Fuck

[Bramblethorn]

ok, so it was a friend of a friend.....but still the fact remains that suicide is not an acceptable answer.

I'm going to be charitable here - for all that I'm NOT in a charitable mood right now - and I'm going to suppose that maybe, even after rereading my post and Con's, you still missed the bit where she was losing her access to healthcare. You know, the stuff that keeps people alive.

Because if you didn't miss that bit, and still said what you just said... well, in my book, when you've just condemned somebody to death by taking away the care they need to live, you don't get to criticise them for choosing how they'd rather die.

 

[Cumference]

ok, so it was a friend of a friend.....but still the fact remains that suicide is not an acceptable answer.

In some cases it is.

A close family member of mine chose death where he could himself decide time, place and method, rather than desintegrating slowly and painfully.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Farawyn]

As in 2000, people who said there was very little difference between the policies of the Republican and the Democrat are about to find out otherwise.

*hugs*

 

[MeekMe]

Sorry about your friend of a friend Bramblethorn. There are so many people scared for the changes that can take place in their lives in the coming years.

 

[Nezhul]

I'm going to be charitable here - for all that I'm NOT in a charitable mood right now - and I'm going to suppose that maybe, even after rereading my post and Con's, you still missed the bit where she was losing her access to healthcare. You know, the stuff that keeps people alive.

Because if you didn't miss that bit, and still said what you just said... well, in my book, when you've just condemned somebody to death by taking away the care they need to live, you don't get to criticise them for choosing how they'd rather die.

Dumb. You don't know what comes in the future, how long it will take before it comes to be and waht will change in your life before that.

Even if you think that suicide is an answer (which I disagree with), then I say that pre-emptive suicide is not an answer. Should we all maybe go kill ourselves right now when we find out that in a few years MAYBE something will happen?

This medical reform is not definite. It's not. It's part of what Trump was talking about, but how and if it will be implemented - is still not definite.

Can you clearly tell what form this "rollback" will take, how soon it would be and what your situation will exactly be like? No.
Can you say that none of your family or friends will SUDDENLY win a lottery and support you tomorrow? No.
Can you say that nothing at all can be done? No.

It's at the very least several MONTHS if not years before this change hits you with full force. If you choose to suicide now, you are just a weak, neurotic person who didn't have good enough friends and family to support you and talk you out of it.

Ok, again, MAYBE suicide when you are very ill is an option for some. But doing so several months or even days in advance of losing medical care? I call it sad, stupid, tragic - but it is definitely not something to be proud of.

 

[MeekMe]

If you choose to suicide now, you are just a weak, neurotic person who didn't have good enough friends and family to support you and talk you out of it.

This is disgusting and I have no other words for you.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Blue]

Armchair-God is the ultimate moral arbiter and has declared that reality must be interpreted in an irrationally reductionist, black-and-white framework with nuance, personal experience and contextual analysis thrown out the window, and all of his beings must adhere to it. For Armchair-God is wise and just.

 

[Bramblethorn]

fix quote tag

Dumb. You don't know what comes in the future, how long it will take before it comes to be and waht will change in your life before that.

Even if you think that suicide is an answer (which I disagree with),

People kill themselves because they don't think life is worth living. They don't give a shit whether you agree with that choice. If you can't offer them better answers, don't complain when they pick that one.

If you think "hey somebody might win the lottery and support you" is a better answer... I don't know what to tell you.

then I say that pre-emptive suicide is not an answer. Should we all maybe go kill ourselves right now when we find out that in a few years MAYBE something will happen?

This medical reform is not definite. It's not. It's part of what Trump was talking about, but how and if it will be implemented - is still not definite.

Can you clearly tell what form this "rollback" will take, how soon it would be and what your situation will exactly be like? No.

You are quite right about that last bit...

...so, do you not understand how horrible it is for people to live in that state of uncertainty and powerlessness where they can only hope for things entirely beyond their control to align in their favour? Can you seriously not comprehend why somebody who's already dealing with serious illness, and all that that takes out of them, might decide that they just can't go on relying on hope when it's worked out so badly before?

Can you say that none of your family or friends will SUDDENLY win a lottery and support you tomorrow? No.

