and see what happens.

A few caveats, if I may; one, that of a long held concept of 'equalizing all', and another of the 'elitist' category reserved for some intellectuals.

I do understand, from long exposure to the complaints of school officials, the utter frustration in attempting to apply mass, mandated education to an often unwilling public, both child and adult.

I am also cognizant of the generic mantra that 'education is of the utmost importance', in any society, but I question the accompanying corollary, 'at any cost'.

It is not quite the theme of the 'Impossible Dream' thread of recent, but considering all the factors a modern public school is faced with, it does seem an unreachable goal.

What if, just for the sake of conversation, what if there were no tax funded cathedrals of education? What if your property taxes were eliminated, (both property owners and renters would benefit), and you were not 'forced' to educate yourself or your children by a benign big brother?

Where then, would formal education turn? Would half or more of the population just ignore education for their offspring?

I love it when you folks actually acknowledge IQ and Bell Curves and Elitists and those pesky intellectual artists, musicians and rocket scientists, that few doubt are essential to spur the ability of mankind to reach higher and farther.

These TAG or GATE children you refer to, are nothing new to the species, they have been being born forever. And I can sense the sincere frustration in the words of many as you attempt to deal with just how to 'group them', so that they will be offered the 'social skills' you still maintain as essential.

I have mentioned previously, so it will come as no surprise to most, that I fatherer eight children and have a herd of grandmonsters. Not all of them were brilliant and handsome as I am, (grins) some were clever and beautiful like their assorted mothers.(stuck in a rut, I yam, I yam, or was...)

You can see the Mendelian follow up, like peas in a pod, or fruit flies, in succeeding generations too, and sometimes the results are amazing and unexpected.

Although I have great respect for the sincerity of those in the teaching profession who are doing their utmost to achieve that impossible dream you are associated with, I want to give you fair warning that I am going to return to beating my usual drum, so you can stop reading now if you wish.

The most important thing I have concluded, through observation and thought about these many kids and grandkids, is a continuing confirmation of a basic theme and premise I adhere to: that the essential defining characteristic applying to homo sapiens, is the unique individuality of each.

To do a quick boil and condensation; they each must be treated and respected as individuals, not part of a group for their own self esteem and identity.

You cannot accomplish that in the conveyor belt warehouse of public education no matter how sincere, how dedicated or how well funded, it is a contradiction in terms.

I am not a practical man, thus my 'practical' daughter chides me, I have always been a dreamer and a theoretist, so you all have to solve the problems, I just identify them and leave you with a 'what if?'

Still, a thoughtful and delightful thread on this early Sunday...now back to my garden and my grumping about the weather, Global Warming no doubt!

Amicus...

Ami, I think hell hath just frozen over, but I agree.

And for the reasons you've stated is why exceptional children need, at times, a separate learning experience in order to reach their full potential.