Fulfilling Needs....

[kaycee217]

Again, does it matter? It could be anything that makes me feel fulfilled. It could be as simple as being touched more, to having a completely different sexual partner. If I feel as if there is something missing in my life, that I need, want, desire, crave, (call it what you will), then why is it so wrong to find someone to fulfill that need?

But fulfilling that "need" may not be worth the possible costs.

Take a "conventional" marriage. Do you think it's right for a spouse to cheat just because they have this desire that's going unfulfilled? Most of the time I do not believe it's ok to cheat. But I've recently learned that maybe, just maybe it's at least justified sometimes.

On the one hand, life can be tough sometimes and we need to just deal with it. But like you've recognized, we have every right to do what makes us happy.

I'm not saying it's wrong to fulfill our desires, but we can't always have our cake and eat it to.

 

[tanru]

Hi. Just dropping into the middle of this; hope that's okay.

Take a "conventional" marriage. Do you think it's right for a spouse to cheat just because they have this desire that's going unfulfilled? Most of the time I do not believe it's ok to cheat.

It's clearly the 'cheating' aspect that's the problem, as you say; it's the betrayal of trust that causes the problems. In a 'nonconventional' marriage, both partners understand and agree to what's going on, so there's no cheating involved. A much healthier outlook, I think.

There's a book about the myth of monogamy, entitled -- appropriately enough -- The Myth of Monogamy, which discusses, among other things, how the much-vaunted examples of monogamy in the animal kingdom are, in fact, generally false, and shows that monogamy is hardly the normal human condition.

 

[GrnEyedGrl]

But fulfilling that "need" may not be worth the possible costs.

Take a "conventional" marriage. Do you think it's right for a spouse to cheat just because they have this desire that's going unfulfilled? Most of the time I do not believe it's ok to cheat. But I've recently learned that maybe, just maybe it's at least justified sometimes.

On the one hand, life can be tough sometimes and we need to just deal with it. But like you've recognized, we have every right to do what makes us happy.

I'm not saying it's wrong to fulfill our desires, but we can't always have our cake and eat it to.

I'm sorry, I may have not communicated my intent correctly. My intentions are never to betray or deceive my partner by cheating in order to fulfill needs that are not being met at home. My husband and I are 100% open and honest about this subject. I understand the possible costs and do not want him to have to pay those. Therefore, when I have needs or desires that are not being met, we discuss it and come to the conclusion of how to solve the problem together. In no way was this conversation a means to justify cheating....not in the least. My husband and I have had this conversation many, many times and both feel the same way about it. I was merely asking your opinions on the subject of needs fulfillment, not justification of cheating.

 

[GrnEyedGrl]

Hi. Just dropping into the middle of this; hope that's okay.



It's clearly the 'cheating' aspect that's the problem, as you say; it's the betrayal of trust that causes the problems. In a 'nonconventional' marriage, both partners understand and agree to what's going on, so there's no cheating involved. A much healthier outlook, I think.

There's a book about the myth of monogamy, entitled -- appropriately enough -- The Myth of Monogamy, which discusses, among other things, how the much-vaunted examples of monogamy in the animal kingdom are, in fact, generally false, and shows that monogamy is hardly the normal human condition.

Exactly! This entire scenario would obviously fall into the "nonconventional" marriage scenario. In my case, my husband and I both understand and agree to what is going on....thus no cheating. Furthermore, we respect each others views and opinions on the subject. If either one of us are uncomfortable at any point in time, we communicate about it, compromise, come to an understanding, and move on, and in doing so, move closer together.

 

[tanru]

Complete agreement. My wife and I are working on developing the same sort of understanding; it's in its fledling stages as yet, and we've only poked at the envelope, but we're learning. It's a lot of work, isn't it, just making sure the communication is right?

 

[sterculius]

History, for the most part has been told from the perspective of men, and women were their property, even in multiples. Only recently has a women been seen as an equal partner with the same rights as her husband. But the power dynamic is not completely the same as the sexual dynamic. Different individuals have divergent sexual needs. For example; having had a very erotically satisfying suckbuddy relationship as a young teen with my best friend, I still love performing fellatio. My wife, who I love very much, is unable to satisfy this craving of mine, so I meet other men for this purpose. My wife is unaware of this need of mine and would be very hurt if she were to find out. Strangely enough, I don't see this as infidelity because it's an activity in which she's not physically capable of participating and it has no bearing on my love for her. I do other things with "just the guys" so why should this be any different? I feel guilty because of the need for deception but not because of the activity itself.