This is a fucking joke, right?

It's at the very least several MONTHS if not years before this change hits you with full force. If you choose to suicide now, you are just a weak, neurotic person who didn't have good enough friends and family to support you and talk you out of it.

Yes, illness and poverty do make people "weak". That's sort of the point of it. If you think "weak" = "bad person", well, that's revealing.

They also tend to undermine people's support networks. It's harder for somebody to maintain a strong group of friends when they're chronically ill and all their energy is going into just getting by, day to day. Can't afford to go out with friends, don't have the energy to keep in touch with family, etc. etc.

The ones who remain don't have unlimited resources, and a lot of people hate asking for help when they aren't in a position to repay it.

I'm lucky enough to have a reasonably secure job that pays decently. I have a dear friend Y who lives below the poverty line in the USA, working two jobs to get by while dealing with health conditions and employment and housing discrimination. I don't think they have ever asked me for money; I pretty much had to BEG them to let me give them a few hundred here and there, and so often I only find out about their crises after the fact because they didn't want to bother me or just didn't have the energy to write.

It's exhausting being Y's friend - that is not a criticism but a simple statement of fact. I've made the choice to give material and emotional support to somebody who just can't put much in from their side because they don't have much. I don't regret that choice, but it takes a lot out of me.

I also have a partner who's been unable to work for medical reasons for some years now (and before that, due to age/sex discrimination). I make enough for us both to live on, but that loss of independence is still hard on her, and helping her deal with that takes a lot of emotional labour on my part.

So I can't be watching out for every last person on my contacts list. If somebody quietly drops out of touch, I may not realise that they're desperate.

But sure, go ahead and blame it on "weak" people with crappy friends, if it makes you feel better about the fact that the wealthiest major nation in history has left many so miserable that they don't see a way out.

Ok, again, MAYBE suicide when you are very ill is an option for some. But doing so several months or even days in advance of losing medical care? I call it sad, stupid, tragic - but it is definitely not something to be proud of.

Where are you getting "proud of" in anything that I posted about this?

 

[Gwanji16]

Bringing the fuck back

In an attempt to bring these threads together and stay faithful to the theme:

There is no way one can look at this election as anything but a potential fucking disaster.

He will not fucking be able to roll back affordable health care neither easily nor quickly, even with a fucking repub majority in Congress. He will have to find a way to get insurance for the people who will lose it should he shut it down, unless he doesn't care about those people, which means he's a fucking cunt.

End of life decisions fucking suck, especially for people in chronic and relentless pain, who have few options, apart from medical marijuana, which is not for everybody. Generally, I think suicide is a selfish act, one that scars those left behind for life. But for those in chronic pain and torment who have no other foreseeable release, it may be the only way out. Let's stop the fucking judgment on this.

 

[Blue]

He will not fucking be able to roll back affordable health care neither easily nor quickly, even with a fucking repub majority in Congress. He will have to find a way to get insurance for the people who will lose it should he shut it down, unless he doesn't care about those people, which means he's a fucking cunt.

The common rhetoric is that the GOP has voted to dismantle Obamacare over 60 times, which Obama always vetoes. But specifically, the GOP has tried to overturn Obama's veto power over bills they propose to dismantle Obamacare over 60 times, so that they can eventually pass one.

I have positively no doubt that the only reason Obamacare will make it past 2017 is if Trump's cabinet allows the insurance companies signed into it to hike their premiums uncapped. Essentially turning it into legalized theft that citizens are legally unable to prevent since it is mandated.

Although I feel that would be a little too smart for them so maybe they will just shut it down and revert to the pre-ACA market. In either case; I'm absolutely certain that things will get much worse for Americans on private health insurance.

 

[Farawyn]

People kill themselves because they don't think life is worth living. They don't give a shit whether you agree with that choice. If you can't offer them better answers, don't complain when they pick that one.

If you think "hey somebody might win the lottery and support you" is a better answer... I don't know what to tell you.



You are quite right about that last bit...

...so, do you not understand how horrible it is for people to live in that state of uncertainty and powerlessness where they can only hope for things entirely beyond their control to align in their favour? Can you seriously not comprehend why somebody who's already dealing with serious illness, and all that that takes out of them, might decide that they just can't go on relying on hope when it's worked out so badly before?



