Foreign words in stories

[Writer61]

Many of my stories take place in countries or feature characters for whom English is not their native language.

To help set the scene, I like to sprinkle in a few non-English words. Sometimes I include the English translation immediately afterwards. For example:

"Ola, hello," she said.

Or, I try to make it clear using the text that follows immediately. For example:

Lunch was erwtensoep, the traditional Dutch pea soup often served in the wintertime.

But, sometimes, I only offer the sense of what was said/written, for example:

“Bof,” said Valerie, shrugging her shoulders in that most Gallic gesture, “Allons-y.”
We climbed out of the jacuzzi, and I followed her to their villa.

What do you think of the latter approach? Does it matter?

 

[MillieDynamite]

Any of the three will work fine, or even better, use all three, and sometimes don't explain. They don't even need to know the language to run a search and find what they need. However, some might be too lazy to find it out.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

Any of the three will work fine, or even better, use all three, and sometimes don't explain. They don't even need to know the language to run a search and find what they need. However, some might be too lazy to find it out.

Millie, you're such a narish mentsh! (foolish person)

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

But seriously, I think Millie has the right idea. Or, you have the right idea, @Writer61

 

[Writer61]

I should add that I reserve italics for non-English words, although I am torn on this when referring to the names of people, streets, or places.

In a recently completed but not yet published story, I did not use italics for Gijsbert (a Dutch male name) or Westerkerk (a landmark in Amsterdam), but I did for erwtensoep.

Thoughts?

 

[TheLobster]

In a recently completed but not yet published story, I did not use italics for Gijsbert (a Dutch male name) or Westerkerk (a landmark in Amsterdam), but I did for erwtensoep.

You shouldn't have used italics for any of these, including the dish. These are all specific names, not random interjections in a foreign language that might've been translated, but aren't.

If you're not sure, think whether you'd italicize Bratwurst, or dim sum, or pierogi; it's the same principle.

 

[Writer61]

If you're not sure, think whether you'd italicize Bratwurst, or dim sum, or pierogi; it's the same principle.

I think those are all words that are commonly recognised by English speakers (although pierogi less so).

 

[old_prof]

I have used occasional words of French in three stories I can remember off the cuff. My one humor story they were used to convey extra jokes or information, but the story worked without them, so I let them sit not called out specially. Most of those were the pet name the MC called her lovers. Or an occasional Merde!

My two novels in draft form each has at least one Franch native speaker. I make sure there is enough context to make the reader aware of the gist of the word even if they don't know the exact translation.

I think @HyunnaPark made wonderful use of introducing Korean words in both Language Exchange and Kibun. If you are interesting in seeing this done well, I recommend either of these stories, especially Language Exchange.

 

[TheLobster]

What do you think of the latter approach? Does it matter?

I've done the third approach, and the language cited was an alien one (*), so context was pretty much everything. It works, and it can enhance the flavor of the narrative rather well.

(*) Okay, technically it was a somewhat stylized Earthly language, but only like 0.0001% of people who'd recognize it as such.

 

[YmaOHyd]

I should add that I reserve italics for non-English words, although I am torn on this when referring to the names of people, streets, or places.

In a recently completed but not yet published story, I did not use italics for Gijsbert (a Dutch male name) or Westerkerk (a landmark in Amsterdam), but I did for erwtensoep.

Thoughts?

That's correct; the non-italicized words are proper nouns, while the italicized word is a common noun. For places, you'd italicize the common version but not the proper version: piazza, but Piazza del Campidoglio. Names shouldn't be italicized.

You shouldn't have used italics for any of these, including the dish. These are all specific names, not random interjections in a foreign language that might've been translated, but aren't.

If you're not sure, think whether you'd italicize Bratwurst, or dim sum, or pierogi; it's the same principle.

It's different because erwtensoep is a dish that we have an English name for. You'd use standard text for miso soup but italicized text for miso-shiro or omiotsuke, despite those all being the same thing. Dim sum, pierogi and bratwurst are all loan words in English, but I suspect if you were writing in the 1950s you'd italicize dim sum.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Thanks for the subtitles.

Millie, you're such a narish mentsh! (foolish person)

 

[Writer61]

It's different because erwtensoep is a dish that we have an English name for.

Yes, and no. I have never had a pea soup in England that comes close to the full glory of erwtensoep.