 

[tanru]

The problem there, old boy, is that if and when she ever finds out, you're going to be in a world of hurt. You'd've been far better off, I think, discussing it as mature adults and finding a solution.

 

[silverwhisper]

cwatson, that was a very, very thorough answer. i'd argue incidentally that such an understanding even predates hellenic culture, though. but otherwise, i'm in complete agreement.

ed

 

[kaycee217]

I'm sorry, I may have not communicated my intent correctly. My intentions are never to betray or deceive my partner by cheating in order to fulfill needs that are not being met at home. My husband and I are 100% open and honest about this subject. I understand the possible costs and do not want him to have to pay those. Therefore, when I have needs or desires that are not being met, we discuss it and come to the conclusion of how to solve the problem together. In no way was this conversation a means to justify cheating....not in the least. My husband and I have had this conversation many, many times and both feel the same way about it. I was merely asking your opinions on the subject of needs fulfillment, not justification of cheating.

Well then in that case, there is no question, is there?

But what happens when you don't have a spouse as accommodating as yours? I think the "need versus want" distinction still remains pertinent. And I don't believe it should be expected we all have such accommodating spouses or partners.

I am uneasy with statements such as "If I want something, I'll get it." Such statements need qualification - you've obviously qualified yours, though.

 

[Ironmanplus]

This is a tremendously complex subject.

I think the error that swingers make is the same as the puritans, ie "you are really just like me and you would figure that out if you were more honest with yourself".

The fact is some people want multiple partners and some people don't. Swingers are trying to change human nature as much as the puritan is. But at least the puritan realizes that is what they are doing.

As for stigma, there will always be stigma. Sex is not the only thing stigmatized of course, and when you examine things that are stigmatized it is understandable that sex would be among them. It is society's way of trying to discourage behaviors without resorting to gov't. Or picking up where gov't leaves off.

As fun as sex is there are of course many potential downsides. Addiction, disease, unplanned pregnancy, broken homes, etc. All things nobody wants that can drastically impact not only your own life but the people who care about you.

I'm more of a live and let live, but realize there are actually people that net net do want to live a monogamous lifestyle. The modern west is approaching the workable compromise, which would be like minded people forming their own communities, whichever set of values they wish to embrace.

 

[CWatson]

I feel guilty because of the need for deception but not because of the activity itself.

Feeling guilt is a bad sign.

I'm with Tanru: you should talk it out with her. She will obviously understand that this isn't a pleasure she can necessarily help you fulfill, seeing as how she lacks a cock. (Unless you don't mind going down on a strap-on.) But you need to be honest with your wife; nothing else works in a marriage for long.

Remember that anything which pushes you apart can also draw you together. This makes the hardest kind of sense, and it depends on your outlook as well as hers. But simply put, you guys can see it as, "Shit, now I have to fight him/her to get what I want." You can also see it as, "Well, that's weird, but I love him/her, so how can I help him/her get what s/he wants?" Can your wife become, not an obstruction, but a willing co-conspirator in your enjoyment of sucking cock? And can you become not an obstruction but a willing co-conspirator in whatever level of monogamy she prefers? If you guys can make that transition, you'll have the kind of storybook fairy-tale love most of us don't even dare to dream about.

 

[GrnEyedGrl]

Well then in that case, there is no question, is there?

But what happens when you don't have a spouse as accommodating as yours? I think the "need versus want" distinction still remains pertinent. And I don't believe it should be expected we all have such accommodating spouses or partners.

I am uneasy with statements such as "If I want something, I'll get it." Such statements need qualification - you've obviously qualified yours, though.

I understand and see your point. I am fortunate to have an accommodating spouse and imagine that if I didn't, I wouldn't be married anymore.

I wasn't really asking a question. I was asking for discussion.

I, too, am uneasy with such statements. I don't really feel that way per se, because I do have enough of a heart to take into consideration what those "wants" and the subsequent getting of those wants do to those around me.