This is a fucking joke, right?



Yes, illness and poverty do make people "weak". That's sort of the point of it. If you think "weak" = "bad person", well, that's revealing.

They also tend to undermine people's support networks. It's harder for somebody to maintain a strong group of friends when they're chronically ill and all their energy is going into just getting by, day to day. Can't afford to go out with friends, don't have the energy to keep in touch with family, etc. etc.

The ones who remain don't have unlimited resources, and a lot of people hate asking for help when they aren't in a position to repay it.

I'm lucky enough to have a reasonably secure job that pays decently. I have a dear friend Y who lives below the poverty line in the USA, working two jobs to get by while dealing with health conditions and employment and housing discrimination. I don't think they have ever asked me for money; I pretty much had to BEG them to let me give them a few hundred here and there, and so often I only find out about their crises after the fact because they didn't want to bother me or just didn't have the energy to write.

It's exhausting being Y's friend - that is not a criticism but a simple statement of fact. I've made the choice to give material and emotional support to somebody who just can't put much in from their side because they don't have much. I don't regret that choice, but it takes a lot out of me.

I also have a partner who's been unable to work for medical reasons for some years now (and before that, due to age/sex discrimination). I make enough for us both to live on, but that loss of independence is still hard on her, and helping her deal with that takes a lot of emotional labour on my part.

So I can't be watching out for every last person on my contacts list. If somebody quietly drops out of touch, I may not realise that they're desperate.

But sure, go ahead and blame it on "weak" people with crappy friends, if it makes you feel better about the fact that the wealthiest major nation in history has left many so miserable that they don't see a way out.
Ok, again, MAYBE suicide when you are very ill is an option for some. But doing so several months or even days in advance of losing medical care? I call it sad, stupid, tragic - but it is definitely not something to be proud of.

Where are you getting "proud of" in anything that I posted about this?

Fuck, you are awesome.

 

[_Necrosomantic_]

People kill themselves because they don't think life is worth living. They don't give a shit whether you agree with that choice. If you can't offer them better answers, don't complain when they pick that one.

If you think "hey somebody might win the lottery and support you" is a better answer... I don't know what to tell you.

The older we get, the more reality sets in. We don't live in a magical, fairy tale land that sports easy answers or where better options grow on trees. I don't think anyone has any illusions about this. So yeah, people get to the end of their respective ropes and, in the end, it's their choice on how they want to handle it.

That being said, there are a myriad of reasons why people punch their own clocks. Ranging from entirely understandable, questionable, or wholly short sighted and dramatic. It's not up to anyone to offer them alternatives because, when you get down to the meat of it, it's a singularly personal and selfish decision. The moral connectations and arguments made for either side of pro/con, are entirely moot. It's easy to be sarcastic about the prospect of someone coming along and " saving " another who's on the verge. It's degrading to both them and their situation, as well as arrogant to think that you're so fucking special that you are capable of doing it. But wanting to be there for someone and help them is a good thing, as long as it comes from the right place. That can make all the difference.

But I'm rambling, and it doesn't matter what I think. All I really wanted to say, for what it's worth Bramblethorn, is that I'm sorry your friend lost a friend. It fucking sucks, every time.

 

[DarkSimian]

ok, I don't normally do this, but I think y'all need to hear this. I have suffered from depression for the last 30 yrs. Not "oh, he's just got the blues", but clinical depression. I've seen therapists, doctors, had the meds, etc. And nothing worked. Every single FUCKING day for the last three decades I have wanted to end my life, to stop the pain, to stop the voices, to just REST. And every single fucking day, I find a reason not to do it. And mostly I do it for y'all; you need me. My mom, my family, my friends, my job. If I wasn't around, to clean up the messes, to fix things, to put everything back together, shit would fall apart. And so every day (or night), I get up, put on the monkey suit, and jump thru the hoops, and hope that it will get better. But it doesn't. And I read about people that do end it, that do find that peace, and I am JEALOUS. Because they got to have what I never will. So y'all can take all your sanctimonious bullshit and shove it up your FUCKING ASSES.

And this is why I don't belong here anymore!