You'd use standard text for miso soup but italicized text for miso-shiro or omiotsuke, despite those all being the same thing. Dim sum, pierogi and bratwurst are all loan words in English, but I suspect if you were writing in the 1950s you'd italicize dim sum.

Agree with all of that, including dim sum in the 50s.

 

[TheLobster]

It's different because erwtensoep is a dish that we have an English name for. You'd use standard text for miso soup but italicized text for miso-shiro or omiotsuke, despite those all being the same thing. Dim sum, pierogi and bratwurst are all loan words in English, but I suspect if you were writing in the 1950s you'd italicize dim sum.

I feel like we might be confusing the usage of italics here. When you bring up the foreign word and immediately explain it, you may italicize that word as a form of emphasis; to make it clear which one is the word you're explaining.

But if we're just talking macaronic language in general, I don't see why you'd decide to write a non-English word or passage for literary effect, but then lampshade the fact you're doing it by employing italics.

 

[YmaOHyd]

I feel like we might be confusing the usage of italics here. When you bring up the foreign word and immediately explain it, you may italicize that word as a form of emphasis; to make it clear which one is the word you're explaining.

But if we're just talking macaronic language in general, I don't see why you'd decide to write a non-English word or passage for literary effect, but then lampshade the fact you're doing it by employing italics.

Chicago Manual of Style's suggestion, basically, is that using italics tells the reader that the usage of unfamiliar language is deliberate, and that if the word is used often enough that its meaning should become familiar and plain to the reader simply through exposure within the text, it should stop being italicized after the first usage. Personally I find that worse than maintaining consistency throughout (and some of the recentish entries on the CMOS blog agree). (Strunk and White's guidance is: don't. Use English whenever possible.)

I think in some cases the use of italics is a sign to the reader that it's okay that they don't understand the italicized text. A quote from Shogun:

Mariko laughed out loud.

Blackthorne smiled with her, feeling more confident now. "It's true, senhora. It's honto."

"Sorewa honto desu ka?" Toranaga asked impatiently. What's true?

Mariko laughed out loud.

Blackthorne smiled with her, feeling more confident now. "It's true, senhora. It's honto."

"Sorewa honto desu ka?" Toranaga asked impatiently. What's true?

Personally I find the first quotation more pleasant to read. As soon as I see those italics, I know Japanese is coming.

 

[Writer61]

But if we're just talking macaronic language in general, I don't see why you'd decide to write a non-English word or passage for literary effect, but then lampshade the fact you're doing it by employing italics.

That's why I am seeking opinions.

My instinct is to help a reader who is unfamiliar with the language (and perhaps English too).

 

[TheWorldBuilder]

I wonder how JRRT would have handled it?

SF & fantasy authors will use a totally different approach to authors who are simply using a foreign location for a contemporary story.

 

[Writer61]

I wonder how JRRT would have handled it?

SF & fantasy authors will use a totally different approach to authors who are simply using a foreign location for a contemporary story.

Good question.

A quick look suggests that he did not use them. But one theory is that it was because doing so was more expensive with traditional typesetting.

 

[THBGato]

What do you think of the latter approach? Does it matter?

Like, everything - it depends. What do you want to achieve?

In Desire & Duende, I had two characters who didn't speak each other's language. Cristina didn't speak English and Leila, the pov character, didn't speak Spanish. So, sometimes when Cristina would say something I would just put in the Spanish but not translate - I wanted the reader to feel the same confusion Leila felt.

"Um..." I look up into Cristina's proud, pretty face, her black eyes sucking the words from me. Not that I'd be able to say much.

"Tiene cita con una chica a las dos." Mel says. Dos, that means two. I think chica means girl and I get what she's saying. I notice she's avoiding using él or ella, he or she. Mel's considerate like that.

"¿Quién? ¿Su novia?" Cristina demands. No idea what she's asking.

"No, solo una chica que trabaja en un bar. Conocieron antes."

"Pues, no es nada. Debe quedar aquí, conmigo."

Okay, I'm completely lost, I've no idea what they are saying now.

(Obviously, on other occasions, another character would translate, and eventually they started messaging each other and using Google Translate.)

Recently, in Four weddings and a leaving do, I had some German dialogue and I tried to make the gist of what had been said clear by the responses of the characters. e.g.

"You are most welcome, Steffi. I'm sorry this is the first time we're meeting."

"What? Sorry, slower please?" she asked.

"Er... Es tut mir leid. Dass wir zum ersten Mal begegnen," I stumbled out.