 

[specter170]

I have been married for 24 years. For the first 5 or so my wife and I shared a 'regular' married sex life. Once maybe twice a week. When she didn't become pregnant we went for testing. She had problems that led to fertility drugs. Once that started she wanted sex all the time. I quickly realized it wasn't me she wanted but a baby. We adopted in our 8th year of marriage. My sex life since that time has been awful. It slowed to once a month then to a few times a year. The last few years its been less the 2 times. I have become active in searching for someone that can relate to my problems and help satisfy my needs. I can't tell you how long its been since I penetrated a woman and was 'allowed' to move freely and feel those wonderful feelings. Or have a woman take my cock in her mouth and truly take the time and please me. I miss the foreplay, touching, caressing and performing oral on a woman. I don't want to fuck a prostitute. I want to make love to a woman. Something my wife has zero interest in doing.

Am I a cheater, label as you will. I'm 47, been living with this for 18 yrs and finally decided its my problem to deal with.

 

[Berwyn]

When I was talking before about risk, I meant psychological/emotional risk. For me, an emotional betrayal would be more painful than any physical problem.
As to the discussion of an unfulfilled need being discussed with and accommodated by a spouse: in some relationships, that's just not gonna happen. It would be the ideal, but much in life falls short of ideal.
I love the idea of a women taking a strap on to me. I have had some toys that I played with by myself to that end. My wife found one and was mortified. We had a LONG talk about it. I gave her articles about it from male and female perspectives. I let her have time to digest it and come to a decision. She basically told me it repelled her and she would not be involved in any way and was going to pretend that she knows nothing about it. That was 7 years ago and she has never mentioned it again. And neither have I.
I know I'm gonna get a lot of "then you should dump her for someone that can fulfill that need". And I considered it. But when I thought it out I decided that her and the marriage were more important than my fetish. She is accommodating in other ways. It's not what I would consider an ideal situation, but it's not a deal breaker either.
I think any discussions of meeting sexual needs/wants that fall outside of masturbation must also take the partner into consideration. Most of us do not fall into the happy situation of having a spouse that is perfectly in sync with us sexually.
For me, I weighed my need vs my desire to stay with my wife and I chose her. I imagine that there are a lot of people who have made the same type of decision. And I'm also sure that others have/would choose the opposite of what I did. I think it's all about making the best choice for ourselves.

 

[pplwatching]

In a 'nonconventional' marriage, both partners understand and agree to what's going on, so there's no cheating involved.

In my (humble) opinion, this line of thinking is flawed. A marriage comes from two people, but becomes something much more than either individual. Only considering who is being cheated ignores the often subtle, but powerful, roles that sex plays in the marriage beyond pleasure and excitement. The marriage itself is cheated, and each spouse is cheated of it's potential even if they don't understand what they are agreeing to.

If both spouses want extramarital sexual partners, then they obviously can agree to whatever level of outside sexual activity works for them. It is naive' to conclude, however, that because there is consent, that there is no cheating.

 

[KokopelliRises]

In my (humble) opinion, this line of thinking is flawed. A marriage comes from two people, but becomes something much more than either individual. Only considering who is being cheated ignores the often subtle, but powerful, roles that sex plays in the marriage beyond pleasure and excitement. The marriage itself is cheated, and each spouse is cheated of it's potential even if they don't understand what they are agreeing to.

If both spouses want extramarital sexual partners, then they obviously can agree to whatever level of outside sexual activity works for them. It is naive' to conclude, however, that because there is consent, that there is no cheating.

It is more than consent--it is informed consent and an agreement to communicate about what each partner wishes for outside of the marriage. By their agreement, whatever level of sexual activity was agreed upon as acceptable is not cheating. Period.

However, I'm not saying that it isn't possible for partners who have non-conventional/non-monogamous marriages/partnerships to cheat. If a partner lies about their activities, constantly and consistently, that is cheating, at least by my reckoning. It is outside the realm of their agreement--but it is up to them to decide what cheating consists of, within the context of their agreement. It is not up to anyone else--not random strangers on the internet, nor the government, nor some religious leader--just them.

 

[Cattypuss]

History, for the most part has been told from the perspective of men, and women were their property, even in multiples. Only recently has a women been seen as an equal partner with the same rights as her husband. But the power dynamic is not completely the same as the sexual dynamic. Different individuals have divergent sexual needs. For example; having had a very erotically satisfying suckbuddy relationship as a young teen with my best friend, I still love performing fellatio. My wife, who I love very much, is unable to satisfy this craving of mine, so I meet other men for this purpose. My wife is unaware of this need of mine and would be very hurt if she were to find out. Strangely enough, I don't see this as infidelity because it's an activity in which she's not physically capable of participating and it has no bearing on my love for her. I do other things with "just the guys" so why should this be any different? I feel guilty because of the need for deception but not because of the activity itself.