 

[Farawyn]

ok, I don't normally do this, but I think y'all need to hear this. I have suffered from depression for the last 30 yrs. Not "oh, he's just got the blues", but clinical depression. I've seen therapists, doctors, had the meds, etc. And nothing worked. Every single FUCKING day for the last three decades I have wanted to end my life, to stop the pain, to stop the voices, to just REST. And every single fucking day, I find a reason not to do it. And mostly I do it for y'all; you need me. My mom, my family, my friends, my job. If I wasn't around, to clean up the messes, to fix things, to put everything back together, shit would fall apart. And so every day (or night), I get up, put on the monkey suit, and jump thru the hoops, and hope that it will get better. But it doesn't. And I read about people that do end it, that do find that peace, and I am JEALOUS. Because they got to have what I never will. So y'all can take all your sanctimonious bullshit and shove it up your FUCKING ASSES.

And this is why I don't belong here anymore!

They got to have peace?

I'm not being sanctimonious. I don't see that anyone here is.
I don't like stuff in my fucking ass, especially bullshit, that's not high on my ass shove bucket list. I don't think.

What do you have, for YOU, that you are living for?
One. Thing.

And this you will have to take, or not. I care about you. I want you to stay.
That's it.

 

[HisArpy]

Staying out of the suicide debate. I have my beliefs and they are MINE. Yours may be different. Good luck and my condolences to anyone who loses anyone for any reason whatsoever. Life is precious.

When it comes to Trump's policies, we all should remember he was a D before he became an R. So he's played in both worlds. All in all, I think that we don't know who Trump the man is. If that's true, then we can't know what Trump the President is or isn't going to do.

I think we can expect his business ideology to control his decision making. Some people say "yeah, he ran his companies into bankruptcy" but that's only a tiny sliver of what he's done, not the whole picture. His companies are successful and they make money. He treats his people well and promotes those who deserve it. If he can do that for the entire country we are in for what he's promised. No guarantees, but...

We need to wait and see what develops. I don't believe that wholesale dismantling of ACA is going to happen. Will it happen eventually? Probably yes. My HOPE is that the replacement benefits everyone without crippling those who are going to be paying for it like the ACA is doing. I can't afford 116% premium increases every year. Neither can you regardless of what your income level is.

Guns? Trump has supported the assault weapon ban. He made a remark recently that people don't need to own them. So guns AREN'T going to suddenly show up on every street corner (it will be taco trucks instead).

Planned parenthood? Who knows what will happen, I certainly don't. I don't see Roe v Wade being overturned even by a stacked conservative supreme court. The backlash would be horrific and politicians and justices know it.

Immigration? It needs help. You know it needs help no matter which letter is on your voter registration.

I could go on but this is long winded. Except to say, FUCKING ENOUGH with the hysteria already. We are not children. It doesn't matter what Trump's policies are. Good or bad, we can survive.


DS, stick around. The subject is emotional and you shouldn't make judgmental or life changing decisions from an emotional standpoint. You KNOW this. You know it.

 

[Farawyn]

Staying out of the suicide debate. I have my beliefs and they are MINE. Yours may be different. Good luck and my condolences to anyone who loses anyone for any reason whatsoever. Life is precious.

When it comes to Trump's policies, we all should remember he was a D before he became an R. So he's played in both worlds. All in all, I think that we don't know who Trump the man is. If that's true, then we can't know what Trump the President is or isn't going to do.

I think we can expect his business ideology to control his decision making. Some people say "yeah, he ran his companies into bankruptcy" but that's only a tiny sliver of what he's done, not the whole picture. His companies are successful and they make money. He treats his people well and promotes those who deserve it. If he can do that for the entire country we are in for what he's promised. No guarantees, but...

We need to wait and see what develops. I don't believe that wholesale dismantling of ACA is going to happen. Will it happen eventually? Probably yes. My HOPE is that the replacement benefits everyone without crippling those who are going to be paying for it like the ACA is doing. I can't afford 116% premium increases every year. Neither can you regardless of what your income level is.

Guns? Trump has supported the assault weapon ban. He made a remark recently that people don't need to own them. So guns AREN'T going to suddenly show up on every street corner (it will be taco trucks instead).