Dora's mouth dropped open in shock. "Was?! Ich glaube, ich spinne! Wann hast du Deutsch gelernt?"

I tried to explain that I'd been taking evening classes for something to do - "Well, I visit Germany at least twice a year it seems" - but I soon slipped back into English. I was only at A2 level, if that, and even Steffi's shaky English was better than my German, let alone Dora's near native level of proficiency.

(Of course, not everyone can make the connection. A reader on Wattpad commented on the German lines saying I should provide a translation. I replied: Dude, it's like in the very next paragraph!)

Both stories have proved reasonably popular with my readership; the use of original, untranslated other languages didn't seem to bother them.

However, probably by far my most popular use of a foreign language was when I had one of my characters speak Lugandan so that nobody around her would understand what she was saying. For this, I just provided an italicised substitution because I really wanted the readers to know the content of the conversation.

Nobody in the lounge, most likely nobody on the whole ship, will understand my words.

"Ram, my heart," I say in Lugandan, my grammar awkward, my meaning clear, "I want you to take off my clothes. Here. Now."

She looks at me startled. I hold my finger to my lips.

"Ram, I want you to make me naked. Tie my hands. On my knees." A woman across from us looks at me, puzzled, probably trying to guess the language.

Quite a few comments mentioned that particular scene positively.

So, there's lots of ways you can do it. The question is: what do you want to achieve by it?

 

[YmaOHyd]

Good question.

A quick look suggests that he did not use them. But one theory is that it was because doing so was more expensive with traditional typesetting.

He uses them, at least in the current Kindle edition.

'I thank you indeed, Gildor Inglorion,' said Frodo bowing. 'Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting,' he added in the High-elven speech.

Or when Treebeard speaks:

What are you doing in it all? I can see and hear (and smell and feel) a great deal from this, from this, from this a-lalla-lalla-rumba-kamanda-lind-or-burume. Excuse me, that is a part of my name for it; I do not know what the word is in the outside languages.

Other words, like lembas and eored, are italicized throughout.

 

[TheWorldBuilder]

Good question.

A quick look suggests that he did not use them. But one theory is that it was because doing so was more expensive with traditional typesetting.

I can't remember precisely how much Quenya and Sindarin was included in Hobbit and the Ring trilogy, or whether it was introduced in later works such as Silmarilion.

 

[TheLobster]

I think in some cases the use of italics is a sign to the reader that it's okay that they don't understand the italicized text.

I think this is the key, more so that any formal rules. Italics are used for multiple different purposes, so it's not always clear which one is meant; but regardless of the specifics, it is always to make the text stand out and make it feel special, i.e., different that the normal typesetting.

"You are not supposed to understand this, just go with it" is as good a purpose as any. I've done it myself, in the story I alluded to earlier, and I think it worked well enough.

 

[Writer61]

I can't remember precisely how much Quenya and Sindarin was included in Hobbit and the Ring trilogy, or whether it was introduced in later works such as Silmarilion.

Odd words, IIRC.

 

[YmaOHyd]

Odd words, IIRC.

And much of it is in poetry and song, which is italicized throughout regardless of language.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

This is often more a political than a literary question. Here's a short poem that makes this point in a rather clever way:
http://cordite.org.au/poetry/brownface/kupu-rere-ke/

I think in some cases the use of italics is a sign to the reader that it's okay that they don't understand the italicized text.

This goes to the heart of the debate: who is your audience and what do you expect of them?

If you're writing for John Smith in Brattleboro, VT which has had 12,000 +/- 500 people since the 1950 census and 0.04% are Pacific Islanders, you probably need to italicize poke to make sure your reader hears it with two syllables. If you're writing for The New Yorker you don't. And if you're an African writing for American and European publishers because your own country has no publishing industry and dismal literacy rates, well, I imagine it's a rather painful question.

 

[old_prof]

If you're writing for John Smith in Brattleboro, VT which has had 12,000 +/- 500 people since the 1950 census and 0.04% are Pacific Islanders, you probably need to italicize poke to make sure your reader hears it with two syllables.

I just want to stand up for Brattleboro. Last I knew, there were two poke restaurants in Brattleboro, but it looks like one may have closed. That's actually a pretty high rate for its population and indicates that most residents are probably familiar with the concept, despite their lily white population statistics. Small town USA is not necessarily as out of touch as Manhattanites like to assume.