If I found out my partner was doing this I would be ABSOLUTELY FUCKING FURIOUS at the thought of the disease-exposure I had been unknowingly getting.

 

[GrnEyedGrl]

It is more than consent--it is informed consent and an agreement to communicate about what each partner wishes for outside of the marriage. By their agreement, whatever level of sexual activity was agreed upon as acceptable is not cheating. Period.

However, I'm not saying that it isn't possible for partners who have non-conventional/non-monogamous marriages/partnerships to cheat. If a partner lies about their activities, constantly and consistently, that is cheating, at least by my reckoning. It is outside the realm of their agreement--but it is up to them to decide what cheating consists of, within the context of their agreement. It is not up to anyone else--not random strangers on the internet, nor the government, nor some religious leader--just them.

This is exactly what I was thinking, but couldn't quite put it into the eloquent words you did. I agree, it is discussed and agreed upon by the two people within the marriage. Therefore, as long as the aforementioned agreement is upheld, there is no cheating in the very raw definition of the word. Well put, KokopelliRises.

 

[GrnEyedGrl]

If I found out my partner was doing this I would be ABSOLUTELY FUCKING FURIOUS at the thought of the disease-exposure I had been unknowingly getting.

Right. As another poster mentioned. Try talking about it with her as mature adults, confessing what needs/wants you have that are unfulfilled. That form of betrayal and deceit is not okay in my book. It's purely a matter of her health, not honest needs fulfillment in this case.

 

[tanru]

There does, I suppose, have to come a point when, if enough needs are being met by outside parties, one has to wonder what the point of the original relationship is....

 

[sterculius]

If I found out my partner was doing this I would be ABSOLUTELY FUCKING FURIOUS at the thought of the disease-exposure I had been unknowingly getting.

A valid observation. For this reason I'm VERY VERY cautious regarding my choice of playmates. None of that tawdry, anonymous "gloryhole" type of hookup. Strictly other married cautious men like myself. Which still doesn't address the dishonesty issue. I'd like to be able to discuss this with her, but I know that it would be a deal breaker.

 

[Cattypuss]

A valid observation. For this reason I'm VERY VERY cautious regarding my choice of playmates. None of that tawdry, anonymous "gloryhole" type of hookup. Strictly other married cautious men like myself. Which still doesn't address the dishonesty issue. I'd like to be able to discuss this with her, but I know that it would be a deal breaker.

To be fair it doesn't address the disease issue either. It's not just extremely promiscuous glory-hole types who carry disease.

 

[pplwatching]

By their agreement, whatever level of sexual activity was agreed upon as acceptable is not cheating. Period.

It would certainly be nice if things were this black and white in marriage. My favorite quote from a Lit member is, "My ex wife and I used to swing, but that's not why we got divorced." People are certainly free to agree to whatever behavior they want, but don't kid yourself into thinking that the marriage isn't being cheated.

 

[coastal-boy]

It would certainly be nice if things were this black and white in marriage. My favorite quote from a Lit member is, "My ex wife and I used to swing, but that's not why we got divorced." People are certainly free to agree to whatever behavior they want, but don't kid yourself into thinking that the marriage isn't being cheated.

marriage means different things for different people and even means different things for the same person at different times in their lives. Just because your view that a marriage is being "cheated" doesn't mean that that is true for someone else. This type of attitude is no different from the religious fanatics who knock on my door telling me the way I view God is wrong. There is no "one" way of anything for "everybody". I have no issue with this statement being true for you...but fuck you and the horse you rode in on for your condescending attitude thinking that someone who has a different opinion from you is simply "kidding themselves".

There does, I suppose, have to come a point when, if enough needs are being met by outside parties, one has to wonder what the point of the original relationship is....

THIS is probably THE most important quote of the entire thread. Obviously, it is different for different people and I guess therein, lies the problem and gets right back to the whole crux of the OP original question IMO...why can't a minority lifestyle simply be accepted by the majority as being an acceptible choice to the minority when it doesn't impact the majority? (others may not follow this thought process...hell...I may not tomorrow...but it makes sense to me right now)

 

[pplwatching]

This type of attitude is no different from the religious fanatics who knock on my door telling me the way I view God is wrong.

The difference is that I am posting in a thread specifically asking for a discussion.