Planned parenthood? Who knows what will happen, I certainly don't. I don't see Roe v Wade being overturned even by a stacked conservative supreme court. The backlash would be horrific and politicians and justices know it.

Immigration? It needs help. You know it needs help no matter which letter is on your voter registration.

I could go on but this is long winded. Except to say, FUCKING ENOUGH with the hysteria already. We are not children. It doesn't matter what Trump's policies are. Good or bad, we can survive.


DS, stick around. The subject is emotional and you shouldn't make judgmental or life changing decisions from an emotional standpoint. You KNOW this. You know it.

I disagree with you on Trump. I'm not a child, nor am I hysterical. He doesn't get my benefit of the doubt. He gets total distrust and disgust unless he proves different. He's the President Elect, and he has a lot of work to do, none of which he has even hinted that he will take a stab at.

 

[makemewet69]

ok, I don't normally do this, but I think y'all need to hear this. I have suffered from depression for the last 30 yrs. Not "oh, he's just got the blues", but clinical depression. I've seen therapists, doctors, had the meds, etc. And nothing worked. Every single FUCKING day for the last three decades I have wanted to end my life, to stop the pain, to stop the voices, to just REST. And every single fucking day, I find a reason not to do it. And mostly I do it for y'all; you need me. My mom, my family, my friends, my job. If I wasn't around, to clean up the messes, to fix things, to put everything back together, shit would fall apart. And so every day (or night), I get up, put on the monkey suit, and jump thru the hoops, and hope that it will get better. But it doesn't. And I read about people that do end it, that do find that peace, and I am JEALOUS. Because they got to have what I never will. So y'all can take all your sanctimonious bullshit and shove it up your FUCKING ASSES.

And this is why I don't belong here anymore!

You know I love you, but I can tell you from personal experience there is no peace that comes with suicide. My dad died violently 8 months ago. There was nothing peaceful or anything of the such about it. It was violent and gory and I still can't sleep through the night because I have nightmares. The only peaceful nights of sleep I have are the rare ones when I can talk to CJ right before I go to sleep because his voice calms my soul.

Talk to people, get out and about, step away from technology, talk to a therapist (I go weekly and sometimes more because most of the time I feel like I'm fucking breaking because I still go back to that day and all the blood and all the pain and my friend that shit wasn't pretty or peaceful.) Depression and anxiety suck! They are vicious monsters. But please do not ever think of ending your life as something that is peaceful.

 

[Farawyn]

You know I love you, but I can tell you from personal experience there is no peace that comes with suicide. My dad died violently 8 months ago. There was nothing peaceful or anything of the such about it. It was violent and gory and I still can't sleep through the night because I have nightmares. The only peaceful nights of sleep I have are the rare ones when I can talk to CJ right before I go to sleep because his voice calms my soul.

Talk to people, get out and about, step away from technology, talk to a therapist (I go weekly and sometimes more because most of the time I feel like I'm fucking breaking because I still go back to that day and all the blood and all the pain and my friend that shit wasn't pretty or peaceful.) Depression and anxiety suck! They are vicious monsters. But please do not ever think of ending your life as something that is peaceful.

Fuck, MMW. I'm so sorry.

 

[_Necrosomantic_]

ok, I don't normally do this, but I think y'all need to hear this. I have suffered from depression for the last 30 yrs. Not "oh, he's just got the blues", but clinical depression. I've seen therapists, doctors, had the meds, etc. And nothing worked. Every single FUCKING day for the last three decades I have wanted to end my life, to stop the pain, to stop the voices, to just REST. And every single fucking day, I find a reason not to do it. And mostly I do it for y'all; you need me. My mom, my family, my friends, my job. If I wasn't around, to clean up the messes, to fix things, to put everything back together, shit would fall apart. And so every day (or night), I get up, put on the monkey suit, and jump thru the hoops, and hope that it will get better. But it doesn't. And I read about people that do end it, that do find that peace, and I am JEALOUS. Because they got to have what I never will. So y'all can take all your sanctimonious bullshit and shove it up your FUCKING ASSES.

And this is why I don't belong here anymore!

I like you DS, I do. We agree on music and I think you're an alright guy for what it's worth.

That being said.

Boo fucking hoo. You think you are the only person in the world that feels like that? That has to dig deep to find a reason to not eat a bullet because they are sick of the whole shit show? Get over yourself. Life is pain, highness. You can't honestly be dense enough to believe that you truly deserve that, or you wouldn't still be here. You know it's a problem and that deep down, you wish it was different. Yes, even if you hate yourself, you suck it up and keep going for those that love or depend on you. Because it's the right thing to do, because that's what a fucking decent person does. You take a big bite of that shit sandwich every day, don't let on what you think of the taste, and smile about it because there are things more important than your ego. So obviously, you ain't that bad now are you ( and that's not a question ). Instead of unfairly lashing out at strangers, maybe realize and try to be grateful for what you do have. It's easier than you think, look around you. You have family, friends, people that are there for you and don't wish you away, and certainly not dead. You have people here that don't want you to feel like you do, I know you do, otherwise you wouldn't be here. Suck it up, WE AREN'T ALL SO GODDAMN LUCKY FRIEND.

You wanna run away? Keep throwing yourself daily pity parties with pretty little hats because life didn't turn out the way you wanted it to? Keep perpetuating the way things are? That's your cross to bear. But now, that is on you man. You are letting it continue. Break the fucking mold. Try something else. Master your ass. Pop psychological platitudes. Et fucking cetera.

Regardless, coming in here and being an asshole while dumping your problems on the table isn't the way to change shit. You're better than that. But do what you like, after all, what the fuck does some sanctimonious asshole who has no reason whatsoever to give a fuck what you do, know about anything.

 

[HisArpy]

I disagree with you on Trump. I'm not a child, nor am I hysterical. He doesn't get my benefit of the doubt. He gets total distrust and disgust unless he proves different. He's the President Elect, and he has a lot of work to do, none of which he has even hinted that he will take a stab at.

This I don't understand. Why does TRUMP not get the benefit of the doubt you'd give anyone else?

Is the guy in line at the supermarket disgusting and untrustworthy until AFTER he's proven he comes up to some indefinite/undefined standard? Do you lose sleep over the fact that some guy walking his dog at midnight past your driveway MIGHT do something unless he somehow proves to you that he won't? (Remembering of course that this poor person has no idea that he needs to prove something to you in the first place before you decide if he's a human being or not.)

The mental contortions being engaged in to support emotional positions based on unsubstantiated fear is amazing. IMO, it's as childish to imagine there's a monster under the bed as it is to imagine Trump is equally as scary. Both are projections of what is inside you.

What would you do with a child who told you they were afraid that someone someday might hurt them? Cuddle them? Or join them under the covers? The FEAR may be real. The evidence to support it isn't.

 

[HisArpy]

Boo fucking hoo.

Not helping anyone.

 

[Farawyn]

This I don't understand. Why does TRUMP not get the benefit of the doubt you'd give anyone else?

Is the guy in line at the supermarket disgusting and untrustworthy until AFTER he's proven he comes up to some indefinite/undefined standard? Do you lose sleep over the fact that some guy walking his dog at midnight past your driveway MIGHT do something unless he somehow proves to you that he won't? (Remembering of course that this poor person has no idea that he needs to prove something to you in the first place before you decide if he's a human being or not.)

The mental contortions being engaged in to support emotional positions based on unsubstantiated fear is amazing. IMO, it's as childish to imagine there's a monster under the bed as it is to imagine Trump is equally as scary. Both are projections of what is inside you.

What would you do with a child who told you they were afraid that someone someday might hurt them? Cuddle them? Or join them under the covers? The FEAR may be real. The evidence to support it isn't.

He's a misogynistic, racist, spoiled, impulsive, tax evading, outsourcing, pussy grabbing, lying, cheating orange asshole.
He's not ever said he's going to change.
Why should he get the benefit of the doubt, or anything else from me?

This has nothing to do with some deep childish fear, save me the Pysch 101 bullshit, I took that class, too.

 

[Farawyn]

Not helping anyone.

Oh, who the fuck knows what's helping? If anything? Look at DS's list of things he's tried for his 30 years of depression. You think he hasn't heard tough love before?

Fuck, you are arrogant. And not in a good way.